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The one line he gives to Shepard that always gets me is when replying to him after the Collector ship I believe. He says"You and all other humans may as well be dead" or some such - he does not include himself in that statement, so ever since then I have been questioning his humanity - is he a geth or some other unknown alien species? ME3 will tell
Slihthinden
Meditations On Cerberus & The Illusive Man
Débuté par
kaff33nd
, mars 03 2010 02:27
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#27
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 06:40
kaff33nd
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MajorStranger wrote...
OP's "meditations" is far-fetched
I'm sorry, did I say anywhere that this thread was all about facts? Obviously it's far-fetched, as is the very game we are discussing. I suspect you were just looking for a place to link that crappy picture. Seriously, if you don't have anything to add to this discussion, why would you even bother posting anything?
#28
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 06:52
MajorStranger
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because I wanted to put that picture! that's why. Stop overthinking things that aren't there.
Cerberus was the Hades (now called Hell) guardian. I t was probably called that way because Cerberus goal is to protect humanity.
Cerberus is most of the time seen as three headed dog (but sometime with 50 to a 100 head) but in current philosophy each head has a different manner. The Smart, the Temperance and Rage. Considering this I think Cerberus might not have only one "Illusive man" but three each one with different point of view. The one in ME2 is obliously the Smart one, so it would mean we might see a more diplomatic Illusive man and a war-crazed one in ME3
Cerberus was the Hades (now called Hell) guardian. I t was probably called that way because Cerberus goal is to protect humanity.
Cerberus is most of the time seen as three headed dog (but sometime with 50 to a 100 head) but in current philosophy each head has a different manner. The Smart, the Temperance and Rage. Considering this I think Cerberus might not have only one "Illusive man" but three each one with different point of view. The one in ME2 is obliously the Smart one, so it would mean we might see a more diplomatic Illusive man and a war-crazed one in ME3
#29
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 07:12
kaff33nd
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Well, I like the idea that there may be more than 1 Illusive Man. Kinda like the Phantom I guess. Everyone thought it was the same Phantom, living hundreds of years.... Maybe TIM is a bunch of cybernetically enhanced clones? He/they could be 'poster boys' for Cerberus, while the real head of Cerberus is Miranda's father. haha...
I really like the mystique which surrounds TIM/Cerberus, like he really is Hades and is weraing the Helm of Darkness. He's such an illusory/elusive man.
I really like the mystique which surrounds TIM/Cerberus, like he really is Hades and is weraing the Helm of Darkness. He's such an illusory/elusive man.
#30
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 07:19
Sigma Tauri
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kaff33nd wrote...
I really like the mystique which surrounds TIM/Cerberus, like he really is Hades and is weraing the Helm of Darkness. He's such an illusory/elusive man.
He is. Hades means "hidden one" and he has unlimited hidden wealth, just like the god.
Also, he's not Shepard's father-figure. That's Anderson, since he considers Shepard his mentor. Just like Gorion is to the Child of Bhaal in Baldur's Gate or Duncan to the Warden.
Modifié par monkeycamoran, 06 mars 2010 - 07:27 .
#31
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 07:26
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Do you think there could be any correlation between TIM and Prometheus? Perhaps the Reapers are the Titans (old gods) and TIM/Cerberus/Prometheus stole technology (fire) from them? Prometheus (note the similarity in name with the Protheans) was the father of humanity, and humanity's champion, after all.
#32
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 07:51
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Prothean is probably not even their real name. It is the name given by the current galactic civilisation.
Pro (before) - Thean (Time?)
So this species would come before the current time
Pro (before) - Thean (Time?)
So this species would come before the current time
#34
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 08:17
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he used it because he was speaking english, not his original language. He downloaded the translator shepard has on his armor to be able to speak to him
#35
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 08:27
kaff33nd
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Actually, the Protheans were named by BioWare. My point was that BioWare had some reason for using that word. I was merely wondering if there was any inent from BioWare to link Prothean with Promethean in the gamers' heads. I mean, when I hear 'Prothean' I always think 'Promethean'.
Modifié par kaff33nd, 06 mars 2010 - 08:28 .
#37
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 08:45
Serillen
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I could see some link between Prometheus and the Protheans. Prometheus was sort of a protective figure to humans, and was punished for his actions by the other gods. The Protheans are also a protective figure, they altered the keepers in the citadel to protect the future races from the reapers and were also punished by being eradicated and warped into the collectors. So theres some parallel beyond the similarities of the names, whether Bioware intended it or not is another story.
#38
Posté 06 mars 2010 - 10:41
BurstAngel75
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This is a very intriging thought! I like it. I think the symbology surrounding Tim and Cerberus has more to do with foreshadowing in the next game. Prometheus and the Protheans was an obvious connection, after all the whole traverse benefited from the remains of their technology, just like man has benefited from mastering fire. And both have been punished/destroyed.
#39
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 01:23
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Both good points. Now, If TIM is a Hades figure, and in a roundabout way the Protheans represent Prometheus, who the hell is Shepard? I'm thinking Heracles (who saved Prometheus and captured Cerberus.
#41
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 03:26
Orogun01
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Shepard seems to be less from Greek mythology and more from Judaic-Christian. His name is awful close to Shepherd, he comes back from the dead and his mission is to save all life. If that doesn't scream Messianic figure I don't know what does.kaff33nd wrote...
Both good points. Now, If TIM is a Hades figure, and in a roundabout way the Protheans represent Prometheus, who the hell is Shepard? I'm thinking Heracles (who saved Prometheus and captured Cerberus.
#42
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 04:44
kaff33nd
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Read up on Heracles and you might just change your mind. Heracles and Shepard have a lot in common. Besides, Jesus was more of a teacher, Heracles was first and foremost a warrior. He also went into Hell (Hades) at one time. He's also a demi-god... as I suspect our Shep is/will become.
#43
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 04:55
kaff33nd
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On a side note, the coming of the Reapers and Shepard's mission to stop them, reminds me somewhat of Peter F. Hamilton's trilogy The Night's Dawn and the protagonist Joshua 'LaGrange' Calvert. In the final book The Sleeping God Joshua uses the "god's" power to end a conflict that would never be successful any other way. He basically travels through a wormhole (through time and space) to prevent the enemy from ever getting a foothold in the galaxy. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Shepard does something similar. I do hope, however, that time-travel isn't introduced.
#44
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 06:32
Orogun01
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I know Heracles, I just don't see any similarity. There is no twelve tasks nor metaphor for conquering nature. Shepard hasn't done as much as Heracles to be an accurate comparison.kaff33nd wrote...
Read up on Heracles and you might just change your mind. Heracles and Shepard have a lot in common. Besides, Jesus was more of a teacher, Heracles was first and foremost a warrior. He also went into Hell (Hades) at one time. He's also a demi-god... as I suspect our Shep is/will become.
#45
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 07:51
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Orogun01 wrote...
I know Heracles, I just don't see any similarity. There is no twelve tasks nor metaphor for conquering nature. Shepard hasn't done as much as Heracles to be an accurate comparison.kaff33nd wrote...
Read up on Heracles and you might just change your mind. Heracles and Shepard have a lot in common. Besides, Jesus was more of a teacher, Heracles was first and foremost a warrior. He also went into Hell (Hades) at one time. He's also a demi-god... as I suspect our Shep is/will become.
There's a reason I pointed out the Hero's Journey. It seems both of you are missing out for comparisons, but you should realize Shep is modeled after the Monomyth, the generalized pattern that came from comparing Heracles and Jesus. But, Shep isn't modeled after either, but rather he's all traditional cultural heroes combined. And references don't matter anymore than an academic Easter Egg without the narrative significance in the game.
Besides, Jesus is a Greek-influenced Jewish figure. Idealized man-gods are not an indigenous Jewish idea.
Modifié par monkeycamoran, 07 mars 2010 - 07:52 .
#46
Posté 07 mars 2010 - 09:29
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Right, because every culture copied their idols from Gilgamesh.monkeycamoran wrote...
Orogun01 wrote...
I know Heracles, I just don't see any similarity. There is no twelve tasks nor metaphor for conquering nature. Shepard hasn't done as much as Heracles to be an accurate comparison.kaff33nd wrote...
Read up on Heracles and you might just change your mind. Heracles and Shepard have a lot in common. Besides, Jesus was more of a teacher, Heracles was first and foremost a warrior. He also went into Hell (Hades) at one time. He's also a demi-god... as I suspect our Shep is/will become.
There's a reason I pointed out the Hero's Journey. It seems both of you are missing out for comparisons, but you should realize Shep is modeled after the Monomyth, the generalized pattern that came from comparing Heracles and Jesus. But, Shep isn't modeled after either, but rather he's all traditional cultural heroes combined. And references don't matter anymore than an academic Easter Egg without the narrative significance in the game.
Besides, Jesus is a Greek-influenced Jewish figure. Idealized man-gods are not an indigenous Jewish idea.
My point is that Shepard is more of a savior than a hero, specially since he lacks the progression of the Hero's Journey. When the first game starts he is already a known quantity and throughout all the challenges he remains the same (at the player's discretion, of course).
#47
Posté 08 mars 2010 - 02:23
kaff33nd
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monkeycamoran wrote...
There's a reason I pointed out the Hero's Journey. It seems both of you are missing out for comparisons, but you should realize Shep is modeled after the Monomyth, the generalized pattern that came from comparing Heracles and Jesus. But, Shep isn't modeled after either, but rather he's all traditional cultural heroes combined. And references don't matter anymore than an academic Easter Egg without the narrative significance in the game.
I understand what you're saying, that the steryoptype 'hero' as figured by the monomyth is more of a stylized hero that everyone can relate to. I think that's what you're saying, anyway. My thought, however, is that the devs want to portray Shepard in a classical light. Although they may use the monomyth as a means of conceptualising the protagonist, I think they may have fleshed him/her out in a classical Greek/Roman way. I used Heracles as an example because, unlike Jesus (or other messianic figures) he was mortal and fallible from the beginning, and only given demi-god status after his death. Jesus by contrast was born the son of God, and although he died, it was arguably only his body that died (and was ressurrected) and not his spirit.
This is all really a moot point, though, as it merely helps to gain an (albeit unclear) understanding of the relationship Shepard has with the other major characters of the Mass Effect universe. Namely, TIM and the Reapers. Whether or not Shepard is meant to be associated with Jesus or Heracles doesn't make much difference. In fact I'm happy to go with the concept that he's merely the "sum of all heroes" monomyth idea. So why is he here? What is his role in this saga? Where will he be going in ME3? These are the questions I'm concerned with. Also, who is TIM? Is he one man or a group? For that matter, who is Miranda? I'm tarting to think she may actually be the Temptress, but I'm also of a mind that the Temptress may be a thing rather than an actual person.
I'd still like to discuss TIM as Hades/Prometheus/Some Dude. Maybe he is just a renegade faction choice for the player. Maybe he's more... Maybe he's evil or good, but he does seem to be a huge part of the story, and one we'll see more of in the final installment.
#48
Posté 08 mars 2010 - 04:32
Orogun01
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Happy to indulge.kaff33nd wrote...
I'd still like to discuss TIM as Hades/Prometheus/Some Dude. Maybe he is just a renegade faction choice for the player. Maybe he's more... Maybe he's evil or good, but he does seem to be a huge part of the story, and one we'll see more of in the final installment.
I think that is because Cerberus in mythology it is the guardian of the underworld, and in the game it is the underworld guardian of humanity. Hades as Cerberus' master = TIM
#49
Posté 08 mars 2010 - 05:39
kaff33nd
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"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.
There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.
Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation. An accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal; the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us you are nothing. Extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. The cycle cannot be broken. The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilisations rise, evolve, advance. And at the apex of their glory, they are extinguished.
The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the Mass Relays. They merely found them. The legacy of my kind. (Every?) civilisation is based upon the technology of the Mass Relays. Our technology. By using it your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.
We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilisation has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure. We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom.
My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independant. Free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existance. Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over." - Sovereign in Mass Effect
I am really interested in the part where Sovereign says "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it". I keep thinking in terms of Heaven, the World and the Underworld. What if (bear with me here please, I'm about to go all esoteric!) there really IS a heaven and a hell, populated with beings that "transcends our very understanding"? For all we know, there could be a War of the Gods going on that we are now being pulled into. I'd say that TIM is some kind of renegade "god" who wants humanity to escape the plight of every other civilisation. The other gods disagree and there's a civil war as a result. But hey, as much as I like this idea there doesn't seem to be much in-game evidence to support it. What do you guys think?
And please, don't just reply with "it's still far-fetched".
There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.
Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation. An accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal; the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us you are nothing. Extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. The cycle cannot be broken. The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilisations rise, evolve, advance. And at the apex of their glory, they are extinguished.
The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the Mass Relays. They merely found them. The legacy of my kind. (Every?) civilisation is based upon the technology of the Mass Relays. Our technology. By using it your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.
We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilisation has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure. We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom.
My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation. Independant. Free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existance. Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over." - Sovereign in Mass Effect
I am really interested in the part where Sovereign says "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it". I keep thinking in terms of Heaven, the World and the Underworld. What if (bear with me here please, I'm about to go all esoteric!) there really IS a heaven and a hell, populated with beings that "transcends our very understanding"? For all we know, there could be a War of the Gods going on that we are now being pulled into. I'd say that TIM is some kind of renegade "god" who wants humanity to escape the plight of every other civilisation. The other gods disagree and there's a civil war as a result. But hey, as much as I like this idea there doesn't seem to be much in-game evidence to support it. What do you guys think?
And please, don't just reply with "it's still far-fetched".
