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[kaff33nd]

I like to dig deep into things of a metaphysical nature, so I apologise in advance if that is the direction this thread takes. These are my own personal thoughts/feelings, and in no way represent hard facts. With this in mind, please read through and post your (sincere) thoughts.

I'm very interested in symbolism and mythology, so I guess it's not surprising that I should be so interested in the Illusive Man's eyes, and indeed his mystique.  At first I took his eyes to be merely a cool-looking cybernetic implant, but later began to look harder at them (no pun intended).  We all know what they look like: two circles, one within the other, with three spots at equidistant points on the outer circle.  I wanted to see if there was any symbolic reference to this and here's what I came up with.  Pluto.  That's the planet, and in a roundabout way, the god.  You see, Pluto has 3 moons (that we know of) orbiting it; Charon, Hydra and Nix.  Without staying on the astronomical characteristics of Pluto, let me get straight to what I have in mind.  Pluto was the Roman version of the Greek god Hades, the god of the Underworld.  Now Hades had a dog who guarded the Underworld by the name of Cerberus.  Cerberus' task was to ensure that nobody living could enter Hades (the Underworld) and no soul could ever leave.  There are three realms to the Underworld (Hades being only one), just as Pluto has three moons. These realms were Elysium, the Asphodel Meadows and Tartarus.  Anyway, I digress...

The Illusive Man (Illusive meaning, roughly, inconceivable, incomprehensible, veiled or shadowy) is pretty much an unknown to us in the Mass Effect universe so far, and I think I may know why.  Hades/Pluto had an artifact of great power known generally as the Helm of Darkness, or the Cap of Invisibility.  With this 'cap' Hades was able to move freely without being seen.  I think the connotations are abvious here.  Basically I'm inferring that TIM is some kind of god of death, and that his grand plan is to keep humanity from transcending this existance. I know it's a bit of a leap, but somewhere between starting this thread and now, I got sick of typing. Sorry about that.

Anyway, go check some of this stuff out and post your thoughts/findings.  If I'm anywhere near right I'll be spooked for a bloody long time!  The bigger question is: If TIM is some kind of god-like figure preventing us (humanity) from transcending this existance, then what are the Reapers? Is Cerberus that thing from which the Reapers are our "Salvation through destruction"?  That's where my head's at, anyway.

Modifié par kaff33nd, 03 mars 2010 - 02:29 .

[Crowb1ack]

Charon turned out to be a mass relay -not a moon. However...

Charon was the ferryman of Hades who carried the souls of the deceased to the other side. Sounds a lot like a mass relay.

But I don't personally think that Cerberus is the true threat. It remains to be seen in Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par Crowb1ack, 03 mars 2010 - 04:16 .

[Bravenu3]

Interesting :-)

I'd like to add that TIM also has some kind of symbol on his shirt/jacket: a badge with 3 metal dots. Jack / Subject Zero has the same marking on her earpiece...

[kaff33nd]

@Crowb1ack - that's interesting. I didn't know that Charon was the ferryman!



@Bravenu3 - are you sure the symbol is the same as Jack's earpiece? I'm going to have to check this out... Where on TIM's jacket is that symbol?

[kaff33nd]

okay, I took some screens and edited them to show this 3 dot symbol.





I would say that the 3 dots are the 3 heads of Cerberus as well as the 3 moons of Pluto.

[DirewolfX]

I'd say your observations are correct up until the leap of logic about TIM being some God that wants to prevent us from transcending into Reaper smoothie.



1. Pluto, Charon and its other moons were named after the mythological God of Death by real humans based on Roman mythology. Not by Drew Karpyshyn to make an awesome story for Mass Effect. =p



2. Cerberus was named Cerberus after the three headed puppy because it was meant to be a guardian of the Charon Mass Effect Relay to protect Earth, much like Cerberus guarded the entrance to the underworld, just past the River Styx, which Charon was the ferryman to. Therefore, it's unsurprising that Cerberus would continue to use symbology that references the Roman mythology.



So, good observations. Leap of logic unlikely. TIM is merely there to represent a leadership figure for the Renegade Shepard--someone for whom the ends justify the means, but the ends are still a noble goal (preserving the human species).



P.S. I know I referenced Roman mythology which is based on Greek mythology, but Mass Effect stuck to the Roman names, so I am referring to it at Roman mythology.

[kaff33nd]

I also used the Roman version. Also, I want to discuss why BioWare wrote the story in such a way as to indirectly associate TIM with Pluto. Why have the whole Cerberus analogy at all? There are many ideas and concepts in this game that reference Greco-Roman mythology and biblical themes. I think there's a reason for that.

Let's assume that the story is finished as far as BioWare are concerned. They know what we do not, and all my guessing might in the end seem obvious, but I like to try and guess where the story is going. I think that BW have a specific story to tell with TIM and Cerberus, and I think it's directly linked to the main plot and the Reapers. That's all.

[Bravenu3]

kaff33nd wrote...
I would say that the 3 dots are the 3 heads of Cerberus as well as the 3 moons of Pluto.

The question is: why does Jack have that symbol? Just because she grew up in a Cerberus facility? What is that earpiece anyway? Radio? Jewellery?

[javierabegazo]

Bravenu3 wrote...

kaff33nd wrote...
I would say that the 3 dots are the 3 heads of Cerberus as well as the 3 moons of Pluto.

The question is: why does Jack have that symbol? Just because she grew up in a Cerberus facility? What is that earpiece anyway? Radio? Jewellery?

That earpiece is her biotic amp. If you can flip back to the ME1 Manual, it talks about biotic amps being either implanted but also amplified by accesories worn on the ear or neck

[SouthernWolfman]

As far as the Hades idea goes... might not be too far off. Doubt it would be a "god" of death, but TIM definitely does wield some power over life and death. Cerberus has definitely killed on his behalf, and charging someone from Cerberus to bring someone back from the dead has a Hades flavor to it.

[kaff33nd]

Javierbegazo - you show up in the weirdest places!

[GhostDieM]

hmm never really thought about it that deep, but TIM does fascinate me. Still wondering if he's on 'our' side or if he's got some secret agenda... Already excited for ME3

[Nostradamoose]

Well, I'd be quite astonished if they went to the same depth as Bioshock for Philosophical reflections. This game is the greatest essay on Ayn Rand's philosophy I,ve ever seen. Every character name was an allusion, every area, every mission and even some unsuspecting decor elements were too, It was simply grand (I haven't played BS2 btw). For those reasons, I really hope you are right on this.

[Sigma Tauri]

kaff33nd wrote...
Basically I'm inferring that TIM is some kind of god of death, and that
his grand plan is to keep humanity from transcending this existance.

He's actually not keeping humanity or Shepard from transcending. In fact, he helped catalyze humanity's eventual ascension. If Shepard hadn't died, he probably would still be fighting just geth.

kaff33nd wrote...

I also used the Roman version. Also, I want to discuss why BioWare wrote the story in such a way as to indirectly associate TIM with Pluto. Why have the whole Cerberus analogy at all? There are many ideas and concepts in this game that reference Greco-Roman mythology and biblical themes. I think there's a reason for that.

Because Bioware wanted Mass Effect 2 to take place in the science fiction equivalent of the Mythic Underworld. Shepard's story is a model Campbellian pattern. His story arc in the series so far follows the pattern so precisely that you can have an idea what Mass Effect 3 is about. In terms of its narrative significance, Cerberus is also the dog that prevents the dead from returning to the world of the living. Why is it that Shepard is restricted to the Terminus Systems while Citadel space is more or less not available to you? Have you noticed how some places in the game are called Afterlife and Purgatory? In a sense, Shepard is still "dead," but his roaming in the Terminus Systems shows you that Bioware wanted to have a thematic unity with the whole underworld theme. Consequently, it provides perspective as to the places you visit and why loyalty missions exist.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 05 mars 2010 - 10:44 .

[GhostDieM]

Heh actually googled the Campbellian pattern and I must say I can relate it to the Mass Effect storyline (although it is a fairly general set-up Campbell proposes). Just goes to show you can actually learn something when playing videogames haha

[Nostradamoose]

Well, videogames are a work of art, whether or not people disagree with me doesn't change this fact.

It is creation, it is narration, it is a plot making effort and it has a script. It's litterary art displayed in an interractive way.

Therefore, you can get the most brainless or the well-thought game anytime you buy a game.



Anything's possible. Some History of art classes are even beginning to incorporate video game references. (not that it's really my cup of tea, but you know what I mean)

[Sigma Tauri]

GhostDieM wrote...

Heh actually googled the Campbellian pattern and I must say I can relate it to the Mass Effect storyline (although it is a fairly general set-up Campbell proposes). Just goes to show you can actually learn something when playing videogames haha

Of course. The pattern was generalized by comparing traditional mythologies. On the other hand, modern hero stories like Star Wars, Babylon 5, or even the Lion King model themselves however from the Monomyth, and so does many of Bioware's games. It's no coincidence why many of their games including Mass Effect follows such a common structure. (That's also one of the reasons why Bioware was criticized for perpetuating cliches, but that's another matter.)

Going back to the topic, I recommend looking up Leeming's version of the pattern. His model fits Mass Effect's story perfectly, and you'll see ME2 was portrayed with death and descent in mind, and why calling TIM Hades makes absolute sense.

Anyway, this isn't really a magnificent revelation on my part. Hopefully, you guys and gals can glean out meanings, symbols, and significance from the game from the whole Underworld perspective.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 06 mars 2010 - 12:06 .

[VirtualAlex]

This is a sweet thread.



Doesn't renegade shepard get similar looking eyes to TIM if he gets hardcore enough? Falling under the Curberus spell perhaps?

[O_Chibi]

It may sound stupid, but what if Subject Zero is related to TIM...like "his daughter" ?
I tought of that idea during her loyalty mission.
1. SuZe was a child and doesn't even mention her parents. Even if she doesn't know TIM, she may know the man behind the title.
2. What we know is that during the program, she was not the one having the most experience on. The other kids were lab rat, and only when a thing did work on, it was experienced upon Jack.
3...(other stuff in my head but too late, i'll edit it later on if I can still remember xD)




EDIT:  off topic.
If about it. Nice thing, now we have to know where is Than(e)atos xD. That is a Joke *Sounds like EDI*.

I need to sleep... 

Modifié par O_Chibi, 06 mars 2010 - 01:42 .

[Orogun01]

O_Chibi wrote...

It may sound stupid, but what if Subject Zero is related to TIM...like "his daughter" ?
I tought of that idea during her loyalty mission.
1. SuZe was a child and doesn't even mention her parents. Even if she doesn't know TIM, she may know the man behind the title.
2. What we know is that during the program, she was not the one having the most experience on. The other kids were lab rat, and only when a thing did work on, it was experienced upon Jack.
3...(other stuff in my head but too late, i'll edit it later on if I can still remember xD)



EDIT:  off topic.
If about it. Nice thing, now we have to know where is Than(e)atos xD. That is a Joke *Sounds like EDI*.

I need to sleep... 

Would be unlikely and it would never be confirmed. We are talking about the Illusive Man, anything that takes away from the mystique or gives humanity is left out. His image; while human, has been severely altered to the point that anything human has been quelled and all that is left looks like a "prototype" of what a human should look like. Which goes greatly with the Cerberus ideals of ascending humanity to a Nietzchean "metahuman".

[kaff33nd]

This thread seems to have been given another breath of life! Thanks mostly to MonkeyCameron for the insight into the Campbellian Pattern thing. I'm still reading on this, and I'm having trouble finding anything regarding Leeming's use of the pattern. Keep it up guys, I'd like to see this thread expanded on if possible. There aren't enough topics here that touch on the deeper issues.

[NICKjnp]

Thane has you covered... he meditates all the time.

[Sigma Tauri]

kaff33nd wrote...

This thread seems to have been given another breath of life! Thanks mostly to MonkeyCameron for the insight into the Campbellian Pattern thing. I'm still reading on this, and I'm having trouble finding anything regarding Leeming's use of the pattern. Keep it up guys, I'd like to see this thread expanded on if possible. There aren't enough topics here that touch on the deeper issues.

It's this.

www.units.muohio.edu/technologyandhumanities/leeming.htm

I'm glad you brought this topic up. I signed on these forums just say something similar, but I wussed out. Cool that you made these observations independently too.

I mean it doesn't make the plot anymore connected, but I appreciate what Bioware was trying to accomplish in the game.

[kaff33nd]

Thanks for that link, monkeycamoran. The whole 'apotheosis' thing makes me wonder what is to come in the final game. I wonder if Shepard will destroy the "Reaper threat" by somehow merging with 'them' and dominating their thought processes? That would be interesting indeed. Shepard becomes god-like, sacrifices him/herself and ends the threat all in one move. That would be the kind of epic finale BioWare typically create. I'm still very curious as to the relationship (if any) between the Reapers and TIM. It could be that TIM/Cerberus are ancient enemies (using human form in present day) and Shepard is TIM's hero/champion. At the end of the game Shep could turn his back on TIM (the father figure) and settle the conflict through apotheosis. The scope and potential for calculated guesswork in this universe is amazing!

[MajorStranger]

OP's "meditations" is