121 réponses à ce sujet

[Daeion]

KnotEngaged wrote...

Here's an idea...who cares?!?!
Did anyone really run into that much trouble with running out of thermal clips that it absolutely ruined the game for them? If you did, guess what? You're doing it wrong!

I could say they same thing about people who complained about unlimited ammo....

[Daeion]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I understand the idea behind thermal clips and not having to wait for a gun to cool down during a fight, but a gun should still cool down and I should regain a certain number of shots over time.

The answer is simple.  The gun's VI is designed to not let the gun fire without being able to draw coolant fromt he heat sink in order to prevent damage to the weapon.  Exactly how it worked in ME1.  It really doesn't matter.  Unless you're shooting randomly with the Carnifex or Sniper, in this system, you should never run out of ammo.

That to me seems like poor weapon design.  If you're building a weapon for people who may have to go extended periods of time without being able to find thermal clips, then you'd want to allow for the weapon to cool down and for them to be able to get a few shots off before overheating again.

Who said I ran out of ammo?  I'm talking about from story/lore perspecitve, if i realy cared enough about unlimited ammo I would just mod my game...

Point taken.  However, if you manage to shoot several hundred rounds and the battle isn't over, something is wrong, or you're just shooting into the air.  The standard weapon for a soldier is the Assault Rifle, which holds a heck of a lot more ammunition(or heat sinks in this case) than anything else does.  I understand what you're getting at, but other than rare occasions, you shouldn't ever end up trapped and without a thermal clip. 

Think about it in modern terms, soldiers only carry a couple spare magazines for each weapon.  Most firefights should be long over before you run out.  Just like in ME, most combat in the galaxy isn't going to be fought on the ground.  Fleet vs Fleet is the most common, with the winner being able to bombard the opposing side from orbit.  It's not like WWII where everyone has to go in on foot and rely solely on their rifles.

I guess I'm more thinking about long range patrols or sole survivor types of situations where you might be stuck out in the field for an extended period of time and have very few resources or chances to get new resources.  I look at it as they already made weapons that could cool themselves, and I "understand" lore wise why they changed to thermal clips but I guess I would just think the ability to fire at least a few shots without a clip would be something you would keep.

Modifié par Daeion, 03 mars 2010 - 01:24 .

[Lambu1]

Daeion wrote...

I guess I'm more thinking about long range patrols or sole survivor types of situations where you be stuck out in the field for an extended period of time and have very few resources or chances to get new resources.  I look at it as they already made weapons that could cool themselves, and I "understand" lore wise why they changed to thermal clips but I guess I would just think the ability to fire at least a few shots without a clip would be something you would keep.

i imagine that for such a mission you would go out with as much ammo as you could carry, or there are self-cooling versions still available that are only used for special extended missions.
also the amount of ammo you carry ingame doesn't necessarily reflect the amount you could carry in "real life"

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

so why do we use guns that have such small clips? why not just use an m16 than?
They make guns with 5000 round ammo clips, but only 20 shots in the cooling clip.... why bother with the ammo clip, just put the ammo inside the cooling clip. make the gun lighter.

The hell are you talking about?  The standard rifle we(USA) use today in the military is the M4, and it only holds 30 rounds.  The standard ME rifle is the Avenger, which holds more shots per thermal clip than that.  Not to mention that conventional weapons shoot at much slower velocity, and would do practically nothing to Kinetic Barriers. 

The reason they change thermal clips instead of ammo is simply because it was an evolution of the tech.  The weapons generated lots of heat and needed to be cooled.  It turned out that disposable heat sinks were more effective for getting large amounts of ammo downrange.  If they changed the system to modern-day ammo clips, the heat build up doesn't change, and the gun will still need to cool somehow.

[CmdrFenix83]

Lambu1 wrote...

superimposed wrote...


Next time you try to show someone up, make sure you don't make an idiot of yourself. Seriously, go internets MOAR and you'll find it was a reference to an earlier comment about that same smiley.

wat?
i know all the references being made to that pic, i posted it.

walken atempt 2, better?


edit: for those who didn't get the first saying

Happy wizard approves. 

[CmdrFenix83]

Daeion wrote...

I guess I'm more thinking about long range patrols or sole survivor types of situations where you be stuck out in the field for an extended period of time and have very few resources or chances to get new resources.  I look at it as they already made weapons that could cool themselves, and I "understand" lore wise why they changed to thermal clips but I guess I would just think the ability to fire at least a few shots without a clip would be something you would keep.

I definitely would understand keeping a sidearm with that capability, definitely.  Republic Commando did something similar with their ammo system.  Expendable except the pistol.  Problem is, in-game, the pistol is a primary weapon for some classes, and it ends up needing the same ammo system.  I do agree though, a weaker pistol with the old heat system would have been great lore-wise.

[Daeion]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I guess I'm more thinking about long range patrols or sole survivor types of situations where you be stuck out in the field for an extended period of time and have very few resources or chances to get new resources.  I look at it as they already made weapons that could cool themselves, and I "understand" lore wise why they changed to thermal clips but I guess I would just think the ability to fire at least a few shots without a clip would be something you would keep.

I definitely would understand keeping a sidearm with that capability, definitely.  Republic Commando did something similar with their ammo system.  Expendable except the pistol.  Problem is, in-game, the pistol is a primary weapon for some classes, and it ends up needing the same ammo system.  I do agree though, a weaker pistol with the old heat system would have been great lore-wise.

I still don't see why everyone can't use the AR.  BW is telling me that my ME Adept who was trained with the AR all of a sudden forgot how to use it but learned how to use a nuke gun?  This is one of the reasons I miss the ME leveling trees.

[Lambu1]

Daeion wrote...

I still don't see why everyone can't use the AR.  BW is telling me that my ME Adept who was trained with the AR all of a sudden forgot how to use it but learned how to use a nuke gun?  This is one of the reasons I miss the ME leveling trees.

 yeah this part does seem silly especially considering that todays US military trains everyone in the use of the M16/M4 before training in specialized weapons.

adept "i can knock someone to the ground at a distance with my powers but can't shoot an AR to save my life"   just doesn't make sense

[Daeion]

Lambu1 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I still don't see why everyone can't use the AR.  BW is telling me that my ME Adept who was trained with the AR all of a sudden forgot how to use it but learned how to use a nuke gun?  This is one of the reasons I miss the ME leveling trees.

 yeah this part does seem silly especially considering that todays US military trains everyone in the use of the M16/M4 before training in specialized weapons.

adept "i can knock someone to the ground at a distance with my powers but can't shoot an AR to save my life"   just doesn't make sense

Especially considering how you need to take down enemy defenses before you can use your biotics now, you'd think people would really get training in the AR.

[ccconda]

It's more of a "Im a soldier who uses powers a lot, but doesnt really like using rifles at all. If I were put into a videogame, they'd probably classify me as an "adept" "

[Multifarious Algorithm]

The military trains everyone to use an assault rifle, but it doesn't mean they're all going to equally good at it. Applied practice is important - soldier Shepard has spent his entire life in combat situations using ARs. An Adept on the other hand received the training, but has then gone on to spend their entire career becoming combat proficient with their powers, not with assault rifles.

[Lambu1]

hmm, that does make some sense. but on the other hand, snipers and machine gunners can still pick up an AR and be proficient with it. of course, this could be used to explain your bonus weapon selection on the collector ship

[CmdrFenix83]

Daeion wrote...

I still don't see why everyone can't use the AR.  BW is telling me that my ME Adept who was trained with the AR all of a sudden forgot how to use it but learned how to use a nuke gun?  This is one of the reasons I miss the ME leveling trees.

Well, I can understand your point, but that leaves the Soldier with little to no benefits over other classes, and makes it essentially obsolete.  The ME1 leveling trees were god-aweful for weaponry.  It made no sense that for any class they loaded in as if they had picked up one of these guns for the first time instead of being the elite of the elite graduate from the Alliance's N7 program.

[james halomasteer]

thermal klips waz a bad idea just go back to the more controllable overheat system

[Lambu1]

[Amethyst Deceiver]

thermal clips makes more sense if they self cool eventually.



they should have made a hybrid system that combine both ME1 and ME2. where the gun can theoretically fire infinitely if set up properly, at the cost of a reduced rate of fire (scram rail/heat sink, etc).



and if you wanted to set up your gun with more power but quick overheat you would have to expend thermal clips to reload the heat.



to tweak this system from a gameplay standpoint, the overheat should take slightly longer to cool down than it did in ME1 and thermal clips would be way less prominent of a drop item than in ME2.



but regardless, even with ejectable thermal clips, they should still have a natural cooldown.



and for the love of god, please bring back the modular customization. wtf

[Mnemnosyne]

ccconda wrote...

Bioware simply could've scrapped that "4000 bullets" idea, rather than create the convoluted "thermal clip" codex entry.
"While these new ammo blocks contain only a fraction of the capacity that pre-invasion ammo blocks contained, these new ammo blocks are made entirely of frictionless materials which pack a much greater punch. The frictionless design negates the need to cool down the chamber, allowing soldiers to continue firing and reloading when needed, improving the performance of armed units in high pressure situations. The increased power of each shot has also helped armed forces maintain their position in battle against multiple defense types."

This would have been a great idea.  It would actually make sense instead of being retardedly stupid like the thermal clip nonsense is.

I think I will try to imagine that this is the real reason I need ammo from now on, maybe it'll make it more palatable.

[kregano]

From what I understand, the reason a hybrid system wasn't employed in ME2 had something to do with the play testers not liking the system because they would just go through clips until they were down to their last one and then had to deal with the cool down if they couldn't get a new clip. Christina Norman confirmed this back on the old forum, right before it shut down.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

kregano wrote...

From what I understand, the reason a hybrid system wasn't employed in ME2 had something to do with the play testers not liking the system because they would just go through clips until they were down to their last one and then had to deal with the cool down if they couldn't get a new clip. Christina Norman confirmed this back on the old forum, right before it shut down.

...up the frequency of the clip drops?

wtf kind of logic is this.

so with the current system, you run out of thermal clips and then what. use harsh language? thats WORSE. you cant even wait til you cool down, you have to scrounge for another clip.

they obviously upped the thermal clip drop rate for the final version so why couldnt they have just upped the rate for the hybrid system. ***ing retarded bull*** excuse

Modifié par Amethyst Deceiver, 03 mars 2010 - 03:14 .

[KalosCast]

kregano wrote...

From what I understand, the reason a hybrid system wasn't employed in ME2 had something to do with the play testers not liking the system because they would just go through clips until they were down to their last one and then had to deal with the cool down if they couldn't get a new clip. Christina Norman confirmed this back on the old forum, right before it shut down.

I don't see what's wrong with that, I'd like that system...

[CmdrFenix83]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

kregano wrote...

From what I understand, the reason a hybrid system wasn't employed in ME2 had something to do with the play testers not liking the system because they would just go through clips until they were down to their last one and then had to deal with the cool down if they couldn't get a new clip. Christina Norman confirmed this back on the old forum, right before it shut down.

...up the frequency of the clip drops?

wtf kind of logic is this.

so with the current system, you run out of thermal clips and then what. use harsh language? thats WORSE. you cant even wait til you cool down, you have to scrounge for another clip.

they obviously upped the thermal clip drop rate for the final version so why couldnt they have just upped the rate for the hybrid system. ***ing retarded bull*** excuse

The reason there's no hybrid system is that the cooldown method would be superfluous.  There's no need for it.  Unless you're just throwing shots away at nothing, you shouldn't run out of ammo, ever.  Stop using the Widow/Mantis for every single kill.  That's why it's not in game, because it's unnecessary.  It was a game mechanic choice that never needing to reload was dumb, so they got rid of it.  There's enough clips lying around that ammo isn't a problem.

[KalosCast]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

kregano wrote...

From what I understand, the reason a hybrid system wasn't employed in ME2 had something to do with the play testers not liking the system because they would just go through clips until they were down to their last one and then had to deal with the cool down if they couldn't get a new clip. Christina Norman confirmed this back on the old forum, right before it shut down.

...up the frequency of the clip drops?

wtf kind of logic is this.

so with the current system, you run out of thermal clips and then what. use harsh language? thats WORSE. you cant even wait til you cool down, you have to scrounge for another clip.

they obviously upped the thermal clip drop rate for the final version so why couldnt they have just upped the rate for the hybrid system. ***ing retarded bull*** excuse

The reason there's no hybrid system is that the cooldown method would be superfluous.  There's no need for it.  Unless you're just throwing shots away at nothing, you shouldn't run out of ammo, ever.  Stop using the Widow/Mantis for every single kill.  That's why it's not in game, because it's unnecessary.  It was a game mechanic choice that never needing to reload was dumb, so they got rid of it.  There's enough clips lying around that ammo isn't a problem.

If there's enough ammo that you never run out, what's the point of restricting it with an incredibly stupid lore handwave to begin with? It's still infinite.

[kregano]

KalosCast wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

kregano wrote...

From what I understand, the reason a hybrid system wasn't employed in ME2 had something to do with the play testers not liking the system because they would just go through clips until they were down to their last one and then had to deal with the cool down if they couldn't get a new clip. Christina Norman confirmed this back on the old forum, right before it shut down.

...up the frequency of the clip drops?

wtf kind of logic is this.

so with the current system, you run out of thermal clips and then what. use harsh language? thats WORSE. you cant even wait til you cool down, you have to scrounge for another clip.

they obviously upped the thermal clip drop rate for the final version so why couldnt they have just upped the rate for the hybrid system. ***ing retarded bull*** excuse

The reason there's no hybrid system is that the cooldown method would be superfluous.  There's no need for it.  Unless you're just throwing shots away at nothing, you shouldn't run out of ammo, ever.  Stop using the Widow/Mantis for every single kill.  That's why it's not in game, because it's unnecessary.  It was a game mechanic choice that never needing to reload was dumb, so they got rid of it.  There's enough clips lying around that ammo isn't a problem.

If there's enough ammo that you never run out, what's the point of restricting it with an incredibly stupid lore handwave to begin with? It's still infinite.

Ups the tension and reward when you manage to make an enemy drop with the last round in your thermal clip. Plus it incentivizes you to keep moving, instead of just holing up somewhere, firing a few rounds at the enemy, waiting for the cool down, and firing some more over and over.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

clips should have been a thing you keep around. like medigel.



you dont need medigel against normal enemies since you can regen it back. but you eventually take a beating in harder levels and against the husk swarms where you cant regen fast enough to live through it without gelling.



same goes for clips. you dont need them most of the time but when you are ripping it up against some krogan charging the **** out of you or a thick swarm of husk/thorian, you may need to reload in there somewhere.



also they could have easily implemented a deeper effect for the modular upgrades where using a scram rail would overheat a little more than ME1.



all it needed was a slight adjustment. not an overhaul.

[Kayback]

KnotEngaged wrote...

Here's an idea...who cares?!?!
Did anyone really run into that much trouble with running out of thermal clips that it absolutely ruined the game for them? If you did, guess what? You're doing it wrong!

Not wrong, Differently.

I don't get why everyone says "OMG! IT Addz to the game!". It honestly makes ME2 like every other shooter EVER made, except ME1.

I LIKED the idea there were no reloads. I honestly made ME1 different. As it is now, I can't tell the difference from most other games that involve shooting. Especiallyas it leads to many inconsistancies. Everyone in the universe uses the exact same cooling systems? Even mechs that could conceivably have a built in cooling system have them? Aliens from dark space use them? Heck there isn't one military on Earth today that uses the same ammo for their AR's as for their GPMG's and their handguns or sniper rifles, but in ME2 the ENTIRE GALAXY uses the same clips. Except they don't, because I can't use my sniper rifle clips in my handguns, but when I pick them up off the floor, they can fill any gap.

I honestly don't know what they teach people in the military in the future, but one tennent seems "never carry enough ammo". There aren't many missions in the game where you carry enough ammo off the bat. You pretty much HAVE to salvage ammo from the battlefield.

The Omnigel explanation is a pretty good one, and honestly one I never thought of. Like in ME1 you could melt anything down to Omnigel, hence it's name, it would be a good explanation why you can melt down other weapons or clips to make what you need. However that's pushing it a bit.


There was very little difference IMHO between being force to wait a cooldown period and having your character do a reload. Gameplay wise you are out of comission for the same ammount of time. It's probably more scrounging for ammo that annoys me. I've got an interstellar space ship with leather seats, but not enough ammo?

It might just be a gameplay mechanic to force you to move, but what if I don't WANT to move? I'm a sniper for crying out loud, why shouldn't   I use my sniper rifle for every kill? I shouldn't be rushing forwards to dominate place, or leave a hidey hole to get some more ammo. Especially as the microsecond you break cover, everyone turns and shoots at you. The sniper rifles (except what is it, the Viper?) don't carry enough ammo to be frontline weapons.

I like the idea behind a hybrid system. That actually sounds like their original idea, pity it was never executed.

Modifié par Kayback, 03 mars 2010 - 03:47 .