39 réponses à ce sujet

[birdland 1115]

Here's my question. We know that if an ammo power is
ineffective against a certain defense then it is not applied. So is the ammo
damage applied before or after the regular damage? This is important for instances
where a single shot from a sniper rifle/shotgun can down someone's defenses.



So if it is applied before then it is advantageous to match the ammo type to
the defense type (barrier, armor, or shields). But if it's applied afterwards
if more advantageous to utilize shredder or armor piercing ammo as they add
damage against health.



Example: I have the shredder ammo applied and I shotgun a Collector Drone up
close. If the ammo damage is applied first then it is wasted the damage as it
is ineffective against barriers. If the ammo damage is applied after the weapon
damage then it would add to the health damage that the Drone takes.



I hop all that made sense. Does anyone know the answer?

Modifié par birdland 1115, 03 mars 2010 - 03:19 .

[Kurupt87]

ammo dmg applied first, dev confirmation.

[_Dannok1234]

Hm are you sure about that Kurupt87?

(Copyed from Eric ****nan from the game data post at the top)
"Ammo powers make a second damage call separate from the initial weapon damage call, and they use their own damage multipliers on resistances and health, as Christina mentions above.



Example:

If the initial regular weapon damage is 100 against a target with shields, then:

With Disruptor Ammo rank 1, you do an additional 20 damage to shields. If any of this damage passes through to health, it is negated (unless hitting a synthetic enemy) since this ammo power does nothing to health.

With Incendiary Ammo rank 1, you do no extra damage since this ammo type does nothing to shields."
--------

While this example is against shields, that doesn't seem to exclude the possibility that shredder ammo will come into play for any damage done that exceeds the damage taken to the shield/armor.

Edit: Funny, the forum censored his last name

Modifié par Dannok1234, 03 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[Kurupt87]

thats the post i meant, i just read it that the extra dmg, in this case the 20 vs shields, does get done first. meh, if it doesnt then its a major mechanics mess up imo.

[birdland 1115]

I'm confused. On person says that ammo damage is applied first, but Christina said that ammo powers make a second damage call (that implies that it happens after the weapon damage). I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it's applied after, but it's still a bit ambiguous.

[ScroguBlitzen]

Eric ****nan wrote...

Ammo powers make a second damage call separate from the initial weapon damage call, and they use their own damage multipliers on resistances and health, as Christina mentions above. 



Example:

If the initial regular weapon damage is 100 against a target with shields, then:

With Disruptor Ammo rank 1, you do an additional 20 damage to shields. If any of this damage passes through to health, it is negated (unless hitting a synthetic enemy) since this ammo power does nothing to health.

With Incendiary Ammo rank 1, you do no extra damage since this ammo type does nothing to shields..

They are applied AFTER normal damage from the bullet.

[birdland 1115]

So if they're applied after, then Shredder and AP Ammo are the most effective ammo type for Snipers and Vanguards that can take down enemy defenses with a single shot.



Am I correct?

[Eric Fagnan]

Ammo powers make their damage call before the regular weapon damage call.

[birdland 1115]

Eric ****nan wrote...

Ammo powers make their damage call before the regular weapon damage call.

Thanks.

[ScroguBlitzen]

 Thanks for clearing this up.  Your previous wording made it seem quite the opposite.
Previously the description said:
"Ammo powers make a second damage call separate from the initial weapon damage call"


Applying the ammo power first makes more sense, and makes Warp and Disruptor Ammo much more useful then they would otherwise be.

[DirewolfX]

Wow, that makes Shredder Ammo pretty awful.   Would be nice if that could be switched around just for Shredder Ammo.  I think Infiltrator is the only class that doesn't have something better to do to unprotected organics.

[Schneidend]

Also, if Incendiary/Inferno ammo is used against armor, barrier, or shielding, it deals the entirety of the damage-over-time instantly, rather than dividing it over three seconds.

[Ackillez]

Eric ****nan wrote...

Ammo powers make their damage call before the regular weapon damage call.

Your username is offensive! There's children viewing these boards!

[ScroguBlitzen]

Incendiary does not Apply any bonus damage to shields or barrier so the dot is irrelevant. The instant application does apply to armor though.

[Schneidend]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Incendiary does not Apply any bonus damage to shields or barrier so the dot is irrelevant. The instant application does apply to armor though.

It only sets health on fire, but I'm pretty sure it still deals the fire damage to the shields and barriers, as the game says nothing about the damage only affecting health amd armor.

[Kurupt87]

in one dev post it is stated that unless the ammo is described as effective against something, then it does no extra dmg. and i thought that this is how it'd work.

[Murmillos]

Schneidend wrote...

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Incendiary does not Apply any bonus damage to shields or barrier so the dot is irrelevant. The instant application does apply to armor though.

It only sets health on fire, but I'm pretty sure it still deals the fire damage to the shields and barriers, as the game says nothing about the damage only affecting health amd armor.

Incendiary Ammo does do NOT do any bonus damage to shields are barrier.  Its 100% ineffective.  Once it gets to armor, it deals instant bonus damage, once it gets to health, it does DOT damage.

Modifié par Murmillos, 03 mars 2010 - 08:04 .

[WillieStyle]

An only slightly related question:

Proximity damage bonuses - additive or multiplicative?

[D Amiri]

I don't think the Dev answered the OP. It's still confusing. If the ammo damage is called first but is negated by defense then Incendiary, Shredder, Warp, and AP ammos do no extra damage to health if you punched through shields first. That doesn't seem correct. Because Incendiary ammo sets mercs on fire if you punch through shields. Are they saying the "on fire" animation is not doing damage. Vangards have tested ammo powers in the Vanguard threads and have shown AP > Incendiary > no ammo when punching through shields. Though the difference is same and not worth the 10 squads needed for AP.



The non damage ammo powers punch through shields (freezing, burning, overheating). But we aren't getting damage to punch through? If damage does punch through then Shredder would be the best ammo for high damage weapons but no one believes that. So to the dev's do health damaging ammos do extra damage if you punch through shields to health with high damage single shoot weapons? Do you get no damage, full damage, partial damage, or only the DOT burning damage?

[Kurupt87]

i think dmg works like this,



X - base dmg



P - protection bonus dmg



A - ammo bonus vs protection



B - ammo bonus vs health



H - headshot modifier





X+(X*P)+(X*A)+(X*H) vs protection, notice they are seperate. firstly the bonus dmg specific to the protection is used, that being the ammo bonus(if any) and the weapon bonus (eg smg 1.5*shields). the "set" of base dmg isnt touched until the other three "sets" have been depleted.



(X-[amount of X used against protection])=Y



Y+(Y*+(Y*H) vs health, again the seperate values, although its not as important now.



this is roughly how it works. so, say a sniper shoots a shielded someone in the head, base dmg of 400. he would get, against protection, 400+240+400 (60% disruptor and headshot, no wep multiplier). so he does 640 dmg before even touching his base, which then goes onto health. say he used 100 of the base to get through the protection, he has 300 left. now he does that dmg to health. i doubt he gets another headshot bonus and its vs an organic and no wep has a multiplier vs health. i'm pretty sure this is how it works, could be barking up completely the wrong tree but there you go. this backs up the argument that health is harder to get rid of than protection for weapons, because health has no multipliers bar headshots and ammo powers.

ps: all made up numbers.

shredder works like this, again on a sniper for simplicity: 400 dmg base, say 300 shields on the schmuck. so, after protection 100 is left, plus 80 (max shredder[80% of the dmg vs health]), for a total of 180 vs health.

[vadrillan]

I think it's been made clear. The ammo is used first.
Eg: with shredder (at 50% bonus for example) and base 100 weapon dmg (no bonuses to shields), against a target with 50 shields, 200 health.

1: Ammo check: is target health? No- it's shields so no bonus dmg from shredder.
2: Weapon check- 100 dmg vs. 50 shields, leaving 50 dmg to go through to health
Target ends up with 150 health left.

But your next shot will do 50 dmg from shredder, 100 from weapon, killing target.

Modifié par vadrillan, 03 mars 2010 - 11:54 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

Shredder Ammo is pretty much completely useless then.



UNLESS you are playing on Normal where enemies have only health in which case it is semi useful.



Honestly though... why did they bother even putting it in the game?

[Gravbh]

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Shredder Ammo is pretty much completely useless then.

UNLESS you are playing on Normal where enemies have only health in which case it is semi useful.

Honestly though... why did they bother even putting it in the game?

You answered your own question. The abilities in the game were designed around normal dificulty.

[Atmosfear3]

Gravbh wrote...

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

Shredder Ammo is pretty much completely useless then.

UNLESS you are playing on Normal where enemies have only health in which case it is semi useful.

Honestly though... why did they bother even putting it in the game?

You answered your own question. The abilities in the game were designed around normal dificulty.

Hopefully they will design with at least hardcore in mind next installment <_<.  ME2 was way too easy on normal first time through.

[Murmillos]

Could ammo bonus make multiple calls?

Example:
1) Check to see if bonus ammo damage works against current protection/life
  a) Yes - Apply bonus damage, Go to 2
  No - Ignore bonus damage, Go to 3
2) Apply bonus ammo damage to current protection until gone - is all bonus ammo damage used up?
  a) No - Go to 1
  Yes - Go to 3
3) Apply Weapon damage to current protection until used up - is there another protection/health?
  a) Yes & have bonus ammo damage left - Go to 4
  Yes, but have no bonus ammo damage left - Go to 5
  c) No - Go to 5
4) Check to see if bonus ammo damage works against current protection/life
  a) Yes - Apply bonus damage, Go to 5
  No - Ignore bonus damage, Go to 5
5) All weapon damage/bonus used up or unable to be applied/dead enemy. End of shot.

Modifié par Murmillos, 04 mars 2010 - 02:29 .