836 réponses à ce sujet

[Akka le Vil]

Lightice_av wrote...

I never said that in averages a man
is stronger than a woman; just that a trained female combatant can take
on a trained male combatant and win.

And as I say : compare two comparable averages. You pointed yourself that the women in military are even more special relative to women, than men in military are relative to other men.
So, to take completely made-up numbers, if only the top 2 % of women make it in in the military, compare them to the top 2 % of men, not the top 10 % who make in into the military.

And of course a trained woman can take a trained man. Anything can happen in a fight, again. I'll still, on average, keep my bet on the man, by a large amount.

MKATAKM wrote...

ERJAK2 said something different, claimed that having less muscles meant being faster. That didn't sound logical to me. If it is true than you may be right. Since you are the martial arts expert among us, what do you think?

Depends on what she meant.
It could be somehow true if she was just talking about the volume (developping the volume can in fact decrease the speed).
It's false if she was talking in general. Speed is a characteristic muscles have - it's mostly a gift, though you can train it. The biggest increase in speed you can get is in fast simply through making your movements as "pure" as possible, not through having cat-like reflexes.
If your muscles are "fast", it's actually a decrease in your speed to have less - the less you have, the less force they can pass through your limbs, and hence you get a limit on your speed.

Lightice_av wrote...

Yes, because
they've degenerated into shows of strength. In many martial arts mixed gender fights are quite common, and predicting the end result by the gender alone is precacious business indeed.

I'll have to get more than your word only to believe it

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 03 mars 2010 - 01:38 .

[The Angry One]

Zyrious wrote...

Besides, just because both shepards got into N7 doesnt mean they're equal. It just means they both meet the requirements for N7. it doesnt mean N7 male shepard and N7 female shepard are equal.

N7 is the best of the best of the best. The highest grade of the special forces. I'm afraid it does, especially as.. THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON.

[Lightice_av]

In the US Military females have lower requirements. Then again, women arent allowed into combat positions, either.

Former true, latter only technically true since these days the "supportive troops" get into combat all the time, and plenty of women have a great deal of combat experience in the US army. Mos other Western armies have no such restrictions.

Besides, just because both shepards got into N7 doesnt mean they're equal. It just means they both meet the requirements for N7. it doesnt mean N7 male shepard and N7 female shepard are equal.

But they are. Check yourself: play the game as MShep and FShep. Which one is more difficult? Oh, they have exactly the same difficulty? Well, that's because they are equal!

[MKATAKM]

The Angry One wrote...

MKATAKM wrote...

Strength is part of the COMBAT ABILITY. All I am saying is since they have different genders as a single difference, they have different strengths and hence different COMBAT ABILITIES. I think this is where we don't agree which really is a too moot a point to further discuss on.

Raw strength isn't part of any combat ability, it's how you use it. If ManShep has more raw strength and less agility, and FemShep has the reverse, then in the end they are about equal.

I hope you don't mean that you can still have some serious combat ability even when you have zero raw strength.
If you are saying that more raw strength DOES mean less agility, then I should accept it for now since I know very few about martial arts. Still it doesn't sound very convincing to me though.

[Akka le Vil]

The Angry One wrote...

Raw strength isn't part of any combat ability

Yes it is. You're nonsensical.

[The Angry One]

MKATAKM wrote...

I hope you don't mean that you can still have some serious combat ability even when you have zero raw strength.
If you are saying that more raw strength DOES mean less agility, then I should accept it for now since I know very few about martial arts. Still it doesn't sound very convincing to me though.

I'm not saying zero raw strength, obviously it is a factor. But how that strength is used is more important, and a woman like FemShep has obviously been trained to use her strength to it's peak.
The fact that she'd have more agility serves to balance whatever more raw strength ManShep has.

[The Angry One]

Akka le Vil wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Raw strength isn't part of any combat ability

Yes it is. You're nonsensical.

Quotes out of context 101.

[tropicalwave]

@Zyrious I'm just asking that since they both graduated from the most elite combat training in the Alliance (I believe at the top of their class) if they are different in anyway other than sex. I was also pointing out that this is a future where genetics have been enhanced and the human race is becoming more and more homogenized.



I'm thinking that they would have to meet the same requirements in all regards since it is an elite combat force. I also think since it is in the future and we have advanced tech they are equal in strength..

[Zyrious]

The Angry One wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Besides, just because both shepards got into N7 doesnt mean they're equal. It just means they both meet the requirements for N7. it doesnt mean N7 male shepard and N7 female shepard are equal.

N7 is the best of the best of the best. The highest grade of the special forces. I'm afraid it does, especially as.. THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON.

I'm sorry, i dont see the logic. Both shepards are better than everyone else. But that doesnt mean they are both completely equal. Male shep may be stronger than female shep, but female shep is still stronger than all her peers. Remember, Female shep wasnt competing with Male shep for N7. If she was, she might've not gotten it.

[Lightice_av]

I hope you don't mean that you can still have some serious combat ability even when you have zero raw strength.

Unlikely, but raw strength helps only to a certain point. Endurance is a far bigger issue in the long run, anyway.

If you are saying that more raw strength DOES mean less agility, then I should accept it for now since I know very few about martial arts.

If you have a great deal more muscle mass, then it can take more time for you to stop and turn because of mass and momentum. But more importantly a person who has a natural disadvantage in strength is more likely to train her agility further, since no similiar restriction applies there.

I'm sorry, i dont see the logic. Both shepards are better than
everyone else. But that doesnt mean they are both completely equal.
Male shep may be stronger than female shep, but female shep is still
stronger than all her peers. Remember, Female shep wasnt competing with
Male shep for N7. If she was, she might've not gotten it.

 
Female Shepard is exactly as good as male Shepard. Play the game on both; it's just as easy. This means they're just as good.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 03 mars 2010 - 01:43 .

[Esker02]

Lightice_av wrote...

A woman can punch hard enough to knock a man out. This is a fact that I'd like to see you prove wrong. Yes, a man can potentially punch harder, but knocked out is knocked out, regardless.

Ok - well, first I want to point out the fault in logic in you asking me to prove a negative. Proper procedure has you, actually, being the one who has to prove that a woman CAN punch hard enough to knock a man out. But I've never said that this isn't the case - I only agreed with TC insofar as it doesn't appear FemShep is the sort of woman who has such strength, in that she appears to be physically fit, sure, but not possessing the kind of strength I think we can both agree that it would take to actually knock somebody out.

[The Angry One]

Zyrious wrote...

I'm sorry, i dont see the logic. Both shepards are better than everyone else. But that doesnt mean they are both completely equal. Male shep may be stronger than female shep, but female shep is still stronger than all her peers. Remember, Female shep wasnt competing with Male shep for N7. If she was, she might've not gotten it.

Good lord this is nonsensical.
I'm saying ManShep's more raw strength isn't a deciding factor, because both have the strength and ability to reach N7. That means FemShep competed against male peers who would also have more raw strength, your assumption that ManShep must be significantly stronger than these other men is faulty.

[Akka le Vil]

ERJAK2 wrote...

It's not necessarily true, but in a case like this, yes it would be. The lower weight combined with less muscle(which besides being heavy muscle does contrict motion to a degree) Giiving femshep the edge in speed. As long as their techniques are equal, it would be a draw.

/facepalm

You wishing nature works like that doesn't make it so. It's not even Biology 101, it's sheer absurdity.

[Goat_Shepard]

The Angry One wrote...

As an aside if we're talking about Sheploo I bet FemShep would break that prettyboy glass jaw of his in one punch, but that's another issue entirely.

Why bring my Sheploo into this?  

[Zyrious]

Esker02 wrote...

Lightice_av wrote...

A woman can punch hard enough to knock a man out. This is a fact that I'd like to see you prove wrong. Yes, a man can potentially punch harder, but knocked out is knocked out, regardless.

Ok - well, first I want to point out the fault in logic in you asking me to prove a negative. Proper procedure has you, actually, being the one who has to prove that a woman CAN punch hard enough to knock a man out. But I've never said that this isn't the case - I only agreed with TC insofar as it doesn't appear FemShep is the sort of woman who has such strength, in that she appears to be physically fit, sure, but not possessing the kind of strength I think we can both agree that it would take to actually knock somebody out.

And it's not as easy to knock someone out as everyone here is making it out to be. It's not like hollywood where you hit them with a 2x4 and they're out. A lot of people can be beaten to near death and still be concious or even still standing.

[Lightice_av]

But I've never said that this isn't the case - I only agreed with TC insofar as it doesn't appear FemShep is the sort of woman who has such strength, in that she appears to be physically fit, sure, but not possessing the kind of strength I think we can both agree that it would take to actually knock somebody out.

First, I disagree that FShep wouldn't look like a fit person; you never see her skin enough to determine that closely, in any case. And second, even a woman who isn't highly fit can knock a guy out if she throws a real, proper punch. 

And it's not as easy to knock someone out as everyone here is making it out to be.

 
Depends on where you hit, and how. Cause a good concussion, and you're done.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 03 mars 2010 - 01:46 .

[Akka le Vil]

MKATAKM wrote...

If you are saying that more raw strength DOES mean less agility, then I should accept it for now since I know very few about martial arts. Still it doesn't sound very convincing to me though.

It's not convincing because it's false.

[The Angry One]

Akka le Vil wrote...

MKATAKM wrote...

If you are saying that more raw strength DOES mean less agility, then I should accept it for now since I know very few about martial arts. Still it doesn't sound very convincing to me though.

It's not convincing because it's false.

Are you seriously saying that more muscle mass and weight don't lead to less agility?
Have you seen heavyweight boxers fight?

[Lightice_av]

It's not convincing because it's false.

Greater muscle mass can lead to lesser agility because of more mass and momentum at work, but it's not an absolute directly compareable rule.

[superimposed]

Zyrious wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Besides, just because both shepards got into N7 doesnt mean they're equal. It just means they both meet the requirements for N7. it doesnt mean N7 male shepard and N7 female shepard are equal.

N7 is the best of the best of the best. The highest grade of the special forces. I'm afraid it does, especially as.. THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON.

I'm sorry, i dont see the logic. Both shepards are better than everyone else. But that doesnt mean they are both completely equal. Male shep may be stronger than female shep, but female shep is still stronger than all her peers. Remember, Female shep wasnt competing with Male shep for N7. If she was, she might've not gotten it.

It does mean they're equal, as it's in the coding.

[Zyrious]

superimposed wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Besides, just because both shepards got into N7 doesnt mean they're equal. It just means they both meet the requirements for N7. it doesnt mean N7 male shepard and N7 female shepard are equal.

N7 is the best of the best of the best. The highest grade of the special forces. I'm afraid it does, especially as.. THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON.

I'm sorry, i dont see the logic. Both shepards are better than everyone else. But that doesnt mean they are both completely equal. Male shep may be stronger than female shep, but female shep is still stronger than all her peers. Remember, Female shep wasnt competing with Male shep for N7. If she was, she might've not gotten it.

It does mean they're equal, as it's in the coding.

Well if you want to meta-game it then yes, they are both exactly the same except for the model and VA files. lol...

[tropicalwave]

Yes and if you believe Hollywood you could be hit with a bottle and it would shatter and you could be thrown through a plate glass window and not get seriously cut or even killed. But I'd rather watch a Hollywood film then a real scene (been there done that, patched them up... not fun!)

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Wow, this thread is just terrible. You people do realize that most of the force of a punch is provided by the footing you have, not the mass of the person delivering it? It's easier if you weigh more, hardly necessary. You also don't put on muscle mass *in your face*. Being hit in the face hurts no matter how badass you are, whether you can shrug it off easily is what experience grants you.

[Goat_Shepard]

Seriously the whole "they're exactly the same" makes me picture MaleShep as Mr. Garrison after his sex-change: "So you're saying I'm still a man, just with a mutilated penis!".

[Akka le Vil]

Lightice_av wrote...

Unlikely, but raw strength helps only to a certain point. Endurance is a far bigger issue in the long run, anyway.

For endurance being a issue, the fight has to last long enough for fatigue to enter in the equation
Not that I dispute that endurance is important, though.

If you have a great deal more muscle mass, then it can take more time for you to stop and turn because of mass and momentum. But more importantly a person who has a natural disadvantage in strength is more likely to train her agility further, since no similiar restriction applies there.

That's completely nonsensical. Repeating the absurdity that others started doesn't make them truer. Agility and strength are unrelated, and are not, unlike what video game and action movie let think, mutually exclusive - though yes you CAN lose agility if you train inadequately while trying to improve your strength. But that's a result of inadequate training, not a naturally exclusive condition.