205 réponses à ce sujet

[Lothial]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

I see the usual Bioware rimming squad is fast at work, agonizing over someone not loving the game as well as they do. Fanboys whose happiness and contentment is tied to other peoples' opinions about the things they appreciate.

I don't see why anyone has to co sign everything he says if they don't agree with it. To be honest most of that stuff was pretty weak.
In my opinon of course. Since it's fiction defenders are free to come up with whatever explanation they like. Like the Wilson mech one for example. Mechs explode when destroyed. Enemies in game destroyed with incendary ammo often burn to dust. or if he froze it cryo ammo, and then shattered it just as an example. I'm sure someone else could counter with a "but that doesn't work because there should be a pool of water on the floor" or whatever, and round and round we go. The point is there is no plot hole anyone can come up with that someone can' pull an explanation out of their ass for.

[MyChemicalBromance]

mhdemiroz wrote...

It's kind of sad that even after writing all of that stuff, judging by your examples, you still have no idea what is or isn't a plot hole.

[Avissel]

Daeion wrote...
Didn't you hear?  If you don't agree that this is the best game ever and that ME sucks when compared to this game you are an idiot...

I dont have a problem with people not liking the game. I have a problem with people proclaiming anything and everything to be a plot hole simply because they dont understand it.

The op may have wrote well, but none of the things he listed were plot holes, and infact he managed to to NOT list the only thing that IS a plot hole, the presence of two year old technology at an 8 year old crash site.

[mohelo]

ME2 has plotholes, and they are more pronounced because ME1 was so flawless. IMO.

[Daeion]

Avissel wrote...

Daeion wrote...
Didn't you hear?  If you don't agree that this is the best game ever and that ME sucks when compared to this game you are an idiot...

I dont have a problem with people not liking the game. I have a problem with people proclaiming anything and everything to be a plot hole simply because they dont understand it.

The op may have wrote well, but none of the things he listed were plot holes, and infact he managed to to NOT list the only thing that IS a plot hole, the presence of two year old technology at an 8 year old crash site.

You personally may not have an issue with people not liking the game or parts of the game, but there are pleanty of others that do.

I personally consider the derelict reaper a plot hole because I'm sorry but if shep finds something that helps their arguement that sovereign wasn't of geth origin, they'd be trying to get the council involved right away.

[Avissel]

Remember that The Derelict Reaper is outside Council Space, Shepard could have told them it was there but they wouldn't have risked the diplomatic incident from sending there people into the Terminus. It's not so much the Council "doesn't believe" it's that they "don't WANT" to believe. Since they wouldn't be able to get to the Reaper, they would be unlikely to just believe anything you say about it, and all physical evidence is destroyed at the end of the mission.



One other thing to think about is that YOUR Shepard would have told them, other peoples would not have. Other people never even talked to the council at all. Since Shepard actions and his relationship to the Council are based on people personal opinions and actions, you cant really make a statement like saying what Shepard would do. It's what your Shepard would do, not everyones.

[Daeion]

Avissel wrote...

Remember that The Derelict Reaper is outside Council Space, Shepard could have told them it was there but they wouldn't have risked the diplomatic incident from sending there people into the Terminus. It's not so much the Council "doesn't believe" it's that they "don't WANT" to believe. Since they wouldn't be able to get to the Reaper, they would be unlikely to just believe anything you say about it, and all physical evidence is destroyed at the end of the mission.

One other thing to think about is that YOUR Shepard would have told them, other peoples would not have. Other people never even talked to the council at all. Since Shepard actions and his relationship to the Council are based on people personal opinions and actions, you cant really make a statement like saying what Shepard would do. It's what your Shepard would do, not everyones.

They wouldn't have sent a fleet, but they can send a specter just like they did with shep in ME.  I don't see why everyone's shepard would tell the council, the entire point of the games is preparing to fight the reapers, regardless of sheps feeling towards the council, shep would know they need all the help they can get and would tell the council.  I can make the same arguement with about working with Cerberus and yet that seems to be ok....

Modifié par Daeion, 03 mars 2010 - 05:32 .

[smudboy]

Avissel wrote...

Daeion wrote...
Didn't you hear?  If you don't agree that this is the best game ever and that ME sucks when compared to this game you are an idiot...

I dont have a problem with people not liking the game. I have a problem with people proclaiming anything and everything to be a plot hole simply because they dont understand it.

The op may have wrote well, but none of the things he listed were plot holes, and infact he managed to to NOT list the only thing that IS a plot hole, the presence of two year old technology at an 8 year old crash site.

Please give your definition of a plot hole then.

[trigger2kill1]

Darht Jayder wrote...

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

mhdemiroz wrote...

It's kind of sad that even after writing all of that stuff, judging by your examples, you still have no idea what is or isn't a plot hole.

The OP is a plothole.

Dude,
Instead of throwing insults why not try and educate the OP and the rest of us. Or atleast try and participate intelligently in the conversation.
Anything short of that is simply being an ass.

[Srau]

Cool !!

A forum where you can derail a thread and talk trash on the OP simply because you don't agree without being moderated !

GG !

[jerkforhours]

How does Shepard get to choose a hairrcut when theyre are no hairstylists in the game?!
Plot hole

Modifié par jerkforhours, 03 mars 2010 - 05:42 .

[Srau]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Srau wrote...

Cool !!
A forum where you can derail a thread and talk trash on the OP simply because you don't agree without being moderated !
GG !

There are lots of these plothole threads that keep popping up and it usually exhibits a lack of understanding what a plothole is.  A plothole is not....unexplicable amounts of crates in the training area, or TIM not explaining his background. 

Wasn't talking of plot holes per se but more of the raging fanboy/hateboy war on a thread where the OP clearly tried to have a constructive discussion.

Modifié par Srau, 03 mars 2010 - 05:49 .

[Madecologist]

Darht Jayder wrote...

ok...

A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

Exactly, a plothole is a tangible thing in literature. It is not an opinion (well usually, some people have different opinions as to when an inconsistency becomes a plothole or is just a "to be revealed later"). The reason so many people seem to be railing on the OP is a lot of what he describes are personal grievences.

A personal grievence is disagreement with a flow of logic or with a presentation of events based on personal taste. Example, the meal on the table is a plothole because it is too cold. There is no plothole there, but an opinion that people will not eat outside in such cold conditions. Problems being how cold was it, perhaps most of the cold is from it being night by the time Shepard shows up (maybe warmer in the daytime), and maybe the person did. I would suprise quite a few people just how cold it is outside and I am still sitting outside eating. Heck anyone that worked in construction will know this.

Now the OP is entitlted to have personal grievences and has the right to post his opinions in the forums. "I did not like X and Y." The railing occurs because an attitude of "this is objective fact! PLOTHOLES!!! BW Fubbed writing!!!!" As mention these threads have become endemic. An opinion is not a fact. Plotholes are usually considered fact (anyone who did a freakin literature class would know this). As I said most of the OP's comments are opinions or personal grieviences, except he trying to give his opinion weight by claiming they are plotholes. That will irratiate any sane person. How would someone react if they are nagged on for wearing a spring jacket in winter? You most probably going to tell the guy off.

Again, these opinion as fact threads have grown in numbers. A backlash is to be expected.

[WindOverTuchanka]

(11) WHERE: Ventilation area near the fans on Mordin recruit mission.
     WHAT: Some Krogan are the enemies who are trying to stop you putting the cure into the ventalation system when even they are supposedly not immune to the plague in the quarantine area.
     TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
     WHY: It is explained that the plague affects all races except Vorcha and Humans yet here we have Krogan running around breathing the contaminated air. It invalidates the whole talk with the sick Batarian at the entrance to the area when you try to point out others could be responsible. If they are immune because of having been immunised then that fact plus vorcha should scream Blood Pack. If there are not immune then what the heck are they doing there?
     NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - poor planning for the combat in putting in Krogan. The varied amount of vorcha there were already a challenge without then introducing another enemy that invalidates dialog just prior to that point.
Edited: 3 MAR 2010 to add 2 more items and to close 2 items as solved.

MORE TO COME.

This post fascinates me... in a somewhat morbid fashion. I don't agree with a lot of points, but do continue, and don't listen to naysayers. It's metaentertainment, right here.

Now, onto #11: the district is locked down to keep the plague from spreading. Krogan can't get out. And they are still running around instead of lying down because (like vorcha) they posess certain regenerative capabilites, not to mention redundunt systems. They simply take much longer to die than batarians and turians.

[Avissel]

smudboy wrote...
Please give your definition of a plot hole then.

A plot hole is eaxctly that, it is a hole in the plot which cannot be rationally explained. Poor writeing, game mechanics, and design choices, are not in and of themselves plot holes.

Lack of information or visuals is not a plot hole, the things neccecary to have happened could be assumed to be "off screen" or require a bit of extrapalation on the part of the viewer.

Example: On Jacob's loyalty mission you can find heat sink cartridges, a technology invented in the last two years. However the crash happened 8 years ago and has no contact with anything off planet, there is no way they should have these things.

Game Design that is not a plot hole : Jack destroying the Mechs, this is an example of Lore and game play mismatch. it's a function of game design not a plot hole.

Game Design as a plot hole: The party members walk around the Flotilla without any form of Envriosuit.
I really shouldnt need to explain that one.

People eating outside in cold weather is not a plot hole.

Here is a famos example: In the Terminator 2 film, The Terminator enters the lobby of a building and shoot several people with a hand gun. He then places the hand gun on a desk, walks outside and steals a truck. He then rams that truck into the build (in fact crushing the desk he placed the gun on) and then drives away. A few scenes later he is shown shotting the T-1000 with the hand gun that he never retrived. That is a plot hole.

[Madecologist]

Avissel wrote...

smudboy wrote...
Please give your definition of a plot hole then.

A plot hole is eaxctly that, it is a hole in the plot which cannot be rationally explained. Poor writeing, game mechanics, and design choices, are not in and of themselves plot holes.

Lack of information or visuals is not a plot hole, the things neccecary to have happened could be assumed to be "off screen" or require a bit of extrapalation on the part of the viewer.

Example: On Jacob's loyalty mission you can find heat sink cartridges, a technology invented in the last two years. However the crash happened 8 years ago and has no contact with anything off planet, there is no way they should have these things.

Game Design that is not a plot hole : Jack destroying the Mechs, this is an example of Lore and game play mismatch. it's a function of game design not a plot hole.

Game Design as a plot hole: The party members walk around the Flotilla without any form of Envriosuit.
I really shouldnt need to explain that one.

People eating outside in cold weather is not a plot hole.

Here is a famos example: In the Terminator 2 film, The Terminator enters the lobby of a building and shoot several people with a hand gun. He then places the hand gun on a desk, walks outside and steals a truck. He then rams that truck into the build (in fact crushing the desk he placed the gun on) and then drives away. A few scenes later he is shown shotting the T-1000 with the hand gun that he never retrived. That is a plot hole.

Thank you, this is a good explaination and examples.

As I said before everyone is entitled to their opinions. But people should not try pass off an opinion, comment, or personal grievence as a quantifiable literary critique using terms that have accepted meanings. If you want to claim something is a plothole you present a plothole. If think something is bad writing in your opinion, then you can say so but don't claim it to be a plothole to give your opinion weight.

[Srau]

WindOverTuchanka wrote...

(11) WHERE: Ventilation area near the fans on Mordin recruit mission.
     WHAT: Some Krogan are the enemies who are trying to stop you putting the cure into the ventalation system when even they are supposedly not immune to the plague in the quarantine area.
     TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
     WHY: It is explained that the plague affects all races except Vorcha and Humans yet here we have Krogan running around breathing the contaminated air. It invalidates the whole talk with the sick Batarian at the entrance to the area when you try to point out others could be responsible. If they are immune because of having been immunised then that fact plus vorcha should scream Blood Pack. If there are not immune then what the heck are they doing there?
     NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - poor planning for the combat in putting in Krogan. The varied amount of vorcha there were already a challenge without then introducing another enemy that invalidates dialog just prior to that point.
Edited: 3 MAR 2010 to add 2 more items and to close 2 items as solved.

MORE TO COME.

Now, onto #11: the district is locked down to keep the plague from spreading. Krogan can't get out. And they are still running around instead of lying down because (like vorcha) they posess certain regenerative capabilites, not to mention redundunt systems. They simply take much longer to die than batarians and turians.

+1, no one said there is no Krogan in the district and since they got locked in just like other races there is no reason they can't work with their usual buddies the vorcha.

[bjdbwea]

Still going on about the definition of plot holes? Here's a newsflash: It still doesn't change anything. There are major flaws, oversights and contradictions in the game, some (too many) of which are simply not up to BioWare's previous standards of storytelling and polish. And all your defending and trying to explain it away will not stop people from voicing their disappointment or get you the next game for free or whatever it is you think it may accomplish.

[Svest]

1) I actually work in a laboratory.  In that lab we have 6 cylinders filled with compressed gas that, under the right circumstances can be very explosive.  Those 6 cylinders just happen to be right next to an exit.  I really don't understand why this would seem abnormal to you.  Its actually extremely common.  Unless you've never been in an actual laboratory. 

You are correct in that the answer to why they are about to explode is never given.  However it is not a plot hole either.  Obviously quite a bit happened in the minutes before Shepard was woken up.  Just because you are not given a play-by-play of what happened while you were unconscience does not make a plot hole.  There are plenty of very plausible and logical things that could have caused those containers to explode.

However, you did miss an actual plot hole just seconds before this point.  How does Shepard know about thermal clips?  They were developed and implemented while he was dead.

2) Shepard is not surprised unless you make him be surprised.  he is slightly startled by a gun being fired 3 feet away from his head, as would anyone else who wasn't expecting it.  Then he can simply say that he never trusted Wilson.  There was no dead mech in Wilson's room because there was no mech there.  Wilson shot himself.

5) I was never under the impression that what Veetor shows you was security camera footage.  I always thought it was recordings from Veetor's omni-tool while he was hiding from the collectors.  Specifically because Talis says you can have Veetor's omni-tool data.  That is what Veetor was working on piecing together.

6) This isn't a plot hole.  You could possibly argue its bad writing, but there is no hole.  Shepard is just forced into a choice you might not agree with.  There is no "magic wand"

7) There are tons of people who would pay lots of money to get their hands on Shepard.  There doesn't have to be an official bounty.  not to mention the warden could have simply been planning on ransoming Shepard back to Cerberus.

8) Again, not a plot hole.  Bad writing perhaps. They probably should have had her surrounded by Loki mechs instead of  YMIR. 

9) You have 0 evidence about the reapers.  You have lots of evidence about the collectors, but nobody denies that they are a problem.  The only evidence you have of the reapers before the suicide mission is the dead reaper, but that gets destroyed.  People say you could have told the council before you went there and they could have sent a Spectre to investigate.  Well, they did, they sent Shepard, too bad Shepard destroyed it before more evidence could be gathered.  if Shepard is not a Spectre at that point then he has no reason to bother telling the council anyways, as any moron could see that they wouldn't believe him.

10) The door locking has nothing to do with the plot and is not a plot hole.  Poor level design, sure, but not a plot hole. 

11) I will agree that the krogan are out of place, and this might be an actual plot hole.  My question is are these krogan wearing masks?  To be honest I don't remember, I just know that many of the krogan you kill in the game are.  If they are wearing masks then its not a problem.

[Avissel]

Svest wrote...
11) I will agree that the krogan are out of place, and this might be an actual plot hole.  My question is are these krogan wearing masks?  To be honest I don't remember, I just know that many of the krogan you kill in the game are.  If they are wearing masks then its not a problem.

Remember that before you fight any Vorcha you have to fight blue suns.

The thing here is that just because every species CAN catch the plauge, Doesnt mean everybody in the Quarintine zone DOES have the plague. The ones that dont are going about Buisness as usual, trying to sieze an opportunity in the midsts of the chaos.