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Plot Holes: A serious discussion.


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#176
Terraneaux

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

You don't think Shepard was tired of calling them on it 20 seperate times in the first game?


No.  He finally got through to them and then they backpedal?  This is new levels of fail, even for them.  

Call it what you want, plot holes, bad writing, poor characterization.  It was a screwup.  


Only to you based on your preconcieved perceptions as to how you thought the council should have behaved. To many others on this board it's perfectly acceptable and expected.

Plot hole =/= bad writing. Plot holes can accompany bad writing, but they are not analogous with one another.


Well, like someone earlier said, the game doesn't let you go to the council once you have hard evidence of what's going on with the collectors to get their help.  Elements like this lead me to believe that the goals of the writing team were to have Shepard working for Cerberus and damn continuity, which to me is reprehensible.  

And if you believe that the Council's actions were plausible, than why does TIM believe Shepard?

#177
SurfaceBeneath

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Madecologist wrote...
Exactly, a plothole is a tangible thing in literature. It is not an opinion (well usually, some people have different opinions as to when an inconsistency becomes a plothole or is just a "to be revealed later"). The reason so many people seem to be railing on the OP is a lot of what he describes are personal grievences.

A personal grievence is disagreement with a flow of logic or with a presentation of events based on personal taste. Example, the meal on the table is a plothole because it is too cold. There is no plothole there, but an opinion that people will not eat outside in such cold conditions. Problems being how cold was it, perhaps most of the cold is from it being night by the time Shepard shows up (maybe warmer in the daytime), and maybe the person did. I would suprise quite a few people just how cold it is outside and I am still sitting outside eating. Heck anyone that worked in construction will know this.

Now the OP is entitlted to have personal grievences and has the right to post his opinions in the forums. "I did not like X and Y." The railing occurs because an attitude of "this is objective fact! PLOTHOLES!!! BW Fubbed writing!!!!" As mention these threads have become endemic. An opinion is not a fact. Plotholes are usually considered fact (anyone who did a freakin literature class would know this). As I said most of the OP's comments are opinions or personal grieviences, except he trying to give his opinion weight by claiming they are plotholes. That will irratiate any sane person. How would someone react if they are nagged on for wearing a spring jacket in winter? You most probably going to tell the guy off.

Again, these opinion as fact threads have grown in numbers. A backlash is to be expected.


I just have to requote this from page 5 because it explains everything PERFECTLY.

I don't object to people having a "problem" with the plot. That's their opinion and right as a person. What I do care about is people calling a cow a chicken and then complaining that cow doesn't taste like chicken. Use the terms correctly or don't use them at all, because by replacing "story points I don't like" with "plotholes" you only make yourself look ridiculous.

#178
SurfaceBeneath

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Terraneaux wrote...
Well, like someone earlier said, the game doesn't let you go to the council once you have hard evidence of what's going on with the collectors to get their help.  Elements like this lead me to believe that the goals of the writing team were to have Shepard working for Cerberus and damn continuity, which to me is reprehensible.  

And if you believe that the Council's actions were plausible, than why does TIM believe Shepard?


The game doesn't let me go to Omega and do an Irish jig while dressing in my best flannel and singing "Oh what a wonderful world" too.

Any game that attempts to tell a plot is going to have a railroad that you have to follow. I can make any number of excuses as to why your idea wouldn't work in the context of the story, but in the end it's going to come down to "the writers wanted it to happen that way", which is how all literature works. You can complain that this isn't what "your shepard would do" but in the end you're not complaining about the game but rather the very limitations of the medium. It's the very reason that Pen and Paper tabletop games are still relevant today is because no possible artificial medium can or ever will be able to compensate for the limitlessness of the human imagination.

TIM believes Shepard because TIM is a very smart "man" who probably has many ulterior motives to stopping the Reapers. I have money to bet that he's going to be as much of an Adversary in the third game as the Reapers. Also, it's heavily hinted at that the Citadel keeps those on it from investigating into Reapers too much just by virtue of proximity (notice how everyone on the Migrant Fleet at the trial actually believe you stopped the Reapers?) due to some psuedo indoctrination signal. But of course, I think I've "debated" that with you and you don't find that an acceptable theory, so *shrug*

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 04 mars 2010 - 09:38 .


#179
Terraneaux

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The game doesn't let me go to Omega and do an Irish jig while dressing in my best flannel and singing "Oh what a wonderful world" too.

Any game that attempts to tell a plot is going to have a railroad that you have to follow. I can make any number of excuses as to why your idea wouldn't work in the context of the story, but in the end it's going to come down to "the writers wanted it to happen that way", which is how all literature works. You can complain that this isn't what "your shepard would do" but in the end you're not complaining about the game but rather the very limitations of the medium. It's the very reason that Pen and Paper tabletop games are still relevant today is because no possible artificial medium can or ever will be able to compensate for the limitlessness of the human imagination.

TIM believes Shepard because TIM is a very smart "man" who probably has many ulterior motives to stopping the Reapers. I have money to bet that he's going to be as much of an Adversary in the third game as the Reapers. Also, it's heavily hinted at that the Citadel keeps those on it from investigating into Reapers too much just by virtue of proximity (notice how everyone on the Migrant Fleet at the trial actually believe you stopped the Reapers?) due to some psuedo indoctrination signal. But of course, I think I've "debated" that with you and you don't find that an acceptable theory, so *shrug*


Would you consider it unrealistic if the council believed Shepard?  

#180
SurfaceBeneath

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Terraneaux wrote...
Would you consider it unrealistic if the council believed Shepard?  


I won't know until the third game why exactly the council doesn't believe Shepard. I thought it was frankly ridiculous they were giving me so much trouble in the first game and was kind of pissed that there wasn't an option for the Asari representitive to just mind sex it out of me.

#181
Terraneaux

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...
Would you consider it unrealistic if the council believed Shepard?  


I won't know until the third game why exactly the council doesn't believe Shepard. I thought it was frankly ridiculous they were giving me so much trouble in the first game and was kind of pissed that there wasn't an option for the Asari representitive to just mind sex it out of me.


Your position makes a bit more sense now.  You feel that the Council doesn't trust Shep for some reason we don't quite understand yet, and that the behavior of the council in ME2 is a continuation of that?  I disagree, but that's a more tenable position than the 'lol politicians are dumb' that I've heard from some other posters.  

As far as my opinion on the TIM/Cerberus/Council situation in ME2, you mentioned tabletop roleplaying games in an earlier post, so I'm going to use a term from that realm to illustrate.  To me, the way TIM has control of all the information in the plot, and more or less toys with the PC, and yet the PC is forced to work for him, leaves me feeling exactly the same as I do in a tabletop game when a GM has an obvious GMPC and assumes that the players don't realize.  If we have resolution on this issue in ME3, I suppose I won't have such an issue, but as it stands Shepard can't even express a viewpoint that he/she is trying to take Cerberus down, merely grudgingly accept the necessity of their existence.  I have a sneaking suspicion that TIM will survive ME3 relatively unscathed, however, just from the vibes I get from ME2's story.  

#182
SurfaceBeneath

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Terraneaux wrote...
As far as my opinion on the TIM/Cerberus/Council situation in ME2, you mentioned tabletop roleplaying games in an earlier post, so I'm going to use a term from that realm to illustrate.  To me, the way TIM has control of all the information in the plot, and more or less toys with the PC, and yet the PC is forced to work for him, leaves me feeling exactly the same as I do in a tabletop game when a GM has an obvious GMPC and assumes that the players don't realize.  If we have resolution on this issue in ME3, I suppose I won't have such an issue, but as it stands Shepard can't even express a viewpoint that he/she is trying to take Cerberus down, merely grudgingly accept the necessity of their existence.  I have a sneaking suspicion that TIM will survive ME3 relatively unscathed, however, just from the vibes I get from ME2's story.  


I think that the decision to have Shepard ally with Cerberus was a thematic decision to reinforce the feeling that Shepard was truly alone in the battle against the Reapers since the only person you could trust were the last people you'd want to trust. And even then, Cerberus is probably only using Shepard to defeat the Reapers so as to further their own personal agenda (or rather, the Illusive Man's agenda).

My personal feeling is that sometime in the third game the Illusive Man will actually be featured as more or less the main villain. Sure, the Reapers are huge, but they're a faceless threat and not really all that interesting as antagonists. Will he get away at the end? Meh, we'll see. Though, quite frankly, I've always been a fan of the Karma Houdini

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 04 mars 2010 - 10:28 .


#183
Aaren J

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Madecologist wrote...
Exactly, a plothole is a tangible thing in literature. It is not an opinion (well usually, some people have different opinions as to when an inconsistency becomes a plothole or is just a "to be revealed later"). The reason so many people seem to be railing on the OP is a lot of what he describes are personal grievences.

A personal grievence is disagreement with a flow of logic or with a presentation of events based on personal taste. Example, the meal on the table is a plothole because it is too cold. There is no plothole there, but an opinion that people will not eat outside in such cold conditions. Problems being how cold was it, perhaps most of the cold is from it being night by the time Shepard shows up (maybe warmer in the daytime), and maybe the person did. I would suprise quite a few people just how cold it is outside and I am still sitting outside eating. Heck anyone that worked in construction will know this.

Now the OP is entitlted to have personal grievences and has the right to post his opinions in the forums. "I did not like X and Y." The railing occurs because an attitude of "this is objective fact! PLOTHOLES!!! BW Fubbed writing!!!!" As mention these threads have become endemic. An opinion is not a fact. Plotholes are usually considered fact (anyone who did a freakin literature class would know this). As I said most of the OP's comments are opinions or personal grieviences, except he trying to give his opinion weight by claiming they are plotholes. That will irratiate any sane person. How would someone react if they are nagged on for wearing a spring jacket in winter? You most probably going to tell the guy off.

Again, these opinion as fact threads have grown in numbers. A backlash is to be expected.


I just have to requote this from page 5 because it explains everything PERFECTLY.

I don't object to people having a "problem" with the plot. That's their opinion and right as a person. What I do care about is people calling a cow a chicken and then complaining that cow doesn't taste like chicken. Use the terms correctly or don't use them at all, because by replacing "story points I don't like" with "plotholes" you only make yourself look ridiculous.


+10000000

#184
GenericPlayer2

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So on Haelstrom you need to stay in the shade because the sun strips your shields. Well the Geth have no such problem, their shields work fine in the sunlight. Ok, maybe explained by saying that Geth Shield Tech different from ours. Well I have Legion in my squad and his shields are being affected by the sunlight as well!

#185
SurfaceBeneath

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GenericPlayer2 wrote...

So on Haelstrom you need to stay in the shade because the sun strips your shields. Well the Geth have no such problem, their shields work fine in the sunlight. Ok, maybe explained by saying that Geth Shield Tech different from ours. Well I have Legion in my squad and his shields are being affected by the sunlight as well!


That's just Geth using their 1337 haxx0rz against you. Definitely not a plot hole :P

#186
Arijharn

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Daeion wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

Daeion wrote...

only thing I really consider a plot hole is the derelict reaper.


How so? Shouldn't the entire crew have been indoctrinated?

It's actually a plot hole of the game at large, when Sovereign arrived in ME1 why didn't he indoctrinate the council/alliance ships. The mere presence of the ship can cause indoctrination to occur, why not weaponize it? I bet with a large enough fleet of Reaper's mass indoctrination would be a snap, and is probably what happened to the Protheans and prior races that were pulled into the Reaper's evolutionary puppets.


I consider the derelict reaper to be a plot hole because at no point does shep go oh look, more evidence that Sovereign wasn't a Geth creation.  Shep should have contacted to the council and gotten them to send a science team out to investigate the reaper, at least then they wouldn't be to claim geth origin.  Also, indoctrination takes time, it's not something that happens right away, it takes time to break down your mind and then rebuild it.


TIM says that there is no time if you mention it to him, and when you finish the area you drop the derelict into the core of a failed star. What on earth are they going to find? Dust?

#187
Pandaman102

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Only really disagree with four points:

glacier1701 wrote...
(2) WHERE: Meeting up with Wilson and his shooting by Miranda.
    WHAT: Wilson is in a room where he declares he was shot by a mech.
    TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
   
WHY: No evidence of mechs in the room when up to that point it is made
clear that mechs would only stop killing someone if they were destroyed
before doing so. While this meeting is used to explain a game mechanic
it is ignored when Wilson is killed by Miranda where Jacob and Shepard
act surprised.
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - but just barely in that an
important game mechanic is explained. It makes Shepard appear stupid
when other actions ingame clearly indicate the opposite and on even
less clear cut ingame clues.

I think the Renegade option of saying "I had the feeling he was waiting for a chance to shoot me in the back" pretty much covers this - it's not a fault that Shepard doesn't go into an exposition about how Wilson's cry for help was so obviously forced and insincere that it makes Pamela Anderson's acting Oscar material, that there was no gunfire in the background when he claims he's being shot at (contrasted by Miranda'sbeing shot at actually having gunshots and static), the suspicious lack of broken robots when they found him, and how he was quick to come up with an excuse why he was in the control room all pointed to him being the saboteur. I just wrote a paragraph justifying Renegade Shepard's suspisions, it would have been terrible to actually hear it vocalized.

As for Shepard being surprised when Miranda shot Wilson? Not surprising at all. Shepard woke up to gunfire and explosions, survived a dozen security mechs, and knew there were at least two rocket-laucnhing YMIRs wandering the station... and suddenly a complete stranger (Shepard only has a hazy memory of Miranda's face to work on, remember) pops up from behind a door and shoots Wilson in the face; most people would be pulling the trigger before registering that Wilson's last words included "Miranda!?" The neutral "If you say so" answer does make Shepard look like a bit of a dull stone though.

If there was anything wrong with that sequence it was that Shepard didn't have the choice of confronting Wilson earlier, with a Paragon [Disarm Wilson], a Renegade [Shoot Wilson in the back], or a Neutral [Confront Wilson later] right after Overloading the containers.

glacier1701 wrote...
(7) WHERE: PURGATORY
    WHAT: Being betrayed by the Warden and thus having to fight to leave.
    TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: Nothing in the game up to this point indicates that a bounty is on Shepard's head which can be excused if an explanation is forthcoming at some point. However nothing is said at any point during the rest of the game as to why this action is taken thus leaving it a mystery.
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - this comes out of the blue (no pun intended). It appears to be just a plot device to allow some combat and to highlight Jack's abilities without any other justification though it also introduces plot hole #8 by its presence.

Don't forget the entire first mission happens because Wilson inexplicably gains max security clearance, kills all his coworkers, and betrays the Illusive Man just for a chance to kill Shepard; this just gets swept under the rug when the abductions become the focus but comes up again when the Warden risks Cerberus' wrath for the chance to "live like a king". From both Wilson and the Warden's actions it's pretty clear someone out there is gunning for Shepard, has information on Cerberus' deals (how else would they get to Wilson on a secret station or know Shepard would be headed to Purgatory?), and has the resources to make betraying someone as connected as the Illusive Man a viable option.

Later in the game you can find out Liara was the one that delivered Shepard's body to Cerberus... and that she had to get it from the Shadow Broker, who was unwilling to part with it peacefully (or changed his/her/its mind at the last moment) and intended to sell it to the Collectors; from ME1 we know the Shadow Broker has information on Cerberus activities, isn't afraid to step on their toes, and has extensive connections and resources.

It doesn't make #8 right but isn't a plothole in itself.

glacier1701 wrote...

(9) WHERE: Councillor Anderson's office on the Citadel
    WHAT: Gathered evidence such as security camera footage from Freedom's Progress, DNA evidence from the Collector ship, the attack on Horizon, the derelict Reaper or information from Legion convinces the Council that there is a Reaper threat.
    TYPE: Category 2, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: This is a plot hole that gets worse the longer you take to visit Anderson on the Citadel. Quite literally the Council is supposed to be stupid but the evidence you can accumulate is beyond belief in it being able to be ignored. Moreover Shepard only needs to go public with that evidence of incompetence and the political fallout for the Council/Alliance should have anyone denying the truth of the threat running for cover because of the political ****storm that would occur.
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - this is pure bad writing at its finest. It is intended to emphasise that Shepard cannot get support from the Council/Alliance but the way this is handled is amateurish beyond belief. Emily Wong would have a field day if you had the option to bring it to her attention.

The security footage only proves Collectors are abducting humans, the Prothean/Collector DNA evidence doesn't suggest who made the modifications (in fact proving the Collectors were once Protheans works against you, the Council can point at that and go "AHA! The Protheans still exist, no extinction ergo no Reapers!"), and the attack on Horizon/bodies in Collector ship only strengthen the case against the Collectors; the only physical evidence linking the Reapers to the Collectors and Heretics are the Dragon's Teeth, but that evidence disappears with the derelict Reaper.

You complained in #2 that Shepard was too quick to accept Wilson's lies and Miranda's reasoning, so why should the Council be so quick to accept the word of a anti-alien organization and a anti-meatbag race? Especially when the word sounds a lot like "Hey, we loathe your very existence and want nothing more than to drive you to extinction but look over there, bigger threat, don't mind us."

glacier1701 wrote...


(10) WHERE: Garrus' Stronghold on Omega
     WHAT: Opening and closing of a door without explanation
     TYPE; Category 1, MAGIC WAND
     WHY: The one room you find Garrus in has one door. This is apparently a very smart door in so far as it opens and closes and locks at the most dramatic moments regardless of whether or not it makes sense. That is it is closed and locked when you come across the infiltration team trying to get in (makes sense) but then is open for the rest of the mission (makes no sense) until the gunship appears when it suddenly closes and locks by itself (makes no sense).
     NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - this is a device to try to inject tension into the combat but could have been avoided by a better level design so that such tricks need not be used.

Won't disagree that's odd but it's not a plothole.

What I do have a complaint about in that part of the game is why does Shepard have no problem sabotaging the mechs but doesn't sabotage the gunship? I understand it's so Garrus can get half his face blown off but it's not like he doesn't already have a non-scarred-and-too-cheap-to-replace-his-armor model.

#188
Pandaman102

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TheLostGenius wrote...

Daeion wrote...

only thing I really consider a plot hole is the derelict reaper.


How so? Shouldn't the entire crew have been indoctrinated?

It's actually a plot hole of the game at large, when Sovereign arrived in ME1 why didn't he indoctrinate the council/alliance ships. The mere presence of the ship can cause indoctrination to occur, why not weaponize it? I bet with a large enough fleet of Reaper's mass indoctrination would be a snap, and is probably what happened to the Protheans and prior races that were pulled into the Reaper's evolutionary puppets.

Rana Thanoptis, the asari neurologist on Virmire, says very specifically it takes a week for the indoctrination to really dig in.

#189
smudboy

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In regards to (10):



I think almost every game has the "locked door: time to fight a boss" deal going for it. In ME, it can be explained by simply saying there's some jamming signal being emitted by the enemy. It's still a magic wand, but with sci-fi, it's at least more believable.

#190
slackbheep

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A great many of the things you've pointed out have been explained in the game, though I agree with you on points eight and nine. Jacks berserk rampage out of the prison stunk of Devil May Cry in a way that still strikes me as absolutely retarded. Oh and the fact you never bother trying to piece together evidence for the council was sort of amusing. "Won't just take my word for it this time? Fine, I'll stop the whole goddamn apocalypse myself. Pricks."



What about the data from Veetors omnitool? Finding the 37 million year old derelict? I can only assume that we'll find out in ME3 that the council just didn't trust Shepard, and perhaps in destroying the collector base he'll prove he's not with Cereberus... Hell I don't know.

#191
Urazz

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Pandaman102 wrote...

What I do have a complaint about in that part of the game is why does Shepard have no problem sabotaging the mechs but doesn't sabotage the gunship? I understand it's so Garrus can get half his face blown off but it's not like he doesn't already have a non-scarred-and-too-cheap-to-replace-his-armor model.

I figured it had more to do with that there was no time because an attack against 'Archangel' was being launched right then and there and Shepard and his crew wanted to get there quickly.  Not to mention the airship was more exposed than the mechs were so they couldn't stay there fiddling with it longwithout being seen by the blue suns I think.  Killing Cathka and going with the merc force was done fast enough that they probably didn't notice it until after Shepard and his crew was with Archangel.  They probably also checked it for booby traps once they discovered Cathka was dead.

#192
Pandaman102

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slackbheep wrote...
What about the data from Veetors omnitool?

Already addressed. Surviellance video shows it's Collectors abducting humans, Veetor's data proves it's Collector technology being used.

slackbheep wrote...
Finding the 37 million year old derelict?

Only to have it crushed in the heart of a brown dwarf before an independent source can verify it (which Cerberus, a terrorist organization, isn't).

#193
Pandaman102

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Urazz wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

What I do have a complaint about in that part of the game is why does Shepard have no problem sabotaging the mechs but doesn't sabotage the gunship? I understand it's so Garrus can get half his face blown off but it's not like he doesn't already have a non-scarred-and-too-cheap-to-replace-his-armor model.

I figured it had more to do with that there was no time because an attack against 'Archangel' was being launched right then and there and Shepard and his crew wanted to get there quickly.  Not to mention the airship was more exposed than the mechs were so they couldn't stay there fiddling with it longwithout being seen by the blue suns I think.  Killing Cathka and going with the merc force was done fast enough that they probably didn't notice it until after Shepard and his crew was with Archangel.  They probably also checked it for booby traps once they discovered Cathka was dead.


True, this is one of the reasons I miss ME1's remote mines: instead of playing a hotwiring minigame on it just cram a remote mine in somewhere, hop over the barricade, and announce which side you're on with a bang.

#194
Exile Isan

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These have been answered before, but I want to put in my 2 credits as well: 
[quote]glacier1701 wrote...
(1) WHERE: Tutorial phase just after Shepard's awakening
    WHAT: The large number of explodable containers clustered together near the exit to the room you are in.
    TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: No logical reason as to why such a large number of containers should be stored in your room and by a door. Nor any reason as to why they are about to explode.
    NOTE: ACCEPTABLE - used to explain a game mechanic.[/quote]
You realize it's a medical bay right? And that oxygen (for example) is highly flammable?

[quote](2) WHERE: Meeting up with Wilson and his shooting by Miranda.
    WHAT: Wilson is in a room where he declares he was shot by a mech.
    TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: No evidence of mechs in the room when up to that point it is made clear that mechs would only stop killing someone if they were destroyed before doing so. While this meeting is used to explain a game mechanic it is ignored when Wilson is killed by Miranda where Jacob and Shepard act surprised.
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - but just barely in that an important game mechanic is explained. It makes Shepard appear stupid when other actions ingame clearly indicate the opposite and on even less clear cut ingame clues.[/quote] Because Miranda is right and he is the traitor. If you listen to the personal logs you see that he didn't feel like he was being paid enough and he was pissed off that Miranda wouldn't give him the time of day. Having played the game now once I, as the player, can speculate that the Shadow Broker payed Wilson to get Shepard's body, Miranda waking you up put a wrench in that, so he makes nice by trying to get you to see him as a victim. As to why there are no mechs there destroyed or not? Well, that's because there never were any. It's not such a leap in logic to believe that he shot himself to cover his tracks.

[quote][i](3) WHERE: The shuttle flight away from the Lazarus Project base.
    WHAT: Miranda, Jacob and Shepard are seated in the same passenger compartment while it travels to another Cerberus base.
    TYPE: Explanation found - supplied by TheUnusualSuspect
    WHY: N/A
    NOTE: N/A[/quote]
If this was about the fact that there was no pilot visable I'd like to point out that the shuttle has a VI program. Not too hard to believe that it's piloting the ship.

[quote] WHERE: Outside picnic table near landing on Freedom's Progress.
    WHAT: Remains of meal being eaten outside in a cold climate.
    TYPE: Explanation found - supplied by TheUnusualSuspect
    WHY: N/A
    NOTE: N/A.[/quote] Don't live in a temperate climate do you? Yesterday afternoon I had the window rolled down in my car when I went to lunch, it wasn't exactly warm but warmer than it has been. On my way home from work however, the sun had gone down and the temp had dropped considerable the window stayed rolled up. I'll also point out that it's nighttime on Freedoms Progress and it's not so cold that a nearby river is frozen.

[quote](5) WHERE: Meeting Veetor.
    WHAT: The security camera footage showing the Collectors.
    TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: While we do not know much about Freedom's Progress compared to other colonies that have suffered abductions it cannot be assumed that it is any different from those other colonies. So why is there camera footage now and not from any other prior colony abduction?
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - and clearly not so. It is a major plot point that is thrown in to advance the plot with no explanation as to why suddenly such a thing now exists in an average colony. Also helps create plot hole #9.[/quote] What are quarians most famous for, besides creating the geth? Tech ability, particularly hacking. Veetor was an unknown quantity on Freedom's Progress he was obviously able to undo whatever the Collectors usually do to security since Miranda says he pieced it back together manually.

[quote](6) WHERE: Talking to TIM.
    WHAT: No account of background to call TIM's account of Cerberus.
    TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: Emphasises the railroading of Shepard down the one path that BioWare writers want us to travel down by ignoring an important aspect of what makes Shepard Shepard.
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - this basically breaks immersion in the character by showing how much lack of control the player has over the character when a few lines of dialog can easily allow a player to feel that they are more in control even if makes no difference in the end.[/quote] Shepard's objective, whether paragon or renegade, it to protect the galaxy from the Reapers. After you go to the Citadel and find out that the Alliance and the Council aren't doing a damn thing, so Shepard signs up with Cerberus because they are doing something. And at the end of the game you have the option of ditching Cerberus, which is what my Shep did, and to take one of his best operative with you. Image IPB

[quote](7) WHERE: PURGATORY
    WHAT: Being betrayed by the Warden and thus having to fight to leave.
    TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: Nothing in the game up to this point indicates that a bounty is on Shepard's head which can be excused if an explanation is forthcoming at some point. However nothing is said at any point during the rest of the game as to why this action is taken thus leaving it a mystery.
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - this comes out of the blue (no pun intended). It appears to be just a plot device to allow some combat and to highlight Jack's abilities without any other justification though it also introduces plot hole #8 by its presence.[/quote] At this point in the story no you don't know why, but does it really matter? Later when you tallk to Liara you find out that the Shadow Broker tried to sell Shep's body to the Collectors. Considering how shady the warden (and the fact that he sells prisoners, Cerberus is paying to have Jack released)  is I wouldn't be surprised if he was going to sell you to the Shadow Broker. And if not that, Shepard has made a few enemies over the years. I mean in the first game if you played the War Hero background Elios Halliat tries to blow you up with a nuke for foiling his plans at Elysium.

[quote](8) WHERE: PURGATORY
    WHAT: Jack's biotic abilities.
    TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: In essence we are shown that Jack can take out 3 YMIR Mechs (perhaps 4 by the wreckage we can see), punch holes through bulkheads and walls and literally lay waste to a high security space station yet her ingame combat abilities never match this in any way, shape or form.
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - some licence is allowable within cutscenes but the amount taken here is too extreme. It gives an impression of power to Jack which is impossible in combat at any time. Had plot hole #7 not been there by just allowing Shepard and company to walk out two plot holes could have been easily avoided.[/quote] Shouldn't you be criticizing Samara then too? I mean in the cutscene when you see her for the first time she levetates herself with her biotics... I never say her do that in battle when she was in the party... And Jack's shockwave is damn near that powerful.

[quote](9) WHERE: Councillor Anderson's office on the Citadel
    WHAT: Gathered evidence such as security camera footage from Freedom's Progress, DNA evidence from the Collector ship, the attack on Horizon, the derelict Reaper or information from Legion convinces the Council that there is a Reaper threat.
    TYPE: Category 2, MAGIC WAND
    WHY: This is a plot hole that gets worse the longer you take to visit Anderson on the Citadel. Quite literally the Council is supposed to be stupid but the evidence you can accumulate is beyond belief in it being able to be ignored. Moreover Shepard only needs to go public with that evidence of incompetence and the political fallout for the Council/Alliance should have anyone denying the truth of the threat running for cover because of the political ****storm that would occur.
    NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - this is pure bad writing at its finest. It is intended to emphasise that Shepard cannot get support from the Council/Alliance but the way this is handled is amateurish beyond belief. Emily Wong would have a field day if you had the option to bring it to her attention.[/quote]  Maybe because at this point there is nothing to connect the Collectors to the Reapers. All you would get is an "ah, Reapers" speech again.

[quote](10) WHERE: Garrus' Stronghold on Omega
     WHAT: Opening and closing of a door without explanation
     TYPE; Category 1, MAGIC WAND
     WHY: The one room you find Garrus in has one door. This is apparently a very smart door in so far as it opens and closes and locks at the most dramatic moments regardless of whether or not it makes sense. That is it is closed and locked when you come across the infiltration team trying to get in (makes sense) but then is open for the rest of the mission (makes no sense) until the gunship appears when it suddenly closes and locks by itself (makes no sense).
     NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - this is a device to try to inject tension into the combat but could have been avoided by a better level design so that such tricks need not be used.[/quote] You'll notice that Garrus uses his omni tool in that cutscene. Is it such a leap of logic to believe that Garrus unlocked the door for Shepard and then relocked to after she finished closing the shutters?

[quote](11) WHERE: Ventilation area near the fans on Mordin recruit mission.
     WHAT: Some Krogan are the enemies who are trying to stop you putting the cure into the ventalation system when even they are supposedly not immune to the plague in the quarantine area.
     TYPE: Category 1, MAGIC WAND
     WHY: It is explained that the plague affects all races except Vorcha and Humans yet here we have Krogan running around breathing the contaminated air. It invalidates the whole talk with the sick Batarian at the entrance to the area when you try to point out others could be responsible. If they are immune because of having been immunised then that fact plus vorcha should scream Blood Pack. If there are not immune then what the heck are they doing there?
     NOTE: NOT ACCEPTABLE - poor planning for the combat in putting in Krogan. The varied amount of vorcha there were already a challenge without then introducing another enemy that invalidates dialog just prior to that point.
[/quote]
Why aren't you complaining about the Turians that are guarding the entrance to the district if it's such a big deal. And there is also the possiblity that it effects different races at a different rate. Krogan are well known for their survivablity.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 04 mars 2010 - 04:05 .


#195
Terraneaux

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SurfaceBeneath wrote...

My personal feeling is that sometime in the third game the Illusive Man will actually be featured as more or less the main villain. Sure, the Reapers are huge, but they're a faceless threat and not really all that interesting as antagonists. Will he get away at the end? Meh, we'll see. Though, quite frankly, I've always been a fan of the Karma Houdini


If TIM pulls a Karma Houdini I'm going to be raging.  If there's a *chance* that TIM pulls a Karma Houdini based on what happens, then it's kind of irritating, but acceptable.  If anyone gets a Karma Houdidni it should be RenShep, though that's a lot of bad Karma to get out of.

#196
WindOverTuchanka

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Bah, I was hoping for some new points in the OP, yet there are none. There goes my entertainment for the evening...

Terraneaux wrote...

If TIM pulls a Karma Houdini I'm going to be raging.  If there's a *chance* that TIM pulls a Karma Houdini based on what happens, then it's kind of irritating, but acceptable.  If anyone gets a Karma Houdidni it should be RenShep, though that's a lot of bad Karma to get out of.


Why not? Technically, he is one step ahead of Shepard, so it will be in-character for him to pull a Karma Houdini.
... actually, I will be glad if he does. Pulling a trigger on him would make my Shepard uncomfortable. Killing the smartest man you ever met? Not my idea of good time.

Alas, done with discussion, moving on to silly pictures

Image IPB

Image IPB

Image IPB

#197
FataliTensei

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Excellent Job OP

#198
Darth Drago

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My little plot issues Well, ok bad writing and continuity with what’s seen on the screen in some cases. (some may seem like nitpicking but for me they stick out like the star behind TIM). I posted these in a similar topic a few hours ago as well.

1. Cerberus Lazarus base when Shepard wakes up. Just happens to have the N7 armor equipped and if a female Shepard has makeup on her face. So lets get this straight, I’ve been rebuilt, laying on lab table for the last 2 years and somebody just decided to slap some makeup on my face and dress me in my N7 armor coincidentally just before the crap hit’s the fan? Right….

2. Cerberus Lazarus base. Just before you meet Miranda but in the same room you can see 3 shuttles yet Miranda mentions that her shuttle is the last one. Instead of telling me that line how about just saying something like “Unless you can pilot a shuttle, feel free to stay.”?

3. Jack’s loyalty mission. You clearly see 2 dead varren yet Jack asks “Who killed that varren?” -that- as in a singular meaning usage.

4. When Samara swears her oath to follow you, Detective Anaya make a comment “I’ve never heard of a Justicar working with a human”. Like really? No kidding? Lets see, Justicars sound as rare or even more rarer than Spectres, they mainly stay in Asari space and humanity has only seen their first alien less than 30 years ago. So why would I even think that a Justicar and a human may have worked together in the first place before now? Maybe I should see if I can get a copy of all those vids that are made about them.

5. Who is the real threat in ME2? If it’s the Collectors then why am I fighting members of the mercenary groups Blue Sun’s, Eclipse and Blood Pack practically every mission? Do you really want me to believe that we couldn’t have seen more Collectors in a few side missions like we did the Geth in ME1? All it would have taken is to introduce a Collector shuttle or similar sized ship that they could have used.

6. EDI. In the N7 Lost Operative mission when you keep the Cerberus intel EDI says “I have logged and begun decryption of the data you recovered from the Eclipse base on Lorek. Preliminary searches show that the information pertains to illicit operations in which Cerberus was involved over the past five years. Should this information be released, it could severely hinder Cerberus' ability to operate openly in the galaxy.
It will take me a year or more to completely decrypt this information.”. Yet in the Investigate Collector Ship mission EDI can track the mutated Prothian DNA of the dead Collector to an exact planet it lived on in seconds? Lets see, break a code that was made by Cerberus in over a year or trace down where a 50,000 year old mutated Prothian lived in seconds. Anyone else see the problem?

#199
Avissel

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None of those are plots holes, and in fact you wake up in casual cloths and take your armor from the locker nearby.



But thanks for playing, have a copy of the home game.

#200
Exile Isan

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Darth Drago wrote...
1. Cerberus Lazarus base when Shepard wakes up. Just happens to have the N7 armor equipped and if a female Shepard has makeup on her face. So lets get this straight, I’ve been rebuilt, laying on lab table for the last 2 years and somebody just decided to slap some makeup on my face and dress me in my N7 armor coincidentally just before the crap hit’s the fan? Right….


Don't you know that's what GF's are for... to help you do your makeup and to help you accessorize your outfits? Image IPB