Hi all,
I've been reading a lot about how the Shapeshifter is utterly useless, which leads me to wonder what I should do for my 1st playthrough as a mage. I thought becoming an AW will increase my ability to fighter in shapeshifted forms, but according to most guides I read that's not the case, spellpower determines the form's power. Don't the bonus I get from AW gears stack when I shapeshift? What should I do with my 2nd specialization? And my stats? What's YOUR opinion on the combo?
Shapeshifter + Arcane Warrior
Débuté par
Speakeasy13
, mars 03 2010 12:48
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#3
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:23
Hahren
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I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to accomplish. Are you basically trying to double dip combat bonuses based on the magic attribute?
Here is what I found on the mechanics from the wiki:
"When the caster assumes a new form his strength, dexterity and constitution attributes are replaced by those of his chosen form's, which in turn are determined by his total spellpower. If any of the caster's attributes were originally higher than those of his chosen form's these will be left unchanged. Bonuses from items that improve any of the mage's attributes (including bonuses to armor, armor penetration, defense, damage and others) are calculated after changing forms."
Also...
" * Casters generally do not have access to potions and other items while in an alternative form.
* A mage using a staff prior to shifting will hit enemies automatically when performing physical attacks. He/she will be unable to perform critical hits, however.
* A mage using any other weapon (including bare fists) can miss while shifted, but will be able to perform critical hits.
* Temporary boosts to spellpower like those from sustained spells like Spell Wisp are ignored when shapeshifting.
* Most defensive bonuses (physical or mental resistance bonuses, elemental resistance bonuses) from items like weapons,armor and shields are carried over when shifting.
* Most offensive bonuses (+x damage, +x elemental damage, +x damage to undead) from items like weapons, armor and shields are not carried over when shifting.
* All forms are generally faster than humanoids.
* The mage gains several resistances and immunities that are unique to Shapeshifter specialization when changing forms. Among those known are increased nature resistance, increased physical resistance (uncommon for a mage), knockback (like the Champion's War Cry) immunity and grab immunity (like the High Dragon's grab attack).
* Combat Training bonuses works normally while shapeshifted.
* Sustained spells are automatically deactivated when shapeshifting.
* Changing back to human form happens instantly, and can be done while the game is paused.
* The armor rating for the Spider and Bear Forms are taken from either a default, fixed value or from the mage's base armor, whichever is higher. If the mage's armor is higher than the Bear Form's base armor, he/she also gets a +10 bonus to armor.
* Only armor penetration is currently known to be based on the mage's equipped weapon."
Since sustained spells drop when you shift the AW spell "Combat Magic" will not work. However, since you can use magic to qualify for armor the armor value should carry over. So you could just spend the specialization slot on AW, and 1 talent on Combat Magic to use magic for armor. This way you can specialize in pumping the magic attribute while a form will handle the physical stats.
I've never been that impressed with shapeshifter. You lose spell casting so you may want another mage. Though if you are going to lose spell casting to melee why not play a warrior? If you want to have spells, and occasionally melee why not play an arcane warrior? I get that you are looking to try something different, but shapeshifter is overshadowed in every way by something else. If you understand that then more power to you, and I hope you have fun.
Here is what I found on the mechanics from the wiki:
"When the caster assumes a new form his strength, dexterity and constitution attributes are replaced by those of his chosen form's, which in turn are determined by his total spellpower. If any of the caster's attributes were originally higher than those of his chosen form's these will be left unchanged. Bonuses from items that improve any of the mage's attributes (including bonuses to armor, armor penetration, defense, damage and others) are calculated after changing forms."
Also...
" * Casters generally do not have access to potions and other items while in an alternative form.
* A mage using a staff prior to shifting will hit enemies automatically when performing physical attacks. He/she will be unable to perform critical hits, however.
* A mage using any other weapon (including bare fists) can miss while shifted, but will be able to perform critical hits.
* Temporary boosts to spellpower like those from sustained spells like Spell Wisp are ignored when shapeshifting.
* Most defensive bonuses (physical or mental resistance bonuses, elemental resistance bonuses) from items like weapons,armor and shields are carried over when shifting.
* Most offensive bonuses (+x damage, +x elemental damage, +x damage to undead) from items like weapons, armor and shields are not carried over when shifting.
* All forms are generally faster than humanoids.
* The mage gains several resistances and immunities that are unique to Shapeshifter specialization when changing forms. Among those known are increased nature resistance, increased physical resistance (uncommon for a mage), knockback (like the Champion's War Cry) immunity and grab immunity (like the High Dragon's grab attack).
* Combat Training bonuses works normally while shapeshifted.
* Sustained spells are automatically deactivated when shapeshifting.
* Changing back to human form happens instantly, and can be done while the game is paused.
* The armor rating for the Spider and Bear Forms are taken from either a default, fixed value or from the mage's base armor, whichever is higher. If the mage's armor is higher than the Bear Form's base armor, he/she also gets a +10 bonus to armor.
* Only armor penetration is currently known to be based on the mage's equipped weapon."
Since sustained spells drop when you shift the AW spell "Combat Magic" will not work. However, since you can use magic to qualify for armor the armor value should carry over. So you could just spend the specialization slot on AW, and 1 talent on Combat Magic to use magic for armor. This way you can specialize in pumping the magic attribute while a form will handle the physical stats.
I've never been that impressed with shapeshifter. You lose spell casting so you may want another mage. Though if you are going to lose spell casting to melee why not play a warrior? If you want to have spells, and occasionally melee why not play an arcane warrior? I get that you are looking to try something different, but shapeshifter is overshadowed in every way by something else. If you understand that then more power to you, and I hope you have fun.
#4
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:57
Meliorist13
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If you are curious about Shapeshifting and any other specialty, read this entire post...x-president's Shapeshifting guide ....in the Gameplay and Strategy Forum.
Modifié par Meliorist13, 03 mars 2010 - 02:15 .
#5
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 07:11
TBastian
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You are not sacrificing any spellcasting by shapeshifting since if your mage dies he won't be able to cast spells either. You can also Shapeshift when you're out of mana, your spells are in cooldown or your spells are ineffective against the type of enemy you're fighting. Shifting back to human form is instant, so as soon as the danger has passed/your spells are ready you can just pause, shift back, and resume casting. Your mage can do all that in a second.
The mechanics of shapeshifting are simply ill-understood, and the mechanics posted in the wiki are only the most basic ones.
The Shapeshifter (except for specialized builds like x-president's) is basically a mage with melee options, while the Arcane Warrior basically becomes a warrior with casting options. Which is why mixing them together can be so complicated. Arcane Warrior does improve your forms significantly, but both specs hate each other almost as much as Spirit Healer/Blood Mage in practice. If you manage to find some middle ground between specs though, in terms of sustained(AW)/active(SS) spell balance, offensive(AW)/defensive(SS) weapon bonuses balance, and weapon choice balance then you could make them work.
The mechanics of shapeshifting are simply ill-understood, and the mechanics posted in the wiki are only the most basic ones.
The Shapeshifter (except for specialized builds like x-president's) is basically a mage with melee options, while the Arcane Warrior basically becomes a warrior with casting options. Which is why mixing them together can be so complicated. Arcane Warrior does improve your forms significantly, but both specs hate each other almost as much as Spirit Healer/Blood Mage in practice. If you manage to find some middle ground between specs though, in terms of sustained(AW)/active(SS) spell balance, offensive(AW)/defensive(SS) weapon bonuses balance, and weapon choice balance then you could make them work.
Modifié par TBastian, 03 mars 2010 - 07:17 .
#6
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 10:00
Anonymouswizard
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I always go for blood mage and spirit healer for a main character mage, so I can heal others while draining their health.
For Wynne I go arcane warrior, as she is my main healer and so needs to survive.
I make morrigan a blood mage.
Shapeshifter is the weakest specialization by most accounts, but I found a mod that turned you into boss monsters (renervent, pride demon, ogre and archdemon).
For Wynne I go arcane warrior, as she is my main healer and so needs to survive.
I make morrigan a blood mage.
Shapeshifter is the weakest specialization by most accounts, but I found a mod that turned you into boss monsters (renervent, pride demon, ogre and archdemon).
#7
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 11:12
TBastian
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Not the weakest by far, used properly.
You don't need mods, except probably one that fixes the Shapeshifter AI weapon switch bug.
You don't need mods, except probably one that fixes the Shapeshifter AI weapon switch bug.
#8
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 11:42
Mr_Raider
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A full magic SS can benefit from 1 talent in AW spec, later in the game. Bear form adds +10 to armor, and your are immune to grabbing. Equipped in massive armor, you can get a rating of 45, which can allow you to tank revenants and dragons or the like.
High spellpower makes swarm form quite effective, and spider web is pretty nice to hold opponents inside AoE like inferno.
Personally I use an instant shift mod.
High spellpower makes swarm form quite effective, and spider web is pretty nice to hold opponents inside AoE like inferno.
Personally I use an instant shift mod.
#9
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 02:09
Hahren
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TBastian wrote...
The Shapeshifter (except for specialized builds like x-president's) is basically a mage with melee options, while the Arcane Warrior basically becomes a warrior with casting options. Which is why mixing them together can be so complicated. Arcane Warrior does improve your forms significantly, but both specs hate each other almost as much as Spirit Healer/Blood Mage in practice. If you manage to find some middle ground between specs though, in terms of sustained(AW)/active(SS) spell balance, offensive(AW)/defensive(SS) weapon bonuses balance, and weapon choice balance then you could make them work.
Agree to disagree.
#10
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 02:21
TBastian
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Then prove your theory because I can prove mine.
Well? Have you even extensively studied the class? I would like to hear your reason for disagreeing besides "I read it from the boards" or "everyone else says so".
Especially since the stuff you decided to post were ripped form the wiki.
I would know, because I wrote some of that stuff.
Well? Have you even extensively studied the class? I would like to hear your reason for disagreeing besides "I read it from the boards" or "everyone else says so".
Especially since the stuff you decided to post were ripped form the wiki.
I would know, because I wrote some of that stuff.
Modifié par TBastian, 04 mars 2010 - 02:34 .
#11
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:42
Hahren
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TBastian wrote...
Then prove your theory because I can prove mine.
Well? Have you even extensively studied the class? I would like to hear your reason for disagreeing besides "I read it from the boards" or "everyone else says so".
Especially since the stuff you decided to post were ripped form the wiki.
I would know, because I wrote some of that stuff.
I never stated a theory. I stated my opinion. My opinion differs from yours. I don't see a reason to dissect your post to pin point the differences. It will accomplish nothing. You won't change my opinion, and I won't change yours.
I did preface the qouted material that it came from the wiki. It was a quick and basic citation. Consider it a foot note, and I didn't claim the information was mine. My option to disagree, and this reply are not ment as personal attacks. I just want to make myself clear.
#12
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 03:19
Gecon
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Shapeshifter is unmodded simply superflous. Yeah you can shapeshift, fine. But then you cant spellcast any more and you're a mediocre warrior. Yeah one of the forms allow to regen mana. Whats the point ? Mana Potions are all over the place, Mana regen from a form where you cannot cast any spells any more is really not of any practical interest. It also gives you a good defense, except against fire. Well yeah maybe thats useful sometimes, as an "oh sh..." button. Is that enough to skip over the features of any of the other three specs ? I dont think so.
With mods, you get a lot more from shapeshifter, of course.
With mods, you get a lot more from shapeshifter, of course.
#13
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 03:54
TBastian
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If you were only stating you opinion, then I apologize for my aggressive response. You simply left a 3 word statement as a reply that I mistook for a challenge rather than a statement.
Shapeshifter unmodded is very powerful. It is one of the most powerful specs in the game, you just have to know how it works. The tradeoff is that when you shift you can't cast spells, but common sense dictates that you can't exactly cast and fight at the same time anyway. A good player will simply deal by weaving both casting and shifting into a common strategy, and move on.
It is only a mediocre warrior when you don't know how to use it properly. Mana potions are plentiful yes, but so are powerful items with really, really high store prices that you can't exactly buy unless you bug. Feel free to choose mana potions over them, if that's you logic. And FYI you will run out of mana. It's just that way even with Dark Sustenance (especially if you're pure magic running +spellpower sustaineds, which is what Shapeshifters when not shifting). The only way to circumvent this is to use exploits (mana=stamina regen items, mass producing potent lyrium pots).
Starting resistance penalties can be easily dealt with (any player who's played through DA:O at least once shoulld know how), and FYI Lightning is far more dangerous to any Shapeshifter than fire.
Lightning drains mana, and can possibly end their forms.
Shapeshifter unmodded is very powerful. It is one of the most powerful specs in the game, you just have to know how it works. The tradeoff is that when you shift you can't cast spells, but common sense dictates that you can't exactly cast and fight at the same time anyway. A good player will simply deal by weaving both casting and shifting into a common strategy, and move on.
It is only a mediocre warrior when you don't know how to use it properly. Mana potions are plentiful yes, but so are powerful items with really, really high store prices that you can't exactly buy unless you bug. Feel free to choose mana potions over them, if that's you logic. And FYI you will run out of mana. It's just that way even with Dark Sustenance (especially if you're pure magic running +spellpower sustaineds, which is what Shapeshifters when not shifting). The only way to circumvent this is to use exploits (mana=stamina regen items, mass producing potent lyrium pots).
Starting resistance penalties can be easily dealt with (any player who's played through DA:O at least once shoulld know how), and FYI Lightning is far more dangerous to any Shapeshifter than fire.
Lightning drains mana, and can possibly end their forms.
Modifié par TBastian, 04 mars 2010 - 04:03 .
#14
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 05:01
nuculerman
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TBastian wrote...
If you were only stating you opinion, then I apologize for my aggressive response. You simply left a 3 word statement as a reply that I mistook for a challenge rather than a statement.
Shapeshifter unmodded is very powerful. It is one of the most powerful specs in the game, you just have to know how it works. The tradeoff is that when you shift you can't cast spells, but common sense dictates that you can't exactly cast and fight at the same time anyway. A good player will simply deal by weaving both casting and shifting into a common strategy, and move on.
It is only a mediocre warrior when you don't know how to use it properly. Mana potions are plentiful yes, but so are powerful items with really, really high store prices that you can't exactly buy unless you bug. Feel free to choose mana potions over them, if that's you logic. And FYI you will run out of mana. It's just that way even with Dark Sustenance (especially if you're pure magic running +spellpower sustaineds, which is what Shapeshifters when not shifting). The only way to circumvent this is to use exploits (mana=stamina regen items, mass producing potent lyrium pots).
Starting resistance penalties can be easily dealt with (any player who's played through DA:O at least once shoulld know how), and FYI Lightning is far more dangerous to any Shapeshifter than fire.
Lightning drains mana, and can possibly end their forms.
Having played every mage class extensively I'm going to have to disagree with you as well. Shapeshifter is just a severely nerfed Arcane Warrior, and a DPS/CC specced SH/BM could kick the crap out of any Shapeshifter.
As for a SS/AW build, that seems entirely silly. Shimmering Shield is more effective than Flying Swarm, and an AW with Rock Armor, Arcane Shield, and decent armor has much more melee survivability than Berserker Bear, and does far more DPS with Haste and a decent sword. All that would happen is you'd never use a single Shapeshifting ability. Anything you'd need it for would be replaced by the AW counterpart.
#15
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 05:16
TBastian
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Well then.
Do you know that the forms retain their base attack speed regardless of weapons used prior to shifting?
Do you know that there is a single, two-handed weapon in the game with no strength requirement?
Do you know that with just 20 strength your mage has access to some very nice weapons/armors that can greatly boost your forms?
Do you know that the forms are immune to attacks like Grab and Overwhelm?
Do you know that they are immune to knockdown? (not knock back)
Do you know that Bear Form gives you a +10 bonus to armor?
Do you know that a Shapeshifter can reach 30 armor at early game without the Blood Dragon Armor set?
Do you have any idea how powerful in early game two characters walking around with 30+ armor can be? (one is using the Blood Dragon Armor set)
Do you know how powerful a pure/semi-pure magic character can be when he can shift into something with 30 armor?
Do you know that Spider Form has ridiculous attack speed?
Do you know that the Swarm can kite anything but gigantic monsters?
Do you know how Overwhelm works?
These are but an overview of Shapeshifter mechanics and what a Shapeshifter is capable of when properly used.
There are other, much more advanced stuff. A Shapeshifter is in fact quite capable of out-damaging an AW easily in melee, especially when its target is immune to Overwhelm... No, I didn't say that wrong.
AW/Shapeshifter allows pure magic Shapeshifters to use weapons/gear they wouldn't be able to use otherwise. It's just very difficult to make both specs work well together.
Do you know that the forms retain their base attack speed regardless of weapons used prior to shifting?
Do you know that there is a single, two-handed weapon in the game with no strength requirement?
Do you know that with just 20 strength your mage has access to some very nice weapons/armors that can greatly boost your forms?
Do you know that the forms are immune to attacks like Grab and Overwhelm?
Do you know that they are immune to knockdown? (not knock back)
Do you know that Bear Form gives you a +10 bonus to armor?
Do you know that a Shapeshifter can reach 30 armor at early game without the Blood Dragon Armor set?
Do you have any idea how powerful in early game two characters walking around with 30+ armor can be? (one is using the Blood Dragon Armor set)
Do you know how powerful a pure/semi-pure magic character can be when he can shift into something with 30 armor?
Do you know that Spider Form has ridiculous attack speed?
Do you know that the Swarm can kite anything but gigantic monsters?
Do you know how Overwhelm works?
These are but an overview of Shapeshifter mechanics and what a Shapeshifter is capable of when properly used.
There are other, much more advanced stuff. A Shapeshifter is in fact quite capable of out-damaging an AW easily in melee, especially when its target is immune to Overwhelm... No, I didn't say that wrong.
AW/Shapeshifter allows pure magic Shapeshifters to use weapons/gear they wouldn't be able to use otherwise. It's just very difficult to make both specs work well together.
Modifié par TBastian, 04 mars 2010 - 05:35 .
#16
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:12
nuculerman
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Hmm...
Do you know that in my three complete playthroughs on nightmare I've never needed to kite a single enemy?
Do you know that a properly specced AW can solo the High Dragon, regardless of his lack of knockdown immunity?
Do you know that a properly specced AW can compete with a DW warrior in DPS and is better at tanking than a sword/board warrior?
Do you know that an AW can reach 30 armor as soon as he hits level 7? Is that early enough in the game for you? True, they are all DLC sets, but it doesn't take much longer to save up the money to afford the non-DLC sets or find them
Do you realize that damage avoidance and damage mitigation are two separate things? Do you realize that an AW can meet a SS pound for pound on damage mitigation but blow it completely away in damage avoidance?
Do you have any idea how powerful Blood Wound is, and how much better BM compliments AW than SS?
I'm not really sure what you're arguing. If you're really trying to argue that SS is more powerful than AW have about 300 solo AW players on these forums who are laughing their ass off right about now. If you just want to prove that SS isn't as bad as most of us make it out to be, then we really don't have anything to argue about. I'd still take SS over most rogue and warrior builds, but it really is the weakest mage specialization. Though, personally, I don't think it's the fault of SS, more than it is the simple fact that you can take two specializations and the other three work so much better with each other than any of them do with SS.
Do you know that in my three complete playthroughs on nightmare I've never needed to kite a single enemy?
Do you know that a properly specced AW can solo the High Dragon, regardless of his lack of knockdown immunity?
Do you know that a properly specced AW can compete with a DW warrior in DPS and is better at tanking than a sword/board warrior?
Do you know that an AW can reach 30 armor as soon as he hits level 7? Is that early enough in the game for you? True, they are all DLC sets, but it doesn't take much longer to save up the money to afford the non-DLC sets or find them
Do you realize that damage avoidance and damage mitigation are two separate things? Do you realize that an AW can meet a SS pound for pound on damage mitigation but blow it completely away in damage avoidance?
Do you have any idea how powerful Blood Wound is, and how much better BM compliments AW than SS?
I'm not really sure what you're arguing. If you're really trying to argue that SS is more powerful than AW have about 300 solo AW players on these forums who are laughing their ass off right about now. If you just want to prove that SS isn't as bad as most of us make it out to be, then we really don't have anything to argue about. I'd still take SS over most rogue and warrior builds, but it really is the weakest mage specialization. Though, personally, I don't think it's the fault of SS, more than it is the simple fact that you can take two specializations and the other three work so much better with each other than any of them do with SS.
#17
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:32
TBastian
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Really now. Then I find it how odd that you can survive entering a room with a demon and 5 or so templars and survive the barrage of Holy Smites and cold spells that follow. Unless you are saying that you cam somehow get Shimmering Shield as soon as you set out of Lothering. Without XP bugs anyway.
And you don't think a Shapeshifter can solo the High Dragon? Don't be ridiculous. Mages with no specialization have soloed it and lived to tell the tale.
And do you know that a Shapeshifter can do as much damage as a two-hander warrior? Yes they can.
For some reason I don't think you even bothered to read my post and think about the implications. You didn't even to bother read the part where it says a Shapeshifter can have two characters with 30+ armor (3, if you get Morrigan early) did you? Yes you probably didn't. A shame, since I bothered to read and digest the entirety of your posts.
Your damage avoidance vs damage mitigation point being?
Yes I know about Blood Wound, and I also know it's limitations.
Then I feel sad for those 300 solo AW players.
Very interesting post from someone would imply that he knows enough about the Shapeshifter. Oh I know about Arcane Warriors. I've seen the vids, the solo runs, read the guides, participated in the discussions, helped with the formulas, tested setups. The only thing I haven't done with them is solo one for myself, since I no longer found any point in doing so. There are at least 2 or so sets solo AW vids currently in youtube. More in other sites, probably.
But I also just happen to know a lot about the Shapeshifter.
Shapeshifter vs AW? Don't be ridiculous. Even I won't claim to know enough to decisively answer that challenge. I do know however that Shapeshifer is a very strong specialization, and has a good fighting chance.
And you don't think a Shapeshifter can solo the High Dragon? Don't be ridiculous. Mages with no specialization have soloed it and lived to tell the tale.
And do you know that a Shapeshifter can do as much damage as a two-hander warrior? Yes they can.
For some reason I don't think you even bothered to read my post and think about the implications. You didn't even to bother read the part where it says a Shapeshifter can have two characters with 30+ armor (3, if you get Morrigan early) did you? Yes you probably didn't. A shame, since I bothered to read and digest the entirety of your posts.
Your damage avoidance vs damage mitigation point being?
Yes I know about Blood Wound, and I also know it's limitations.
Then I feel sad for those 300 solo AW players.
Very interesting post from someone would imply that he knows enough about the Shapeshifter. Oh I know about Arcane Warriors. I've seen the vids, the solo runs, read the guides, participated in the discussions, helped with the formulas, tested setups. The only thing I haven't done with them is solo one for myself, since I no longer found any point in doing so. There are at least 2 or so sets solo AW vids currently in youtube. More in other sites, probably.
But I also just happen to know a lot about the Shapeshifter.
Shapeshifter vs AW? Don't be ridiculous. Even I won't claim to know enough to decisively answer that challenge. I do know however that Shapeshifer is a very strong specialization, and has a good fighting chance.
Modifié par TBastian, 04 mars 2010 - 06:45 .
#18
Posté 05 mars 2010 - 03:22
Mr_Raider
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TBastian wrote...
Well then.
Do you know that the forms retain their base attack speed regardless of weapons used prior to shifting?
Do you know that there is a single, two-handed weapon in the game with no strength requirement?
Please elaborate.
I thought the staff was the best weapon for auto-hit?
#19
Posté 05 mars 2010 - 03:56
TBastian
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Auto-hit, yes. As it turns out though using a staff is equivalent to using your bare hands in terms of damage, which is why your damage against Revenants was nerfed badly in your tests (the Revenant Aura lowers your strength).
Up until you get the stat bonuses from the Circle of Magi quest you're better off using Ser Jory's Balanced Greatsword (no strength requirement) while in Spider Form. You'll do more damage than warriors for a while. For Bear Form you might wanna stick to using staves until your attack becomes high enough that you don't need it anymore.
Pure Magic Shapeshifters greatly benefit from this because the combined strength and dexterity of their forms gives them a very high attack in the end. Strength types (except the one x-president built, which is basically pure strength) will have to rely on other means to lower enemy defense.
We were also wrong when we didn't consider other weapons. x-president was correct that the character screen will show no improvement when using other weapons while shapeshifted, because the character screen is wrong. A weapon's base damage and damage modifier are actually carried over when shapeshifting, you'll need to actually test your form's damage against monsters to find out. Spider Form in particular attacks as fast as dual-wielders, which means it can do very high damage when using a two-handed weapon. Bear Form catches up when you get Bereskarn, because Bereskarn's attacks are faster. Basically shapeshifting with a two-handedweapon turns your forms into a two-handed warrior equivalent sans the slow attack speed.
There is a post in the sorcerer's.net forums concerning how shapeshifters work that basically sums it all up. Its where I went after I extensively tested stuff and found out that we simply took too many factors for granted.
Up until you get the stat bonuses from the Circle of Magi quest you're better off using Ser Jory's Balanced Greatsword (no strength requirement) while in Spider Form. You'll do more damage than warriors for a while. For Bear Form you might wanna stick to using staves until your attack becomes high enough that you don't need it anymore.
Pure Magic Shapeshifters greatly benefit from this because the combined strength and dexterity of their forms gives them a very high attack in the end. Strength types (except the one x-president built, which is basically pure strength) will have to rely on other means to lower enemy defense.
We were also wrong when we didn't consider other weapons. x-president was correct that the character screen will show no improvement when using other weapons while shapeshifted, because the character screen is wrong. A weapon's base damage and damage modifier are actually carried over when shapeshifting, you'll need to actually test your form's damage against monsters to find out. Spider Form in particular attacks as fast as dual-wielders, which means it can do very high damage when using a two-handed weapon. Bear Form catches up when you get Bereskarn, because Bereskarn's attacks are faster. Basically shapeshifting with a two-handedweapon turns your forms into a two-handed warrior equivalent sans the slow attack speed.
There is a post in the sorcerer's.net forums concerning how shapeshifters work that basically sums it all up. Its where I went after I extensively tested stuff and found out that we simply took too many factors for granted.
Modifié par TBastian, 05 mars 2010 - 03:59 .
#20
Posté 05 mars 2010 - 01:28
DarkCamel
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I'll back up TBastian 100%. Shapeshifters are difficult to get the hang of, but once you learn to play them they are very powerful (and fun). Master Swarm for the win.
I found the the Deep Roads much easier (and faster) when playing as a Shifter than any other class or specialization combination.
FYI: Your party members run as fast as you fly in Swarm shape (extremely fast) when exploring - it is rather humorous to see Oghren in massive plate running faster than Olympic sprinters...
I found the the Deep Roads much easier (and faster) when playing as a Shifter than any other class or specialization combination.
FYI: Your party members run as fast as you fly in Swarm shape (extremely fast) when exploring - it is rather humorous to see Oghren in massive plate running faster than Olympic sprinters...
#21
Posté 05 mars 2010 - 09:54
Mr_Raider
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TBastian wrote...
There is a post in the sorcerer's.net forums concerning how shapeshifters work that basically sums it all up. Its where I went after I extensively tested stuff and found out that we simply took too many factors for granted.
Link?
#22
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 01:15
sajahVarel
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#23
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 12:28
Mr_Raider
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This makes the Chasind Great maul one of the best shifter weapons! High base damage, high AP, huge bonus to stamina and mana regen.
How does shifter treat dual wield? Or sword and board?
How does shifter treat dual wield? Or sword and board?
#24
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 05:18
sajahVarel
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I think the shield should be carried away with the shifting, but the 2nd weapon is not (cause the forms are not DW so they only use the main weapon, but the weapon's bonuses should count though).
#25
Posté 08 mars 2010 - 05:53
Speakeasy13
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Thank you for your responses. I'm glad to know that the shapeshifter can actually work and not just a gimmicky fun side option. I should probably also state for the record that I have yet to start playing the game and is currently planning ahead the builds for my entire team, so my questions may come as silly for all of you. I'll hold my judgment on any of the specs til I have the time to play them all myself, but for me the "fun"factor is more important than actually being the best.TBastian wrote...
You are not sacrificing any spellcasting by shapeshifting since if your mage dies he won't be able to cast spells either. You can also Shapeshift when you're out of mana, your spells are in cooldown or your spells are ineffective against the type of enemy you're fighting. Shifting back to human form is instant, so as soon as the danger has passed/your spells are ready you can just pause, shift back, and resume casting. Your mage can do all that in a second.
The mechanics of shapeshifting are simply ill-understood, and the mechanics posted in the wiki are only the most basic ones.
The Shapeshifter (except for specialized builds like x-president's) is basically a mage with melee options, while the Arcane Warrior basically becomes a warrior with casting options. Which is why mixing them together can be so complicated. Arcane Warrior does improve your forms significantly, but both specs hate each other almost as much as Spirit Healer/Blood Mage in practice. If you manage to find some middle ground between specs though, in terms of sustained(AW)/active(SS) spell balance, offensive(AW)/defensive(SS) weapon bonuses balance, and weapon choice balance then you could make them work.
That said, pls elaborate on why AW and SS don't agree with each other. As far as I can tell, AW allows the mage to wear better armors, and that bonus crosses over to forms; hence the points I saved from strength can instead go into spellpower, which also boosts the forms' power. The balance I have in mind is one that completely overlooks sustained spells and offense weapon bonuses, and only focuses on SS options. The general strategy is one of hitting-and-running: 1)Bomb your opponents with spells 2) shapeshift when out of mana and melee to regen and 3) shift back and bomb again. I know it may be considered a specialized build by your standards, but I'd like to hear your opinions anyway.
Modifié par Speakeasy13, 08 mars 2010 - 05:54 .
