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[DoodleMG]

WARNING SPOILERS Abound

There were actually a number of things I noticed that inevitably lead to this decision. See, I've always been a hardcore Bioware fan... but quite frankly, the game itself seems ethically... well, wrong.

Now, the first few things I've noticed have nothing to do with ethics, so just follow me for the post if you will.

First off, the fuss about not allowing the importing of DLC items was quite frankly sad... It was just a poor decision... as they obviously admit to. It's all cool though, because they did listen and seem to be rectifying the situation (If I've read correctly).

The other thing that bothered me was the exclusion of romances. In a Bioware game, this just seems... wrong. This is a personal issue, especially since I realize that even our old relationships were basically turned into meaningless flings by this point... regardless of our character.

No, the main issue is the fact that they are trying to sell a new story as an EXPANSION, whereas an EXPANSION is meant to expand upon a story. To clarify: The original story was about YOUR grey warden as he/she struggled to bring the lands of Middle-Earth together with the aid of Vala Mal Doran, Puss in Boots and the rest of your motley crew.

It's pretty common knowledge that Expansions aren't intended to be used as sequels. They are meant to supplement the already existing material... not replace it as new content.

Sure, you can carry your character over into DAA, but not without first giving up pretty much everything that makes your character... well, your character. The most obvious point being the discussions going on on the forums right now: The fact that the climax in DAO that helped to define our character is going to be... well... meaningless.

Three Ending Examples:

You die when sacrificing yourself in service to the Grey Wardens... ending the Blight.
  In DAA = This never happens.

You have a bastard demon-child with Morrigan, survive and leave to travel the world with Lilliana
  In DAA = You appear to  abandon her several months later.

You again have a bastard demon-child with Morrigan, but this time leave to rule beside Alistair
  In DAA = You abandon him too, because Alistair is the whiniest King in the world. (Joking, but you get picture.  ((I actually liked Alistair fyi!)))

My point is... this isn't an expansion. This is a business decision designed to give players new content disguised as an expansion. Why would this be a bad thing? Because, if it's an expansion, you expect less than you would from a sequel... meaning they have to actually make less (This is what I find wrong.). My proof is basically in the design: It's just obviously not designed as an expansion to your existing story.

So yeah, this mostly only applies to Roleplayers, and those that want to be involved in their own story.

I own the Collector's Editions of ME, ME2 and DragonAge... but I'll be getting this one used. Thanks.

[Daerog]

As for travelling with your lover, it does say in the original epilogue that "you travel for a time then part ways." Part ways not permanently, but you both do separate things for a time, and DA:A is months after DA:O. You did your traveling, now you're back.

[DoodleMG]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

As for travelling with your lover, it does say in the original epilogue that "you travel for a time then part ways." Part ways not permanently, but you both do separate things for a time, and DA:A is months after DA:O. You did your traveling, now you're back.

Romances are a minor issue, although it still bugs me.

No, the main concern is... say, Booting up the Expansion for Baldur's Gate, and it telling you to upload a face or make a new character.

[Fycan]

Look at it storywise, they obviously send you to Amarantine tempoarily probably for a short period of time and thought u were gonna get back within a week. That's why no other companions went with you, then Bam it's under attack. And your char just got involved in it (the fighting) now if you gonna start having romances with other characters there while you are already married to Alistair(the king) or Anora(the queen) look how thats gonna turn out? I've never heard anything IRL about a King picking up new wife 3 months after he's married? or cheat? the whole Ferelden would hear about it. think of the consequences, thats why u cant have romances in Awakening.



I noticed those people who complained are ppl who are currently in a relationship with some of the characters And you plan to start a new relationship with other characters.. that would totally create too many possibilities for the new Expansion. that's wh yits not allowed.



well I havn't got in a relationship with any characters in all my 4 playthroughs due to them having such ugly faces, but i really like this new Mairin warrior, I'm pretty upset aswell that i cant have any relationship with her.

[DoodleMG]

That might work for that one character background. Whereas you marry into royalty.



As for the relationship issue... yeah, it's a big thing for roleplayers. Why bother allowing it if it doesn't matter on down the road. It's basically as silly as Ashley telling you to stuff it in ME2, whereas everyone else goes, "I'm here for you! Not the bad people!" 8D

[Nhadalie]

The only people who really miss out on a romance are the Orlesian Wardens and the characters who for some reason didn't stay together with the person who they romanced in Origins.



The romances before are mentioned, they just aren't a large part of the story. Since they're busy doing their own things, and you're busy doing yours. (Hell, Anora or Alistair have to rule the country. They can't abandon the country to help you rebuild the Wardens.)



It's not possible to script a game so that it mentions another specific PC dying to end the Blight, when you're playing another character. That is most likely why they chose the US ending to be turned into the canon if the player chooses to play that character in Awakening. If they simply put <CHARNAME> into those spots, it would be talking about the wrong character. It's just not possible to overlap it with a separate character's end story.



And I disagree. It is an expansion. It is the story of YOUR CHARACTER rebuilding the Grey Wardens. Yes, it has some continuity issues depending on your Origins romances. But I'm sure they addressed people who romanced Zevran or Lelianna in some way. They've stated multiple times that it's not like the romances never happened. The romances just aren't moving any further forward during the expansion.

[DoodleMG]

You're absolutely free to disagree. As I've already stated, this will not be MY CHARACTER rebuilding the Grey Wardens. My character is dead... unless he goes the way of the Shepard and the Million Dollar Man. At which case, this will expand upon that story.



But no, this is a different story, where you can place your character in the lead role. That is all.



This however will fit perfectly well for those that are without romances, or origin endings where the romances ended. Their character story will expand. The rest will not.

[Khayness]

If it will be half as good as Throne of Bhaal, it's money well spent. It passes for a third episode, won't mind the new story at all. Allowing us to make so much decisions just makes BioWare's problem harder, you have to admit it, that in the long run they will have to add so much additional content it will become a burden. But they just can't help raising the standards with each game, and thats why we love them!

Bored about the Baldur's Gate comparisons myself, but I just can't resist

Modifié par Khayness, 03 mars 2010 - 12:45 .

[abat223]

im sorry you feel that way...



some people don't care so much about the relationship as much as the story..



i think it will be a good expansion and a lot of fun, nothings perfect

[Nhadalie]

Not everyone did the ultimate sacrifice, nor is every character required to. So yes, it is still your character. It's simply a different character if you choose to play Orlesian Wardens. Yet again, it is your choice in how you wish to play it. It's not forced upon you, you have plenty of different options.



I'm more upset about there not being new romances for the characters who ended them than I am about the continued romances. Alistair is off busy being King, my HNF would understand.



My poor female mage PC is still wishing she could romance Anders however.



And how will the character stories not expand for those who romanced people in Origins? Just because their lover/husband/wife isn't there doesn't mean that their lives ended, or that they couldn't live without them being by their side for a bit.

[DoodleMG]

Khayness wrote...

If it will be half as good as Throne of Bhaal, it's money well spent. It passes for a third episode, won't mind the new story at all. Allowing us to make so much decisions just makes BioWare's problem harder, you have to admit it, that in the long run they will have to add so much additional content it will become a burden. But they just can't help raising the standards with each game, and thats why we love them!

Bored about the Baldur's Gate comparisons myself, but I just can't resist

Don't worry. I don't hang out on the forums all that much, so I can understand when someone does come out and say they've heard something a lot.

As for the Baldur's Gate comparisons... Bioware tooootally opened that can of worms on their own with that whole "Spritual Succesor" comment. It totally is the closest thing to Baldur's Gate though, so I'm not complaining about that. (In fact, I like it more than Baldur's Gate. *Hides face from fanboys/fangirls*)

No no, even in ME2 most of the choices from ME1 were mostly dialogue based, so it's proven it doesn't have to be anything big. More than half of it can be left out. The only choices most really care about carrying over are: Items, Romances, Dead/Not Dead.

All of which... well, failed.

[DoodleMG]

Nhadalie wrote...

Not everyone did the ultimate sacrifice, nor is every character required to. So yes, it is still your character. It's simply a different character if you choose to play Orlesian Wardens. Yet again, it is your choice in how you wish to play it. It's not forced upon you, you have plenty of different options.

I'm more upset about there not being new romances for the characters who ended them than I am about the continued romances. Alistair is off busy being King, my HNF would understand.

My poor female mage PC is still wishing she could romance Anders however.

And how will the character stories not expand for those who romanced people in Origins? Just because their lover/husband/wife isn't there doesn't mean that their lives ended, or that they couldn't live without them being by their side for a bit.

Eh. No. Now you're wasting text. On your first argument I mean. NO, if MY CHARACTER died, then it is not MY CHARACTER. If YOUR character died, then it is NOT YOUR character. And yes, the fact that you lived is forced upon you in that sense. No, you don't have to play that way, but you do if you want to play as your character, WHO DIED. End of story.

We understand about people being king and being busy... again, romances a minor issue that we'll all get over.

[Drasanil]

I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of what exactly constitutes an expansion. Shadows of Undrentide, and Hordes of the Underdark were both expansions, and neither had anything to do with the Original NWN campaign story wise, and little to do with each other apart for import your character.



If anything DA:A should be a far better continuation of the original game than either of the mentioned above. Major descisions carry over, romances are acknowledged, and you play with the same character a before, how is this not an expansion? It's a direct continuation of the previous story line dealing with aftermath of your victory, not a brand new story taking place in Tevinter where you play a rebel Qunari Blood Mage who fleed the oppressive tongue cutting Por Vallen.

[Nhadalie]

You also completely ignored my point that they can't make it so that your old Warden is mentioned by name. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to code a game to choose another character file to fill in for the "Hero of Fereldan". If you choose to play as an Orlesian Warden, it most likely will reference the "Hero of Fereldan" vaguely. And it'll of course be the canon way, because it's impossible to code it differently.



Technically, EVERY character you make is considered your character.



And what else were you hoping for? A magical way to say that your character was resurrected from the dead? Either they can ignore the US epilogue, or they can magically god mod it. Ignoring the US epilogue is the option that is less likely to upset people. Since it is still the player's choice on whether they wish to continue on with that character or not.

[DoodleMG]

Drasanil wrote...

I think you're being a bit too literal in your interpretation of what exactly constitutes an expansion. Shadows of Undrentide, and Hordes of the Underdark were both expansions, and neither had anything to do with the Original NWN campaign story wise, and little to do with each other apart for import your character.

If anything DA:A should be a far better continuation of the original game than either of the mentioned above. Major descisions carry over, romances are acknowledged, and you play with the same character a before, how is this not an expansion? It's a direct continuation of the previous story line dealing with aftermath of your victory, not a brand new story taking place in Tevinter where you play a rebel Qunari Blood Mage who fleed the oppressive tongue cutting Por Vallen.

Your final, biggest decision, doesn't carry over & Romances being mentioned is barely acknowledgement. This means that the face I import will not be my character. That's what that means. As for Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark, there's actually a reason I never bought those either. It was the same justification.

And it's not direct. It's a different story, taking place in a different part of the world, that has to do with a more personal nature of the Wardens. It has the same world for it's setting and lore, but that's all.

[DoodleMG]

Nhadalie wrote...

You also completely ignored my point that they can't make it so that your old Warden is mentioned by name. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to code a game to choose another character file to fill in for the "Hero of Fereldan". If you choose to play as an Orlesian Warden, it most likely will reference the "Hero of Fereldan" vaguely. And it'll of course be the canon way, because it's impossible to code it differently.

Technically, EVERY character you make is considered your character.

And what else were you hoping for? A magical way to say that your character was resurrected from the dead? Either they can ignore the US epilogue, or they can magically god mod it. Ignoring the US epilogue is the option that is less likely to upset people. Since it is still the player's choice on whether they wish to continue on with that character or not.

That's because your first point was thwarted by the first game itself. Nobody calls you by name in the first game either, since voice acting makes it technically impossible. Seriously, this is obvious stuff.

And yes, if I got make another character that fits the mold of the "expansion", he/she will be mine. That's not the point though. The point is that it forces you to fit that mold, so all other characters don't fit.

As for your last point... you assume way too much. I asked for acknowledgement of that ending. So yes, either go Million-Dollar-Man like Shepard (That means rebuild him/her, since you obviously don't get the reference) or don't bring the character back and just let our choices ma-... why am I explaining this to you?

I'm buying it used, and those are my reasons.

[pvpgirl]

If it were being marketed as a completely new and seperate game, I wouldn't expect my starfang or wardens armor to carry over. But there are items that came from dlc that was payed for by consumers that won't carry over to an expansion? How the hell does that happen? Shouldn't an expansion be compatable with the main game? DLC is supposed premium content to the main game..that is now useless.



That is what makes me the most upset. Had I known Calin's armor would poof away in 2 weeks, I wouldn't have waisted the 5$ last month for a whole extra 30 mins..if I walked slow..of worthless 'premium content'.



'OMGosh dude! why are you naked?'

'Yeah, well, you know that new expansion?'

'Yeah, Throne of Oblivion?

'That's the one. Well I guess my armor from Rise of Chaos doesn't carry over.'



Pfft..could you imagine Warcraft (omgosh yes I know mmo vs single player = apples vs oranges) if your armor weren't compatable with future expansions?



'Sweet! New xpac goes live today! Time for me and 10000000000 other nerds to go fist to death some neutral mobs right outside the 1st town while naked! Now there's a fun time on a Saturday night! Who wants whipcream?'

[Nhadalie]

DoodleMG wrote...


That's because your first point was thwarted by the first game itself. Nobody calls you by name in the first game either, since voice acting makes it technically impossible. Seriously, this is obvious stuff.

And yes, if I got make another character that fits the mold of the "expansion", he/she will be mine. That's not the point though. The point is that it forces you to fit that mold, so all other characters don't fit.

As for your last point... you assume way too much. I asked for acknowledgement of that ending. So yes, either go Million-Dollar-Man like Shepard (That means rebuild him/her, since you obviously don't get the reference) or don't bring the character back and just let our choices ma-... why am I explaining this to you?

I'm buying it used, and those are my reasons.

Is it bad that I never noticed the voice over thing? I'm apparently far too used to NWN and BG.(This is when I blame the blonde-ness. Or at least.. My HNF's blondeness. ~points at avatar~)


Also, the mold that you speak of has many different options. I'm not particularly fond of completely selfless characters, so I've yet to do the US ending. That's just how my characters so far have been though. Hell, you can make someone else throw themselves at the archdemon and die instead of doing the ritual if you don't want Morrigan to have someone's "demon" baby as they call it in the game.


I've never played ME. So no. I don't know the specifics on the situation there. I do recognize the character names however.

And I don't know. Why are you explaining it to me?

You're still buying it either way. So obviously it doesn't bother you as much as it seems to. And you so missed out by not buying Hordes of the Underdark. Probably the best romances in all of NWN1.

[Nhadalie]

Actually. They're working on making DLC content work with Awakenings now. There's another topic on the forums about RtO being compatible with Awakenings now. I think they're still working on Warden's Keep. Which.. Doesn't really matter to me since I don't have the latter.

I do quite like being able to keep all of Duncan's weapons for Awakenings though.

Modifié par Nhadalie, 03 mars 2010 - 01:25 .

[DoodleMG]

It's true! I actually made mention in my first post that they were fixing the items thing. xD Which is cool, since it means they are listening!



But actually, see... I may still be buying it, but buying it used is actually a big difference for Bioware. When you buy used, that money goes toward the place you purchased the used copy... not the publisher.



Cha-Ching!

[DoodleMG]

And yeah, a lot of people aren't like me... but I've always gone all the way in things... hence the selfless ending... even though I really did want to avoid it by all means. I mean, I didn't want my character to die... but it had to be done. (So to speak.)

[Nhadalie]

I imagine they listen to everything the people say. But it's pretty damn hard to make everyone happy with budget and time restraints on everything.

I'm aware of that fact. I'm too excited about Awakenings to wait to find it used. Not to mention.. I convinced my parents to pre-order it as my present for my 19th birthday a couple weeks ago.


I actually go through and make very complex characters with their own personalities and back stories.. So.. They tend not to be very selfless like that. I'm still trying to figure out which character I have might do that. I have no idea at the moment. Which is.. Rather sad, considering I have like 8 different characters in my head.

Modifié par Nhadalie, 03 mars 2010 - 01:33 .

[Drasanil]

DoodleMG wrote...
Your final, biggest decision, doesn't carry over

 
One of your possible final decisions does't carry over, maybe, and for technical reasons. Were you expecting Bioware to rebuild the game engine just to accomidate one of many possible endings? It's still possible you might be able to have your choices reflected in game via a pre-start convo involving the new Warden and an NPC.

& Romances being mentioned is barely acknowledgement. This means that the face I import will not be my character.

 I can't begin to think how to reply to this really... Unless you only did one play-through with a single save where you're locked into killing the archdemon... and even at that it pushes the absurd.

Why don't you just come out and say you're upset because you can't get some cyber-bootie and pixel-******? Because that's what your argument boils down to, at least have the honesty to admit it, instead of claiming Bioware some how violated your "ethics".

And it's not direct. It's a different story, taking place in a different part of the world, that has to do with a more personal nature of the Wardens. It has the same world for it's setting and lore, but that's all.

It's a direct continuation of the original story, it takes place in the exact same part of the world -Ferelden- as the original game, features a good deal of characters from the original game, and even changes to reflect the choices your imported character* from the original game makes. This is fact.

*How US is handled remains to be seen.

[DoodleMG]

Yeah... I'm 23. I have to buy all of my Collector's Editions and game copies myself. xD As for my first character, he was also very complex... which is why he ended up losing EVERYTHING in the end. Killing the archdemon was partly due to this. Seeing as how his woman wanted him to create a demon spawn while he was trying to purge the world of demons... and then leaves him on the eve of battle.



It sucked.

[DoodleMG]

Drasanil wrote...

DoodleMG wrote...
Your final, biggest decision, doesn't carry over

 
One of your possible final decisions does't carry over, maybe, and for technical reasons. Were you expecting Bioware to rebuild the game engine just to accomidate one of many possible endings? It's still possible you might be able to have your choices reflected in game via a pre-start convo involving the new Warden and an NPC.

& Romances being mentioned is barely acknowledgement. This means that the face I import will not be my character.

 I can't begin to think how to reply to this really... Unless you only did one play-through with a single save where you're locked into killing the archdemon... and even at that it pushes the absurd.

Why don't you just come out and say you're upset because you can't get some cyber-bootie and pixel-******? Because that's what your argument boils down to, at least have the honesty to admit it, instead of claiming Bioware some how violated your "ethics".

And it's not direct. It's a different story, taking place in a different part of the world, that has to do with a more personal nature of the Wardens. It has the same world for it's setting and lore, but that's all.

It's a direct continuation of the original story, it takes place in the exact same part of the world -Ferelden- as the original game, features a good deal of characters from the original game, and even changes to reflect the choices your imported character* from the original game makes. This is fact.

*How US is handled remains to be seen.

Wooooooooowwwwww. Rebuild the engine for one cutscene/explanation? Are you seeerrrious? Wow guy. Just wow. Seriously, read more than just the recent posts: I've said like FIVE TIMES, relationships are MINOR, and the story -... look, just... learn to read. It's all there.

Good Boy.