34 réponses à ce sujet

[TBastian]

The AW basically thrives on sustaineds and offensive weapon bonuses, which is why its doesn't get along with the Shapeshifter. While the AW does help improve your forms, note that a Shapeshifter wouldn't want to stay shifted for longer than he has to anyway. You may be able to deal massive damage while shifted, but this is not worth neglecting your other responsibilities.

In practice, a Shapeshifter will be switching forms quite alot. Especially once you get Overwhelm or your spellpower hits 50+, the damage your forms can do can be addicting. As a result you can sometimes neglect your party and someone is likely to die when this happens. And this is from a pure Shapeshifter's point of view - an AW/SS will have much better forms, so you'll be tempted to stay shifted for longer. The only way to make the AW/SS get along is to try and balance them out, I think. Doing this would require a very specific build with specific equipment and spells.
This can be very complicated if you haven't played the game yet.

My suggestion is that you make your own PC an Arcane Warrior, and keep Morrigan as a Shapeshifter/SH or BM. As long as you play her right (switch to Jory's Sword/Maul when shifting, staff for casting, staff for heavily armored/high def opponents, etc., basically the stuff mentioned in the sorcerer's post) you should be able to compare her gameplay with your PC's and find a balance for yourself.

In my case my AW/SS ended up basically an AW who shifted every once in a while to spike damage, and also threw nukes every once in a while. I had to give up being a nuker... had  I only taken AW for the first skill (and to wear better amors) I might as well have taken Blood Mage/Spirit Healer instead since I would've gained more benefits.
Especially since the games has some very powerful high-level mage gear (Reaper's Vestments, Spellward, etc)

Modifié par TBastian, 08 mars 2010 - 06:49 .

[Axekix]

TBastian wrote...

And do you know that a Shapeshifter can do as much damage as a two-hander warrior? Yes they can.

What?  A very very poorly geared/specced/played 2h warrior, maybe.

[TBastian]

Sigh. You wish.
Granted, pure DPS two-hander-wise, of course not.

Modifié par TBastian, 08 mars 2010 - 06:51 .

[Axekix]

It's simple mechanics.

A SS can't match a 2h's attack rating, armor pen, damage per attack, crit % or attack speed with bloodthirst, and that's not even accounting for the warrior's specialization.

Modifié par Axekix, 08 mars 2010 - 06:59 .

[TBastian]

It can. It's simple mechanics.

Attack rating: the forms' Strength and Dexterity both increase as your spellpower increases, and on top of that mages have ways of increasing their attack rating.
Armor Penetration: You'll note that staves have very high armor penetration. A Shapeshifter who plans to fight something with very high armor can simply switch to a staff before shifting, and in doing so his attacks will also never miss. One thing the sorcerer's post is also wrong about is that Shapeshifters get a small bonus to armor penetration based on spellpower, which is very useful when you switch completely to two-handed weapons at higher levels.
Damage per attack: This is where a two-handed DPSer can win, because the forms' strength improves much more slowly than a pure strength two-hander's.
Crit Rate and Attack Speed: The forms retain their own attack speed regardless of the weapon the caster used before shifting. This attack speed is much faster than a two-hander's normal swing.
Finally, there's the Overwhelm exploit, which basically allows a Shapeshifter to keep canceling most of his attack's animation as long as the target is immune to Overwhelm.

So basically if the two-handed warrior is not a pure or semi-pure strength-DPSer, then a Shapeshifter can possibly outdamage him.

Discussing Power of Blood and other skills is pointless, since if we do this skill-wise my Shapeshifter would also be using his spells. I see no point in trying to compare something like Group Heal to Berserk.

Modifié par TBastian, 08 mars 2010 - 07:40 .

[Axekix]

Well it seems we agree that a damage focused 2h war (which really... they all should be) will outdamage an SS.  There are a few things however:

TBastian wrote...
Attack rating: the forms' Strength and Dexterity both increase as your spellpower increases, and on top of that mages have ways of increasing their attack rating.

I wasn't talking about raw stats.  Precise Striking grants +10 attack, Mighty Blow has a +10 attack bonus, Crit Strike has a +5 attack bonus.  And of course Perfect Striking = +100 attack.  So no, SS cannot match a warrior's attack rating.

Armor Penetration: You'll note that staves have very high armor penetration. A Shapeshifter who plans to fight something with very high armor can simply switch to a staff before shifting, and in doing so his attacks will also never miss. One thing the sorcerer's post is also wrong about is that Shapeshifters get a small bonus to armor penetration based on spellpower, which is very useful when you switch completely to two-handed weapons at higher levels.

Yes staves have high armor pen, but a 2h warrior has Sunder Armor (-20), Destroyer (-5) and a passive 25% armor ignore from 2h Strength, without even accounting the armor pen from their weapon.  So again, 2h wins out.

Crit Rate and Attack Speed: The forms retain their own attack speed regardless of the weapon the caster used before shifting. This attack speed is much faster than a two-hander's normal swing.

Normal swing, yes.  Bloodthirst closes this gap and stacks with all other haste skills.  Spider may be ahead slightly afterwards but if so not by much.

Discussing Power of Blood and other skills is pointless, since if we do this skill-wise my Shapeshifter would also be using his spells. I see no point in trying to compare something like Group Heal to Berserk.

What?  Bloodthirst and Berserk contribute to the 2h warrior's dps, why wouldn't you take them into account?  SS has no match for either of them in melee, which we were discussing, no?  Is the mage's blood power even available in SS form?

[TBastian]

Gah. We're not taking skills into account because a mage simply has other duties besides staying Bear Form and attacking. Like throwing throwing AoE's and Fireballs or Walking Bombs or keeping his party alive. And even if we did include all the stuff you mentioned we'd still be debating this for another week or so, especially since you'll need to crop your arguments to be more realistic. (Precise Striking? So you're lowering your attack speed. And what's with all the sustaineds? Can you even keep all those skills perpetually up? How long can you keep Blood Thirst up? Destroyer and Sunder Armor are debuffs, so they'll actually affect my Shapeshifter too. That's a lot of high level skills...at what character levels are we even talking about? So you want to consider skill damage? How about 2k damage for Death Hex + Death Cloud and Mana Clash, each? A pure-magic Shapeshifter is, after all, first and foremost still a mage. Shapeshifting is simply what he does when he runs out of stuff to throw.)

We could consider just arguing about purely shapeshifted forms vs a two-hander if you want, but since you already made your rules (only shapeshifted forms) then agree to mine: no warrior skills. It would be a nice, although not very realistic debate, and at least each side has a say on the "rules". Heh.

You already agreed that a Shapeshifter can outdamage a two-hander. Even agreed that a pure str/semi-pure strength one can be outdamage by one, at lower-mid levels.
I really see no point in debating this further.

Modifié par TBastian, 08 mars 2010 - 08:27 .

[Axekix]

TBastian wrote...

Gah. We're not taking skills into account because a mage simply has other duties besides staying Bear Form and attacking. Like throwing throwing AoE's and Fireballs or Walking Bombs or keeping his party alive.

Your statement was that a SS can match a 2her's damage.  If we're comparing damage then none of those other "duties" are relevant.  Warriors CC and tank along with doing damage, but that's not what we were talking about is it?

Precise Striking? So you're lowering your attack speed. And what's with all the sustaineds? Can you even keep all those skills perpetually up?

3 is a lot?  Precise Striking, Bloodthirst and Indomitable can be maintained permanently without issue by the time you have the Warden Commander's Set.  And Bloodthirst overpowers the haste penalty from Precise Striking.

Destroyer and Sunder Armor are debuffs, so they'll actually affect my Shapeshifter too. That's a lot of high level skills...at what character levels are we even talking about?

"Affect your shapeshifter?"  When did this become party vs party instead of single spec vs single spec?

At any rate I thought we were talking about mid-late game, though it really doesn't matter.  2h damage is high even at lower levels if you're stacking strength and skill weaving.  You can pick up Sunder Arms, Mighty Blow and Crit Strike all before level 10. 

So you want to consider skill damage? How about 2k damage for Death Hex + Death Cloud and Mana Clash, each? A pure-magic Shapeshifter is, after all, first and foremost still a mage. Shapeshifting is simply what he does when he runs out of stuff to throw.)

We could consider just arguing about purely shapeshifted forms vs a two-hander if you want, but since you already made your rules (only shapeshifted forms) then agree to mine: no warrior skills. It would be a nice, although not very realistic debate, and at least each side has a say on the "rules". Heh.

What?

That argument makes no sense.  If we're comparing melee dps to melee dps why would a 2her not be able to use their melee skills?  Mage spells like Death Cloud and Mana Clash aren't specific to Shapeshifters and can't even be used in animal form, so I don't see how that helps your position. 

If anything the fact that you'd have to rely on spells that aren't even compatible with shape shifting in order to compete in dps points to SS lacking as a spec.

You already agreed that a Shapeshifter can outdamage a two-hander.

You got that from what I wrote...how?

Modifié par Axekix, 08 mars 2010 - 01:29 .

[TBastian]

Your statement was that a SS can match a 2her's damage. If we're comparing damage then none of those other "duties" are relevant. Warriors CC and tank along with doing damage, but that's not what we were talking about is it?

You were the one who  took my statement out of context and you presumed too much. And you expect to suck me into an argument custom-fitted to your rules?
That statement was made in a general sense, which so far you have only considered when it somehow seemed convenient to you.

You got that from what I wrote...how?

Find it out yourself. Or test it, whatever. Since you started this with your assumptions this it's only fair you finished it with your own empirical evidence.

The Overwhelm exploit is basically skill-weaving. On a much grander scale.

Modifié par TBastian, 08 mars 2010 - 03:19 .

[sajahVarel]

Guys, you're doing this the wrong way, so you will never finish... you are comparing a class spec to a class school >.>, it's like trying to compare the reaver spec with the spirit school and saying the reaver suck...
Compare a spec with a spec, or a class with a class.

Most players say the shifter doesn't work cause they are assuming that with 4 skills you will be able to forget all your other spells and shift into a godlike cheated form.
No, doesn't work like that. the shapeshifter is a spellcaster. Period.
A form is only one of their spells. When the spell job is done (like webbing somone with a spider web) you shift back, staying in a form for an entire battle is a waste, it's like being on shield wall and striking with your sword without taunting or bashing.

For the 2H - shifter debate, don't compare the dps, compare the skills (cause a form is a spell), compare overwelm to mighty blow, or web to pummel strike, but don't go into meaningless reflexions like if a bear can outdamage a 2H, cause before shifting the mage will cast death hex and vwb, and kill the guy with rage, triggering the aoe, shift back and finish with a fireblast, a warrior can't use spells, he just swings or fire arrows, so it's off topic.

Modifié par sajahVarel, 08 mars 2010 - 03:48 .