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Plot Holes: A serious discussion.


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#26
Guest_Maviarab_*

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Its not even a common thing to do with film. Its called having no life and being a troll.

I bet he/she is a riot to go to the cinema with...

Me - hope this film is a good as the reviews
Op - meh...prolly full of inconsistencies....
Me - well...Id still like to watch it...
Op - oh look at that...his watch is wrong way round...oh now its back right again
Me - can we just watch the fu**ing film please?
Op - hehe, her lipstick is normal again after that kiss
Me - FFS...strangles him/her in cinema

I mean why do people bother looking for them....what exactly is their major malfuction.....can you just not watch/enjoy without having to find fault?

Modifié par Maviarab, 02 mars 2010 - 11:42 .


#27
frokenscheim

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GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Here's one that bugged me, Garrus recruitment mission. You wipe out the local leaders of 3 major mercenary groups and people think that Archangel is the one who died? I've never had Garrus in my squad when I talk to Aria, is she clueless as well?


I assume the mercs were too embarrassed to admit they'd spent all those men for nothing, and since, dead or alive, Archangel wasn't around anymore they decided to just say he was dead.

#28
GenericPlayer2

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frokenscheim wrote...

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Here's one that bugged me, Garrus recruitment mission. You wipe out the local leaders of 3 major mercenary groups and people think that Archangel is the one who died? I've never had Garrus in my squad when I talk to Aria, is she clueless as well?


I assume the mercs were too embarrassed to admit they'd spent all those men for nothing, and since, dead or alive, Archangel wasn't around anymore they decided to just say he was dead.


I could buy that, but would have been nice for Aria to mention something to that effect.

#29
Daeion

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only thing I really consider a plot hole is the derelict reaper.

#30
kraidy1117

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Maviarab wrote...

Its not even a common thing to do with film. Its called having no life and being a troll.

I bet he/she is a riot to go to the cinema with...

Me - hope this film is a good as the reviews
Op - meh...prolly full of inconsistencies....
Me - well...Id still like to watch it...
Op - oh look at that...his watch is wrong way round...oh now its back right again
Me - can we just watch the fu**ing film please?
Op - hehe, her lipstick is normal again after that kiss
Me - FFS...strangles him/her in cinema

I mean why do people bother looking for them....what exactly is their major malfuction.....can you just not watch/enjoy without having to find fault?


This. Who cares if there is food in the cold or boxs in a room? The only thing that bugs me is Miri and some are running around in space with a breathing mask. That is a plothole!

#31
Daerog

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TheUnusualSuspect makes good points to the OP. The biggest plothole, I guess, is Jack and Samara being able to do crazy biotic stuff in cutscenes but not ingame, but that seems more like gameplay than a plothole in the story.

The Council denying Reapers never bothered me, as there was no clear evidence for them. Sovereign's body was mostly looted before they could see it, some of it was taken by Cerberus. I don't recall them denying the Collectors, but there isn't much evidence connecting Collectors to Reapers other than speculation and what Shepard witnesses. Video collected is just the Collectors, but that is handed to TIM and not the Council. Also, Cerberus can't give info to the Citadel as they are not trusted and would likely wish to keep some of the secrets to themselves.

Not saying there aren't plotholes, but I can see ways to excuse the listed points.

#32
TheLostGenius

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Daeion wrote...

only thing I really consider a plot hole is the derelict reaper.


How so? Shouldn't the entire crew have been indoctrinated?

It's actually a plot hole of the game at large, when Sovereign arrived in ME1 why didn't he indoctrinate the council/alliance ships. The mere presence of the ship can cause indoctrination to occur, why not weaponize it? I bet with a large enough fleet of Reaper's mass indoctrination would be a snap, and is probably what happened to the Protheans and prior races that were pulled into the Reaper's evolutionary puppets.

#33
intersect

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TheLostGenius wrote...

Daeion wrote...

only thing I really consider a plot hole is the derelict reaper.


How so? Shouldn't the entire crew have been indoctrinated?

It's actually a plot hole of the game at large, when Sovereign arrived in ME1 why didn't he indoctrinate the council/alliance ships. The mere presence of the ship can cause indoctrination to occur, why not weaponize it? I bet with a large enough fleet of Reaper's mass indoctrination would be a snap, and is probably what happened to the Protheans and prior races that were pulled into the Reaper's evolutionary puppets.


It always seemed to me that indoctrination was a subtle process over time, not a direct mental assault

#34
LoL

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LoL that thing about the auto pilot was retarded. >.< Honestly, you cannot prove that there arn't any survivors and it would be even weirder if they had to randomly say "let's turn on the auto pilot" Also, a press of the button could activate the auto pilot, so it may of have been in the cutscene. All in all, this "plot holes" discussion is about some stupid little detail that the DEVS didn't feel the need to put in. Stop your whining.

#35
Daeion

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TheLostGenius wrote...

Daeion wrote...

only thing I really consider a plot hole is the derelict reaper.


How so? Shouldn't the entire crew have been indoctrinated?

It's actually a plot hole of the game at large, when Sovereign arrived in ME1 why didn't he indoctrinate the council/alliance ships. The mere presence of the ship can cause indoctrination to occur, why not weaponize it? I bet with a large enough fleet of Reaper's mass indoctrination would be a snap, and is probably what happened to the Protheans and prior races that were pulled into the Reaper's evolutionary puppets.


I consider the derelict reaper to be a plot hole because at no point does shep go oh look, more evidence that Sovereign wasn't a Geth creation.  Shep should have contacted to the council and gotten them to send a science team out to investigate the reaper, at least then they wouldn't be to claim geth origin.  Also, indoctrination takes time, it's not something that happens right away, it takes time to break down your mind and then rebuild it.

Modifié par Daeion, 02 mars 2010 - 11:58 .


#36
contown

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Another one: why the hell can't you give the base to the council/alliance? Why the hell is it "blow up base or give it to a terrorist organization"? The Normandy is the only ship that can get to the base, and he has complete control over it. Only Shepard could decide who can acess it.



Also: if the reapers had the collectors, this massive army with advanced weaponry, why didn't Sovereign use this army to help him when he attacked the citadel... And lost?



Thirdly: Why are the reapers building a human-like reaper? In the first game, they showed nothing but disgust for organics. So why would they build a reaper exactly like an organic they hate so much? Machines are all about efficiency and logic. Why make a human-like machine? What'll it do, impress the council races with the size of its massive metal dong? That's adding organic gruff to what should be a proper machine. They're adding organic flaws to a synthetic.

#37
Daerog

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TheLostGenius wrote...

How so? Shouldn't the entire crew have been indoctrinated?

It's actually a plot hole of the game at large, when Sovereign arrived in ME1 why didn't he indoctrinate the council/alliance ships. The mere presence of the ship can cause indoctrination to occur, why not weaponize it? I bet with a large enough fleet of Reaper's mass indoctrination would be a snap, and is probably what happened to the Protheans and prior races that were pulled into the Reaper's evolutionary puppets.


Indoctrination isn't instant, takes a while. The scientists/researchers were there for some days before they were completely indoctrinated. Also, Indoctrination makes people absolute puppets who cannot function alone, which is why Saren wasn't fully indoctrinated.
So, Sovereign couldn't have indoctrinated the fleet at the Citadel, takes time and likely one has to be a certain distance from Sovereign, like inside or just near it.
This is explained at Virmire.
Few of the Protheans were indoctrinated compared to the whole civilization of the Protheans, but there were enough indoctrinated to sneak into bases and undo its security.

#38
TheLostGenius

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Indoctrination occurs in proximity but both Soverign and Harbinger prove through in game events that the can DIRECTLY control the minds of the subtly indoctrinated and even possess their bodies temporarily. Probably assuming total control of their genetic structure, since all "sapient" life evolves according to the implications of their technology. Remember Saren was only subtly influenced, and at the end game if your Paragon score is high enough its revealed that Saren was actually innocent, and had been indoctrinated only partially. The fully indoctrinated are like zombies, meaning the subtle form of indoctrination allows them to indirectly control people/aliens. Its possible that one or more of the Council member's ARE indoctrinated by an UNKNOWN Reaper. It's also possible that TIM is indoctrinated but is so strong willed that he thinks he is using the Reaper's to possess their technology for Human Domination...some of "setups" and TIM's information sources could only have come from the lion's mouth itself...

#39
Daeion

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contown wrote...
Also: if the reapers had the collectors, this massive army with advanced weaponry, why didn't Sovereign use this army to help him when he attacked the citadel... And lost?


Because Sovereign was going for the more subtle insider approach?

#40
TheLostGenius

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DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

How so? Shouldn't the entire crew have been indoctrinated?

It's actually a plot hole of the game at large, when Sovereign arrived in ME1 why didn't he indoctrinate the council/alliance ships. The mere presence of the ship can cause indoctrination to occur, why not weaponize it? I bet with a large enough fleet of Reaper's mass indoctrination would be a snap, and is probably what happened to the Protheans and prior races that were pulled into the Reaper's evolutionary puppets.


Indoctrination isn't instant, takes a while. The scientists/researchers were there for some days before they were completely indoctrinated. Also, Indoctrination makes people absolute puppets who cannot function alone, which is why Saren wasn't fully indoctrinated.
So, Sovereign couldn't have indoctrinated the fleet at the Citadel, takes time and likely one has to be a certain distance from Sovereign, like inside or just near it.
This is explained at Virmire.
Few of the Protheans were indoctrinated compared to the whole civilization of the Protheans, but there were enough indoctrinated to sneak into bases and undo its security.


Actually people can be instantaneously indoctrinated, however this turns them into husks. The powerful indoctrinated are slowly imbibed. The Reaper has the power to indoctrinate anyone/anybody no one is impervious to its suggestion. Making a cause that TIM is indoctrinated a plausible plot twist for the third game, and thus its possible that being a pawn of the indoctrinated means that you have been manipulated into its form of indoctrination.

#41
TheLostGenius

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Daeion wrote...

contown wrote...
Also: if the reapers had the collectors, this massive army with advanced weaponry, why didn't Sovereign use this army to help him when he attacked the citadel... And lost?


Because Sovereign was going for the more subtle insider approach?


It's also possible that the Collector's were "revived" by the Harbinger only very recently after Soverign's defeat after they realized the heretical Geth were not enough to overcome C. Sheperd, Alliance, Council, Cereberus or any interest that goes against the Reaper's which is pretty much all sentinent life in the Galaxy. Even though they like to pretend they don't exist.

#42
Daerog

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contown wrote...

Another one: why the hell can't you give the base to the council/alliance? Why the hell is it "blow up base or give it to a terrorist organization"? The Normandy is the only ship that can get to the base, and he has complete control over it. Only Shepard could decide who can acess it.

Also: if the reapers had the collectors, this massive army with advanced weaponry, why didn't Sovereign use this army to help him when he attacked the citadel... And lost?

Thirdly: Why are the reapers building a human-like reaper? In the first game, they showed nothing but disgust for organics. So why would they build a reaper exactly like an organic they hate so much? Machines are all about efficiency and logic. Why make a human-like machine? What'll it do, impress the council races with the size of its massive metal dong? That's adding organic gruff to what should be a proper machine. They're adding organic flaws to a synthetic.


1.) That is the major plothole, it's like the Rachni queen in ME1. Although giving it to the Alliance would be like giving it to Cerberus as it is completely infiltrated by Cerberus.
2.) Collectors are not an army, they have one ship and can not hope to stand against a real fleet of warships, why they weren't with Sovereign at first? Maybe Sovereign thought he didn't need them or didn't want to risk them if he could just use Geth instead.
3.) They are disgusted with organic life, sure, but they are not just organic species going off evolution. Human-like Reaper comes from resources used (humans) and would likely have been given a back shell thing like all the other Reapers in the end of its growth. Also, it wouldn't have a dong, it is just a skeleton. Also, there are some things organic material has over machines, having both is superior I suppose.

#43
Daeion

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TheLostGenius wrote...

Daeion wrote...

contown wrote...
Also: if the reapers had the collectors, this massive army with advanced weaponry, why didn't Sovereign use this army to help him when he attacked the citadel... And lost?


Because Sovereign was going for the more subtle insider approach?


It's also possible that the Collector's were "revived" by the Harbinger only very recently after Soverign's defeat after they realized the heretical Geth were not enough to overcome C. Sheperd, Alliance, Council, Cereberus or any interest that goes against the Reaper's which is pretty much all sentinent life in the Galaxy. Even though they like to pretend they don't exist.


If you read the 2nd ME book they talk about the collectors in it and one of the chars had dealings with them years before the book and the book takes place only a month after ME1.

#44
frokenscheim

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intersect wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Daeion wrote...

only thing I really consider a plot hole is the derelict reaper.


How so? Shouldn't the entire crew have been indoctrinated?

It's actually a plot hole of the game at large, when Sovereign arrived in ME1 why didn't he indoctrinate the council/alliance ships. The mere presence of the ship can cause indoctrination to occur, why not weaponize it? I bet with a large enough fleet of Reaper's mass indoctrination would be a snap, and is probably what happened to the Protheans and prior races that were pulled into the Reaper's evolutionary puppets.


It always seemed to me that indoctrination was a subtle process over time, not a direct mental assault


It's actually mentioned in a codex entry that rapid indoctrination is possible but extremely damaging to the subject, so they will only be useful for a very short time. Long, slow indoctrination results in a thrall that can be functional for months.

#45
GenericPlayer2

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What about the Cerberus people and the Turians that looted Sovereign. Why didn't they get Zombie'd like the IFF crew?

#46
Daerog

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TheLostGenius wrote...

It's also possible that the Collector's were "revived" by the Harbinger only very recently after Soverign's defeat after they realized the heretical Geth were not enough to overcome C. Sheperd, Alliance, Council, Cereberus or any interest that goes against the Reaper's which is pretty much all sentinent life in the Galaxy. Even though they like to pretend they don't exist.


Eh, I don't think they were recently "revived" as that one quarian guy, Goto? Godo? W/e. He was in the process of kidnapping quarians to give to the Collectors, but he was caught and exiled. This event happened either during or before ME1, since Ascension happens just after ME1, with the news footage in the beginning, and that exiled/evil quarian has been exiled for a bit.

#47
Daerog

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GenericPlayer2 wrote...

What about the Cerberus people and the Turians that looted Sovereign. Why didn't they get Zombie'd like the IFF crew?


Derelict was still whole and Sovereign was blown to bits? Just guesses, this is sci-fi, nothing is perfect and could be excused with some quickly made excuse that doesn't have to make sense in reality.

#48
mentosman8

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Let's see here...



1. I can agree with to an extent, BUT a plothole isn't made by a gameplay mechanic. At that rate, anyone who has ever died at some point during the game has created plotholes. gameplay=/=plot.



2.Various possibilities, even down to the fact that Wilson is explained to be the traitor, so would it really be so far-fetched that he, I dunno, shot himself to make him look better? Which doesn't even make Shepard look stupid, because when you're in a high stress life or death situation, you aren't always likely to notice the absence of evidence. Other reasons are given by TUS. Also possible, that like several mech's throughout the game, it blew up and there was no body left to be found.



3. Not a plothole. Very plausibly a VI autopilot that knows how to get from location to location, and completely insignificant to the story so does not really merit the addition of Shepard, who would know how the ship was flying, asking about such, nor even merit the scene being extended just so that Jacob or Miranda could say "Ok, autopilot's been set."



4.I live in Illinois, and have to deal with a lot of snow. I've seen it snowing heavily and accumulating when it's in the upper 30s. There is no indication that the temperature is too cold to be eating outside, especially considering I have, and have seen others, sitting around outside as temperatures dip into the teens and 20s. This is your personal opinion, not a plothole.



5. As TUS said, Miranda specifically states that Veetor must have re-assembled the data. It's even very possible that he was hiding and controlling the camera's during the attack, when they are usually cut off. Either way, Miranda's line explains it, considering someone actively piecing together data as things occur is going to have much better luck than someone going days later and trying to do so.



6. TUS explained. Regardless of Shepards background, he's on a Cerberus space station, and is told, "hey, this colony got attacked, why don't you go check it out, and if there's nothing there, you can leave." Shepard isn't going to look at him and say "nope, you just brought me back to life, and I'm on your space station with no feasible route of my own off it, and there's a colony that's been attacked, but I don't like you so I'm just gonna stay here until I think of a way to magically teleport to someone I do." It's not a plothole, because just like the prisoners on Purgatory, if you try to leave, where exactly are you gonna go?



7. Explained quite well if you listen to Liara later. Collector's wanted Shep's body, Shadow Broker had it stolen from him prior to selling it to them and would be interested. Made quite clear in the game that Shepard would fetch a high price.



8. It's called dramatic effect. Once again this stems to gameplay=/=plot/cinematics. If you're going to call this out as a plothole, are the several deaths in many cinematics where it only takes one shot to kill, let's say a Krogan to fully emphasize the point, plotholes? No. They're there to show the real effect of things, gameplay is there to give you a challenge. Regardless if Jack can take down 3 YMIR mechs alone or not, it would absolutely break the game to be able to do so. Is it a plothole that Thane can't kill multiple people before they know he's there? Is it a plothole that Garrus can't be told to get in cover at a bottleneck and have no one get near him? Or that Samara can't absolutely dominate every enemy with biotics? No, because if the characters could fight as well in gameplay as they could in cinematics, there would be no reason for there to be gameplay.



9. Don't see anything that you wrote there that is evidence of the Reapers? Proof of Collector attacks from Freedom's Progress/Horizon, doesn't say anything about Reapers... The DNA simply suggests that the Collectors are modified Protheans, doesn't incline to the Reapers at all. The derelict Reaper only you/Cerberus see before you blow it up to escape, so not sure how that's going to work as evidence since it's, ya know, blown up and crashed into a brown dwarf. Legion's comments mean nothing to them, because they have no reason to believe Legion. If you had been attacked by a group, then they come back and say that it wasn't their fault and the super-weapon wasn't their technology, are you going to believe them or refuse to be lulled into a state of, as far as you know, false security?

#49
Chronoflect99

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MasterSolo wrote...

Ah yes, plot holes. We have dismissed that claim.

Dude what is the point of the thread? So you are describing all of the plot holes in the game...so what? What is the point? Don't you have anything better to do?

Discussion? What else? At least this thread has more of a point than all the character fan threads.

#50
Vaenier

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Keep up the good work OP. dont let the nay sayers get ya down. There is no excuse for bad writing.