Some valid issues. It does bother me how the writers and developers seem to have aimed this game at 13 year olds rather than the minimum audience age the game is rated for.
-I looked up the Kodiak shuttle and it is supposed to have a both a pilot and copilot an mentions a VI but it didn’t say if the VI could pilot. It should be noted that we know at least a pilot is present at the end of Jack’s loyalty mission.
-That Wilson spot annoyed the hell out of me as well. All the dialog you get from him practically implicates him as the traitor and yet Shepard seems to be to stupid to notice something isn’t adding up. I figured he shot himself to make it look like a mech shot him but since the mechs you see in that level are rather thorough on eliminating people adding a simple “dead” mech in the room would have fixed this issue.
-I agree about the cut scene with Jack taking out the big YMIR mechs. The closest you see her showing that much power is if you use her as the biotic in the final battle and it still pales to the power that is implied she has in that scene. Must be nice to take out 3 or 4 of those things in a few seconds.
-As for the council, seeing as they spent the last 2 years getting rid of any evidence about the Reaper who attacked the station its not surprising that they don’t believe you about the Collectors/Prothean/Reaper connections. However it seems odd that they would resort to being complete morons and dismiss any evidence you present to them. You are the one who proved Saren turned traitor, allied himself with the Geth and a Reaper and oh yea, and you saved the freaking council (if you saved them) and pretty much the entire galaxy. The least they could do is say “we’ll look into it” they owe you that much.
Plot Holes: A serious discussion.
Débuté par
glacier1701
, mars 02 2010 11:05
Retour en haut
#52
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 12:38
mentosman8
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Darth Drago wrote...
-As for the council, seeing as they spent the last 2 years getting rid of any evidence about the Reaper who attacked the station its not surprising that they don’t believe you about the Collectors/Prothean/Reaper connections. However it seems odd that they would resort to being complete morons and dismiss any evidence you present to them. You are the one who proved Saren turned traitor, allied himself with the Geth and a Reaper and oh yea, and you saved the freaking council (if you saved them) and pretty much the entire galaxy. The least they could do is say “we’ll look into it” they owe you that much.
I just explained this: There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Reapers are connected to the Collectors. Just as there is no evidence the Keepers are connected to the Reapers, Just because we know otherwise doesn't mean there's anything that actually links the two.
#53
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 12:45
Thompson family
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The_Awesome_Sloth wrote...
in space, noone can hear you whine.
#54
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 12:47
TheLostGenius
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Daeion wrote...
TheLostGenius wrote...
Daeion wrote...
contown wrote...
Also: if the reapers had the collectors, this massive army with advanced weaponry, why didn't Sovereign use this army to help him when he attacked the citadel... And lost?
Because Sovereign was going for the more subtle insider approach?
It's also possible that the Collector's were "revived" by the Harbinger only very recently after Soverign's defeat after they realized the heretical Geth were not enough to overcome C. Sheperd, Alliance, Council, Cereberus or any interest that goes against the Reaper's which is pretty much all sentinent life in the Galaxy. Even though they like to pretend they don't exist.
If you read the 2nd ME book they talk about the collectors in it and one of the chars had dealings with them years before the book and the book takes place only a month after ME1.
Anything outside of the game is not canonical. Despite the publishers insistence.
#55
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 12:56
MikeFL25
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OP: Regardless of what others may say, I enjoyed reading these.
Yes, some are nitpicks, but that's fine. Some are very legitimate. I especially like your example of obtaining data from Freedom's Progress, and then you can't show it to the Council. It doesn't make sense.
Keep it up! Some may hate, but some like me will continue reading. Criticism of writing is the best way to ensure quality in the next installment.
Yes, some are nitpicks, but that's fine. Some are very legitimate. I especially like your example of obtaining data from Freedom's Progress, and then you can't show it to the Council. It doesn't make sense.
Keep it up! Some may hate, but some like me will continue reading. Criticism of writing is the best way to ensure quality in the next installment.
Modifié par MikeFL25, 03 mars 2010 - 12:57 .
#56
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:05
mentosman8
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MikeFL25 wrote...
Yes, some are nitpicks, but that's fine. Some are very legitimate. I especially like your example of obtaining data from Freedom's Progress, and then you can't show it to the Council. It doesn't make sense.
Why would you show them the data from Freedom's progress? If you go to talk to them, they NEVER deny the Collectors are behind the colony kidnappings when you tell them, and it's confirmed when Ash/Kaidan go to Horizon. It's not like the Collectors rode Harbinger to the planet and you have video of a Reaper, and since they don't disagree that the Collector's are behind it you would just be like "I HAVE PROOF!" "Shepard, we don't need proof that the Collectors are behind the abductions. That's exactly why we offered you reinstatement."
#57
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:06
Daeion
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TheLostGenius wrote...
Daeion wrote...
TheLostGenius wrote...
Daeion wrote...
contown wrote...
Also: if the reapers had the collectors, this massive army with advanced weaponry, why didn't Sovereign use this army to help him when he attacked the citadel... And lost?
Because Sovereign was going for the more subtle insider approach?
It's also possible that the Collector's were "revived" by the Harbinger only very recently after Soverign's defeat after they realized the heretical Geth were not enough to overcome C. Sheperd, Alliance, Council, Cereberus or any interest that goes against the Reaper's which is pretty much all sentinent life in the Galaxy. Even though they like to pretend they don't exist.
If you read the 2nd ME book they talk about the collectors in it and one of the chars had dealings with them years before the book and the book takes place only a month after ME1.
Anything outside of the game is not canonical. Despite the publishers insistence.
So does that mean anything outside of the 6 star wars movies isn't canonical even though they get approved by Lucas? So are you also saying the Liara comic isn't canon? The books are all written by Drew, you know, the lead writter for ME?
Modifié par Daeion, 03 mars 2010 - 01:07 .
#58
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:34
Singu
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I think a plot hole has a rather wide meaning, and that some of the people here should work a bit better at explaining the points in the OP than trying to have a big debate about the term itself. Wether you want to call it an inconsistency, implausible, plot hole or whatever term of describing something that makes no sense within the context that it's presented is irrelevant IMO.
However, it seems like a folly to dissect a game like Mass Effect 2 on the level that the OP has done. It's enveloping the entire galaxy 150 years into the future. If all you can do is wonder 'who's flying that shuttle?' and not take in the elements the creators put in the scene to propel the story then I feel sorry for you. I was more interested in who Miranda and Jacob was at this point than to wonder who or what was flying the shuttle. It's not Band of Brothers in space where you have 12 different science fiction experts guding the script writers from scene to scene.
I'm sure there are bigger plot holes in the game though that can be discussed. I remember wondering if Shepard actually penetrated the atmosphere of Alchera - since it looks like he's actually falling downwards in a deorbiting trajectory. And if so what the dense methane and ammonia atmosphere would do to a human body when it re-entered at whatever was terminal velocity on such a planet 1.7 times the mass of earth. His helmet could have re-entered during the 2 years of the Lazarus project - and Shadow Broker/Liara/TIM could've simply picked the lifeless form out of the orbit it was traveling in.
Wether some sod ate his lunch in freezing weather on Freedoms Progress(we never learn anything about the planet it's located on) or if it was balmy spring weather when the Collectors attacked is less of a plot hole to me, but then again - I don't know what breaks the immersion of another player. For Bioware to cater to the countless of different experiences to keep our immersion they would have to make a game that no-one would buy and would never be completed I think
All in all I enjoyed the game on the premises given by Bioware. I have to do it since I think the redeeming qualities of the game far outweighs the few points of it that rubbed me as a player the wrong way. I think most points in the OP could be considered plot holes, but I acknowledge that they're personal opinions on the plot more than major points in the story that tear it apart for a majority of the players. I don't know if such points exist within the game, but having a discussion about those is healthy for inspiring Bioware to make a better ME3 - and I think there are several threads in here that deals with potential candidates for serious plot holes allready.
I hope Bioware aren't be immune to our constructive criticism and at the same time that we should tolerate other players for not having the same experience after having played the game. Which leaves it up to us to try to make the criticism as contructive as possible and not berate others for having another experience from playing the game without countering their criticism with emotional responces instead of trying to disproof it.
However, it seems like a folly to dissect a game like Mass Effect 2 on the level that the OP has done. It's enveloping the entire galaxy 150 years into the future. If all you can do is wonder 'who's flying that shuttle?' and not take in the elements the creators put in the scene to propel the story then I feel sorry for you. I was more interested in who Miranda and Jacob was at this point than to wonder who or what was flying the shuttle. It's not Band of Brothers in space where you have 12 different science fiction experts guding the script writers from scene to scene.
I'm sure there are bigger plot holes in the game though that can be discussed. I remember wondering if Shepard actually penetrated the atmosphere of Alchera - since it looks like he's actually falling downwards in a deorbiting trajectory. And if so what the dense methane and ammonia atmosphere would do to a human body when it re-entered at whatever was terminal velocity on such a planet 1.7 times the mass of earth. His helmet could have re-entered during the 2 years of the Lazarus project - and Shadow Broker/Liara/TIM could've simply picked the lifeless form out of the orbit it was traveling in.
Wether some sod ate his lunch in freezing weather on Freedoms Progress(we never learn anything about the planet it's located on) or if it was balmy spring weather when the Collectors attacked is less of a plot hole to me, but then again - I don't know what breaks the immersion of another player. For Bioware to cater to the countless of different experiences to keep our immersion they would have to make a game that no-one would buy and would never be completed I think
All in all I enjoyed the game on the premises given by Bioware. I have to do it since I think the redeeming qualities of the game far outweighs the few points of it that rubbed me as a player the wrong way. I think most points in the OP could be considered plot holes, but I acknowledge that they're personal opinions on the plot more than major points in the story that tear it apart for a majority of the players. I don't know if such points exist within the game, but having a discussion about those is healthy for inspiring Bioware to make a better ME3 - and I think there are several threads in here that deals with potential candidates for serious plot holes allready.
I hope Bioware aren't be immune to our constructive criticism and at the same time that we should tolerate other players for not having the same experience after having played the game. Which leaves it up to us to try to make the criticism as contructive as possible and not berate others for having another experience from playing the game without countering their criticism with emotional responces instead of trying to disproof it.
#60
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:49
RE0305
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I think it's important to have threads like this. I also think that the writers did a good job with the story but oversights in detail are inevitable and pointing these things out to the developers will help them do an even better job with ME3.
#61
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:49
AM50
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If I am correct, the only real plot hole is on Jacob's loyalty mission. The tutorial stuff was exactly that. A tutorial. Its an easy way to describe game play. I think you are nitpicking a little too much. Every game has some inconsistencies in the story. But the only REAL plot hole is Jacob's loyalty mission.
#62
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:50
Daeion
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AM50 wrote...
If I am correct, the only real plot hole is on Jacob's loyalty mission. The tutorial stuff was exactly that. A tutorial. Its an easy way to describe game play. I think you are nitpicking a little too much. Every game has some inconsistencies in the story. But the only REAL plot hole is Jacob's loyalty mission.
What's the plothole in his?
#63
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:53
AM50
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Daeion wrote...
AM50 wrote...
If I am correct, the only real plot hole is on Jacob's loyalty mission. The tutorial stuff was exactly that. A tutorial. Its an easy way to describe game play. I think you are nitpicking a little too much. Every game has some inconsistencies in the story. But the only REAL plot hole is Jacob's loyalty mission.
What's the plothole in his?
The fact that there are clips and mechs used by the outcasts. The ship crashed 10 years prior to ME2 so heat clips and LOKI mechs would not have been created or used by then. I believe this is the only one.
#64
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 02:20
Darth Drago
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AM50 wrote...
The fact that there are clips and mechs used by the outcasts. The ship crashed 10 years prior to ME2 so heat clips and LOKI mechs would not have been created or used by then. I believe this is the only one.
The thermal clip is a rather big plot issue for me game wide and this example perfectly points out the flaw. It’s the “magic wand” quick fix at its worst. How is it remotely possible that a castaway group that’s been missing uses them or for that matter has weapons that use them. You have to also ask why the Collector’s have them laying around on their ship. Are you seriously going to tell me that their weapons are based on Geth ones?
About the mechs that can go both ways since I don’t think there is any mention about when they were put in service. However the least the developers could have done was give them a different paint job to give them an older appearance.
#65
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 02:20
Madecologist
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I still think all of this is nothing more than splitting hairs. It is like the infamous "sharp-knee" comments (I will not explain this one) or complaining your gf/bf's eyebrow is a little thick. Criticising something or offering feedback or pointing out true flaws are one thing. But then there is complaining about the position of the coke bottle on a desk in action scene 3. A lot of things here seem to be more of the latter category.
Also, canon is established by the developers and publishers, NOT by the reader. If a company that makes product A states product B is canon. IT IS CANON. You can't just close your eyes and go "lalalalalala" and disbelieve it. Well you can, won't change its status.
Also, canon is established by the developers and publishers, NOT by the reader. If a company that makes product A states product B is canon. IT IS CANON. You can't just close your eyes and go "lalalalalala" and disbelieve it. Well you can, won't change its status.
Modifié par Madecologist, 03 mars 2010 - 02:25 .
#66
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 02:23
AM50
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Darth Drago wrote...
AM50 wrote...
The fact that there are clips and mechs used by the outcasts. The ship crashed 10 years prior to ME2 so heat clips and LOKI mechs would not have been created or used by then. I believe this is the only one.
The thermal clip is a rather big plot issue for me game wide and this example perfectly points out the flaw. It’s the “magic wand” quick fix at its worst. How is it remotely possible that a castaway group that’s been missing uses them or for that matter has weapons that use them. You have to also ask why the Collector’s have them laying around on their ship. Are you seriously going to tell me that their weapons are based on Geth ones?
About the mechs that can go both ways since I don’t think there is any mention about when they were put in service. However the least the developers could have done was give them a different paint job to give them an older appearance.
Other than the outcasts, I think the clips thing is minor. Look at fast tech changes now, let alone in 2186. It is very plausible that the clip based weapons would be the new norm and cutting edge tech. It would be nice to see old ME1 weapons somewhere to give some weight behind that. But the only place it was an issue was on Jacob's loyalty mission.
#67
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 02:25
AM50
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Madecologist wrote...
I still think all of this is nothing more than splitting hairs. It is like the infamous "sharp-knee" comments (I will not explain this one) or complaining your gf/bf's eyebrow is a little thick. Criticising something or offering feedback or pointing out true flaws are one thing. But then there is complaining about the position of the coke bottle on a desk in action scene 3. A lot of things here seem to be more of the latter category.
I agree. I believe the OP was nitpicking silly stuff. Like the meal on the table? Silly. The only real plothole is the mechs and thermal clips on Jacob's loyalty mission. And its not even a big one at that. Its very easy to ignore.
#68
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 03:12
Darth Drago
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-Maybe, maybe not. Tech changes here don’t just happen overnight. There are likely years of development and testing before something tech simple is released and then there is manufacturing the product to add in as well. I find it hard to believe that the thermal clip as well as all the various types of weapons that have to be made to use them was developed, tested and distributed galaxy wide in less than 2 years time. Adapting a weapon to use thermal clips isn’t likely a simple modification upgrade. Yet, everyone and their cousin is using them galaxy wide.AM50 wrote...
Other than the outcasts, I think the clips thing is minor. Look at fast tech changes now, let alone in 2186. It is very plausible that the clip based weapons would be the new norm and cutting edge tech. It would be nice to see old ME1 weapons somewhere to give some weight behind that. But the only place it was an issue was on Jacob's loyalty mission.
#69
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 03:13
AM50
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Darth Drago wrote...
-Maybe, maybe not. Tech changes here don’t just happen overnight. There are likely years of development and testing before something tech simple is released and then there is manufacturing the product to add in as well. I find it hard to believe that the thermal clip as well as all the various types of weapons that have to be made to use them was developed, tested and distributed galaxy wide in less than 2 years time. Adapting a weapon to use thermal clips isn’t likely a simple modification upgrade. Yet, everyone and their cousin is using them galaxy wide.AM50 wrote...
Other than the outcasts, I think the clips thing is minor. Look at fast tech changes now, let alone in 2186. It is very plausible that the clip based weapons would be the new norm and cutting edge tech. It would be nice to see old ME1 weapons somewhere to give some weight behind that. But the only place it was an issue was on Jacob's loyalty mission.
Sure it was a plot hiccup. But still feasible.
#70
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 03:16
MPSai
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Yeah most of those... aren't plotholes. Surreal gameplay necessity maybe.
The only plothole that bothered me is why the **** would Shepard conveniently take every competent person off the ship in the shuttle right before the Collectors attack the Normandy?
The only plothole that bothered me is why the **** would Shepard conveniently take every competent person off the ship in the shuttle right before the Collectors attack the Normandy?
#71
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 03:37
Big I
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mentosman8 wrote...
I just explained this: There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Reapers are connected to the Collectors. Just as there is no evidence the Keepers are connected to the Reapers, Just because we know otherwise doesn't mean there's anything that actually links the two.
If you scanned the keepers in ME, Chorban sends you an e-mail confirming that the Keepers are a) a manufactured life form,
much older than 50,000 years, and c) receive a signal to manipulate the Citadel periodically (approx. every 50,000 years). This not just consistent, but identical to the information Vigil gives you about the Keepers on Ilos wherein he links the Keepers to the Reapers and the Prothean extinction. As for the Collectors, the Reaper IFF proves the connection.
#72
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 03:44
Big I
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Singu wrote...
If all you can do is wonder 'who's flying that shuttle?' and not take in the elements the creators put in the scene to propel the story then I feel sorry for you.
No, seriously, who flew that shuttle? Is it the same guy as the one who flies the Kodiak on the Normandy? If it is, can we meet him? Or is it just EDI?
One of the best characters from ME was Joker, who did hardly anything, story wise. In ME2, we get to talk to the Normandy cook, but not the guy dropping us into combat? Is knowing who flew the shuttle really that big an ask?
#73
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 03:49
Big I
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Also, way to go OP, keep it up. I really hate how the Council doesn't believe the Reapers are real; the evidence for their existence is staggering.
#74
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 08:09
trigger2kill1
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I'm not sure if this falls into your criteria but how but the second relay in the omega system?
Since when do they have 2 relays in a single system? Of course the Citadel relay but that one is only conected to Ilos and is only a reciever.
Since when do they have 2 relays in a single system? Of course the Citadel relay but that one is only conected to Ilos and is only a reciever.
