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[Orogun01]

kaff33nd wrote...

I am really interested in the part where Sovereign says "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it".  I keep thinking in terms of Heaven, the World and the Underworld.  What if (bear with me here please, I'm about to go all esoteric!) there really IS a heaven and a hell, populated with beings that "transcends our very understanding"?  For all we know, there could be a War of the Gods going on that we are now being pulled into.  I'd say that TIM is some kind of renegade "god" who wants humanity to escape the plight of every other civilisation.  The other gods disagree and there's a civil war as a result.  But hey, as much as I like this idea there doesn't seem to be much in-game evidence to support it.  What do you guys think?
And please, don't just reply with "it's still far-fetched".

Okay, I think that a little far from the ME feel. It exchanges the sci-fi "machines threaten all life" to the more fantasy "war of gods". So from a metagame perspective I don't think that devs will go for it.
As for the idea itself; it may be interesting for another game but it doesn't feel like ME. Although the Reapers as gods may not be a bad analogy; or at least as the embodiment of a natural phenomena.

[Watcher01]

ME1 references both Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman ideologies so much it hard to see where they differ. ME2, opens with the death of the hero, and his ressurection under the title of Lazarus (biblical reference) only two places in Citadel space are accessable, the Citadel and the Home(Sol) system.  The rest are in the Traverse(River Styx and Elysium) and Terminus Systems(Tartarus).  Just my take take.

Shep like Heracles and possibly Jesus, was ressurected by a more powerful entity/force/person.

[Sigma Tauri]

Watcher01 wrote...

ME1 references both Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman ideologies so much it hard to see where they differ. ME2, opens with the death of the hero, and his ressurection under the title of Lazarus (biblical reference) only two places in Citadel space are accessable, the Citadel and the Home(Sol) system.  The rest are in the Traverse(River Styx and Elysium) and Terminus Systems(Tartarus).  Just my take take.

Shep like Heracles and possibly Jesus, was ressurected by a more powerful entity/force/person.

Krogan DMZ is within close proximity to the Citadel. But, Tuchanka's a dead world, related to the Underworld theme.

There are more obvious examples like Purgatory and clubs like Afterlife.

By the way, there is a connection Protheans and Prometheus. The first Prothean ruin found by humanity was in Promethei Planum on Mars.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 09 mars 2010 - 06:06 .

[Tankfriend]

Serillen wrote...
I could see some link between
Prometheus and the Protheans. Prometheus was sort of a protective
figure to humans, and was punished for his actions by the other gods.
The Protheans are also a protective figure, they altered the keepers in
the citadel to protect the future races from the reapers and were also
punished by being eradicated and warped into the collectors. So theres
some parallel beyond the similarities of the names, whether Bioware
intended it or not is another story.

BurstAngel75 wrote...
This is a very intriging thought! I
like it. I think the symbology surrounding Tim and Cerberus has more to
do with foreshadowing in the next game. Prometheus and the Protheans
was an obvious connection, after all the whole traverse benefited from
the remains of their technology, just like man has benefited from
mastering fire. And both have been punished/destroyed.

I can see the entire Prometheus-Prothean analogy and it seems to make perfect sense for me on the first look but it still hinges on a few points.

- Prometheus was punished after giving fire back to the Humans and it was his fault that it was taken away from them in the first place.
- The Protheans only altered the Keepers several hundred years after the Reaper invasion actually started. Technically speaking, they would have been punished before actually commiting their "crime".
- Prothean technology also only affected other organic species several hundred if not thousand years after the Protheans had actually been destroyed. Again, they would have been punished before they had actually done it.

One idea that might still make the entire analogy possible, though, would be the business of Prothean intervention in organic evolution. The Hanar claim that that intervention is true in their case, but naturally, they have been unable to provide any proof so far. Another aspect of the same idea is the Sha'ira trinket scene from ME1 but that also only provides the possibility.

MajorStranger wrote...
Cerberus
was the Hades (now called Hell) guardian. I t was probably called that
way because Cerberus goal is to protect humanity.

Cerberus is
most of the time seen as three headed dog (but sometime with 50 to a
100 head) but in current philosophy each head has a different manner.
The Smart, the Temperance and Rage. Considering this I think Cerberus
might not have only one "Illusive man" but three each one with
different point of view. The one in ME2 is obliously the Smart one, so
it would mean we might see a more diplomatic Illusive man and a
war-crazed one in ME3

There are a lot of thoughts and ideas around about the three heads of Cerberus. Some see them as symbols for past, present and future, for example.
Still, you mentioning "Smart", "Temperance" and "Rage" actually got me thinking...

*theory start*
I think it is in the very first dialogue between Shepard and Miranda on the Normandy SR-2 when talking to her in her office - Miranda wants to tell Shepard as much about Cerberus as possible to alleviate any concerns on Shepards side.

One of the dialogue choices goes something like this:
Shepard: "So what is Cerberus... are you military or political? Or both?"
Miranda: "Cerberus has many aspects. Military, political, scientific - they're all part of the same organization."

So... to clarify:
1. Head: Scientific  ->  "The Smarts"
2. Head: Political  ->  "The Temperance"
3. Head: Military  ->  "The Rage"

Add in the three-dot symbol associated with Cerberus that was shown a page or two ago and that each aspect perfectly matches the associated part of Cerberus and... well, let's just say it sounds awfully convenient and incidental to me.
*theory end*
Going by this theory,  the "three heads of Cerberus" would refer to the three distinct aspects of the organization (Miranda calls them "branches") that are involved in all the major institutional divisions of a species' society - in this case Humanity's. I think the overall image of "Cerberus" might easily refer to more than this one idea, though. The "watchdog" idea naturally presents itself as another likely aspect, of course.

Modifié par Tankfriend, 09 mars 2010 - 10:45 .

[kaff33nd]

Hmm... I like this theory, Tank. I like it a lot, particularly as this 3-as-1 thing perfectly resembles the holy 'trinity' as well. We've already established that there is a string Judeo-Christian undercurrent to the ME universe, this just further cememnts it for me.



Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness...” Gen. 1:26



I keep coming back to the idea that what we have always referred to as 'gods' are in fact some ancient form of life. That there may be many such beings, and that, just maybe, TIM is one of them. I propose that he was exiled for something (probably creating humans) and is now orchestrating his revenge.

Let's imagine TIM as Prometheus (who is actually Venus and Lucifer) who took from his brethren something which would propel humanity's evolution. Like the fire of the legend. Or, in our case, some form of technology. What TIM needs is the same thing Prometheus needed in order to excape his punishment:

Then, a white cow passed that way, a strangely beautiful cow, with large sad eyes and a face that seemed almost human. She stopped and looked up at the cold gray peak and the giant body which was chained there. Prometheus saw her and spoke to her kindly:



“I know who you are,” he said. “You are Io who was once a fair and happy maiden in distant Argos; and now, because of the tyrant Jupiter and his jealous queen, you are doomed to wander from land to land in that unhuman form. But do not lose hope. Go on to the southward and then to the west; and after many days you shall come to the great river Nile. There you shall again become a maiden, but fairer and more beautiful than before; and you shall become the wife of the king of that land, and shall give birth to a son, from whom shall spring the hero who will break my chains and set me free. As for me, I bide in patience the day which not even Jupiter can hasten or delay. Farewell!”



And so, generations later, Heracles appeared before Prometheus to free him. Or Shepard, as the case may be.

I'm rambling now... need coffee. Okay, I kinda lost track of where I was going with this, but when I get it together I'll post again.

[Sigma Tauri]

Shandepared wrote...

This is all fascinating but I do think that some of you are taking the symbolism too far.

Within the context of the game Cerberus got its name symbolically because of Pluto and Charon.

Agreed.

However, he's not too far off from linking TIM with Hades. Just as much as it's too far off that there's a descent to the Underworld theme in ME2. I mean I recently learned the debris field beyond the Omega 4 relay is called the Tartarus Debris Fields.

In game, Cerberus was created as a guardian to humanity to keep its enemies from using the Charon relay. But, why choose their organization with that name?

[Tankfriend]

Just had a look at the Codex entries and it looks like the "watchdog"-aspect of Cerberus was the dominant reason to name the organization Cerberus as well...

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Cerberus
Trivia
* The name "Cerberus" comes from Greek mythology, where Cerberus is the three-headed dog that guards the gates of Hades. In universe, the organization's name comes from an anonymous manifesto made after the First Contact War detailing the need for humanity to have a "Cerberus" to guard it from the aliens beyond the Charon relay (Charon being also the name of the ferryman in Greek mythology in charge of ferrying souls to Hades).

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Organizations
Cerberus

Immediately following the First Contact War, an anonymous extranet manifesto warned that an alien attempt at human genocide was inevitable. The manifesto called for an army - a Cerberus to guard against invasion through the Charon relay.

Derided as "survivalist rhetoric written by an illusive man", the manifesto and its anonymous author soon fell off the media radar. But in 2165, terrorists stole antimatter from the SSV Geneva, the sole figure arrested named his sponsor "Cerberus". Throughout the 2160s and 2170s, alleged Cerberus agents assassinated politicians, sabotaged starships bearing eezo, and conducted nightmarish experiments on aliens and humans. Denounced as human-supremacist, Cerberus calls itself human-survivalist.

Counterterror experts speculate Cerberus may have changed leadership with it recent shift to stockpiling ships, agents, and weapons. Whether "he", "she", or "they", the Illusive Man hides his finances behind shell companies. Few doubt he will kill anyone attempting to expose him.

That doesn't mean that we have to stop speculating, though.

Modifié par Tankfriend, 10 mars 2010 - 06:55 .

[Sigma Tauri]

The meaning behind using Cerberus however is it's your connection to Cerberus that guards you from going back to your normal life. Cerberus just doesn't guard the underworld, but prevents the dead from returning to the world of the living.

[Mallissin]

Mass Effect mythos (and indeed many other trilogies) are based off Dante's Divine Comedy. Dante used three very often in the work, the trip through hell taking three days and the story broken up into three parts. Then there is the fact his companion was Virgil who is constantly explaining characters and such, much like Vigil explained the story of the Protheans.

Every major character is based on a Dante character. From Sovereign to Aria.

The three dot triangle could mean many things. It could be a mathematical/logic symbol that means "Therefore", or a cultural symbol like "Mi Vida Loca" tattoos (keep in mind, Bioware is in Texas).

Another thread discussing same elements.

http://social.biowar...08966/3#1547516

Modifié par Mallissin, 10 mars 2010 - 06:33 .

[heretica]

For some reason I think that TIM has a very close relationship with The Reapers to the extent that he might be one of them. That would explain why he wants Reaper technology, to have some kind of supremacy over them. However, this idea seems a bit stupid too, since Reapers are machines and therefore they shouldn't have feelings? And ambition is a very human thing.  

When I first met him, i realized the eyes as well I don't think Bioware did thatjust so he looks cooler Might have some special meaning (as in: he's an hybrid, half machine half human). 
But if he was a machine.. why would he bewthe front face for a human extremist group like Cerberus? So my guess is that he is human and the eyes are only implants (like Shepard's)

If he is human, for how long has he been around? Does he have some sort of background with the Alliance? How come he is so rich and powerful and at the same time so subtle and hard to track? Where does he live? (At the begining of the game, we see Miranda in that room with him.. so i guess it's a physical real place within Cerberus station. Unless she goes "Beam me up, Scotty!)
 
I ike a lot how you guys see things and are able to extract mythological connotations from this game.


                                                 

[VirtualAlex]

Mallissin wrote...

Mass Effect mythos (and indeed many other trilogies) are based off Dante's Divine Comedy. Dante used three very often in the work, the trip through hell taking three days and the story broken up into three parts. Then there is the fact his companion was Virgil who is constantly explaining characters and such, much like Vigil explained the story of the Protheans.

Vigil might simply be named for his job title. What he did is pretty much the textbook definition of "Vigil"

noun°
a watch kept during normal sleeping hours, especially over the body of a recently deceased or dying person.
a period of observation or surveillance.

I am curious what other Divide comedy refernces you see in the ME2 story. Three days and three parts is pretty weak in my opinion. It's just a nice round number, it's used all over the place. Three little pigs, three strikes and your out, it's ALL over.

Modifié par VirtualAlex, 10 mars 2010 - 08:41 .

[Siggs1]

Cool discussion, didn't know about the Cerberus/Pluto/Hades connection. I've always been curious about the sun behind TIM, when the collectors were around the star was a mixture of reds and blues, at the end it was all one color. Any speculation on the significance of that?

[Sigma Tauri]

Siggs1 wrote...

Cool discussion, didn't know about the Cerberus/Pluto/Hades connection. I've always been curious about the sun behind TIM, when the collectors were around the star was a mixture of reds and blues, at the end it was all one color. Any speculation on the significance of that?

Nothing outside red means renegade, blue means paragon.

[kaff33nd]

Yeah... What is it with the whole 'red vs blue' thing? Is red the international symbol for evil? Is blue generally accepted to mean peace or democracy? I'd love to see a game set in Earth's future where there are only two factions left - two great Corporate Nations trying to dominate the globe. The Red communists and the Blue democrats. Haha

[Sigma Tauri]

kaff33nd wrote...

Yeah... What is it with the whole 'red vs blue' thing? Is red the international symbol for evil? Is blue generally accepted to mean peace or democracy? I'd love to see a game set in Earth's future where there are only two factions left - two great Corporate Nations trying to dominate the globe. The Red communists and the Blue democrats. Haha

Well, blue means light-side and red means dark-side. Heh.

[mybudgee]

All i have to say is what an incredible GAME this is to spark these type of disscussions. Cheers bioware!!

[kaff33nd]

Yes I agree, mybudgee... IMO the mark of a great game is the amount of discussion it provokes. The other mark is how many nigling little details one can point out.

[Mallissin]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Mass Effect mythos (and indeed many other trilogies) are based off Dante's Divine Comedy. Dante used three very often in the work, the trip through hell taking three days and the story broken up into three parts. Then there is the fact his companion was Virgil who is constantly explaining characters and such, much like Vigil explained the story of the Protheans.

I am curious what other Divide comedy refernces you see in the ME2 story. Three days and three parts is pretty weak in my opinion. It's just a nice round number, it's used all over the place. Three little pigs, three strikes and your out, it's ALL over.

Did you look at the link? The two Hades systems in each game hide clues that I listed out in another thread.

As far as "Vigil", keep in mind that the VI was damaged. The R could have been lost, hidden beneath the new meaning.

Also, the planet Ilos is named after the founder of Troy. Illium in the second game is another name for Troy. Names used by Virgil in the Aeneid.

[VirtualAlex]

No i never looked at the link, but I willl. I was afraid it would be a thread with 600 posts that I didn't have time to read. I'll go back up now.



I was playing last night and just noticed that this game has a system called Hades Nexus and also Tali's Flotilla is in a system named after Valhalla which is of course the afterlife in Norse mythos. There are tons of references to the afterlife! I like it.

[Sigma Tauri]

VirtualAlex wrote...
I was playing last night and just noticed that this game has a system called Hades Nexus and also Tali's Flotilla is in a system named after Valhalla which is of course the afterlife in Norse mythos. There are tons of references to the afterlife! I like it.

Valhallan Threshold. I'm not sure if cluster names have significance.

[Mallissin]

Mallissin wrote...
From here.

Corben158 wrote...

Animal on gamestop forums posted "guys, I think it's just an easter egg. in dante's diving comedy he goes to hell (ie hades, aka hades gamma). according to dante, Dis is the name of one of the nine areas of hell, and Dis is also used as a name for Satan. thus,  leviathan of dis in the hades gamma cluster is a reference to satan."

But all and all Its the most interesting thing so far yet seen, I hope its in the game sooner or later, Although looking at the collectors and the CE armor, maybe they made the organic ship.

http://en.wikipedia....(Divine_Comedy)
http://masseffect.wi...iki/Hades_Gamma

Here's a list of the system names in Hades Gamma:

Antaeus - named after a greek giant, son of the Earth and Sea. He would challenge people to a wrestling match
and if they lost, took their heads.
Cacus - Roman fire breathing monster, ate flesh and stuck the head of victims on nails (probably where the phrase Dragon's Teeth game from for the husk devices)
Dis - See Divine Comedy reference and was also a name for the greek god Pluto (who was
lord of the underworld).
Farinata - another Dante reference, Farinata was the leader of an enemy of Dante's ancestors. Character
was based off a real person.
Plutus - Roman demigod son of Demeter and Hades, or the son of the devil.

They all seem like metaphors used as precedent for the Reaper mythos. That they are an
evil force meant to challenge each race to evolve and if the races fail, they take their "heads" which I guess could mean technology, genome, or, like I described in my theory, assimilate their minds as new units in
their hive-mind.

That was ME1. In ME2 we have Hades Nexus:

Hekate - Greek demigod, daughter of Earth and Sky. Associated with magic, dogs and "gateways",
as well as childbirth and had  eunuchs guard her temples. Plays right into the Collector mythos, the Omega-4
gateway to the Collector base, and perhaps the Collectors themselves who were clones thus much like eunuchs. Dogs were bred from nature (wolves) to help hunt and protect, just like the Collectors were genetically
modified and cloned to be used for the same purposes.
Pamyat - Russian word for memory, but also a Russian racist, xenophobic and antisemitic political group making it probably a basis for Cerberus. Planets are named after dead cosmonauts.
Sheol - Jewish name for the afterlife (no real heaven or hell in Judiasm). The single planet (Gei Hinnom) is definitely a Jewish reference to Hell and hosts an N7 mission to save a Quarian scout from Varren.

Starting to feel like the Quarians are space Jews and the Geth are golems (the original robots). Cerberus attacking the Quarians at one point makes sense after examining Hades Nexus.

There, no need to browse over another thread.

Modifié par Mallissin, 11 mars 2010 - 06:09 .

[kaff33nd]

Thanks for the linkage, Mallissin. I'm suddenly struck with a question re the significance of 'Omega' in all of this. Obviously there's the Omega map (and Aria "is" Omega), but Jack also has an Omega symbol tattooed on her back. What happened to Omega-1 through 3? As far as the Leviathan of Dis goes, the 'Leviathan' created the impact crator, yes? In The Divine Comedy, Dante said the crator was formed when Lucifer (aka Venus, aka Prometheus) fell from heaven and collided with Earth. The crator was filled in and Jerusalem was built on top of it. Just free-flow thinking here. Could the Leviathan of Dis be TIM? o.O

[kaff33nd]

Err... 'crater'. Sorry for the typo.