135 réponses à ce sujet

[Sigma Tauri]

kaff33nd wrote...

Thanks for the linkage, Mallissin. I'm suddenly struck with a question re the significance of 'Omega' in all of this. Obviously there's the Omega map (and Aria "is" Omega), but Jack also has an Omega symbol tattooed on her back. What happened to Omega-1 through 3? As far as the Leviathan of Dis goes, the 'Leviathan' created the impact crator, yes? In The Divine Comedy, Dante said the crator was formed when Lucifer (aka Venus, aka Prometheus) fell from heaven and collided with Earth. The crator was filled in and Jerusalem was built on top of it. Just free-flow thinking here. Could the Leviathan of Dis be TIM? o.O

The Leviathan of Dis is Moya. Didn't you watch Farscape?

More seriously though, omega is the final letter of the Greek alphabet. It just says that this station is at the edges of civilized known space, and we border basically the final stop before going to hell. Basically, Omega is the port to the abyss, and the place shows it. Rundown, sinful, people living in fear.

Aria's just being a dramatic biaytch. It has no mythological reference, just that you don't mess with her or she'll **** you up.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 12 mars 2010 - 05:59 .

[Sigma Tauri]

Mallissin wrote...
snip

You know, two clusters referencing to the Divine Comedy isn't enough to explain significance. There are several clusters that aren't named with descriptions from hell, and instead are named from historical figures like Armstrong, Kepler, Darwin, or Watson or originate from alien cultures like Beach Thunder.

[Mallissin]

I think the Omega-4 relay only has the number there because it's the fourth orbiting body around the sun. But it could have a meaning behind it. Omega Delta?

I'm pretty sure the Leviathan of Dis was Sovereign. The date matches up with dates in Revelation too well, so it's probably a cameo for Drew's book and a cookie crumb to follow Sovereign's path before you meet it in ME1. Others seem to agree on the ME Wiki.

http://masseffect.wi...eviathan_of_Dis

I think the Dark Energy reference on Haestrom is also related to Sovereign. I have a feeling Haestrom was where Sovereign indoctrinated the Geth and had them repair him. He sucked energy from the star, making it age.

Anyway, using the word Leviathan could be a reference to Thomas Hobbes, who wrote a book of the same name that describes government and humanity in much the same way that the Reapers view their role in the Universe. The term sovereign and sovereignty is used often in the work, and he wrote that Heaven and Hell were states on Earth, not far off mystical realms.

http://en.wikipedia....obbes#Leviathan

Modifié par Mallissin, 12 mars 2010 - 06:30 .

[Mallissin]

monkeycamoran wrote...

Mallissin wrote...
snip

You know, two clusters referencing to the Divine Comedy isn't enough to explain significance. There are several clusters that aren't named with descriptions from hell, and instead are named from historical figures like Armstrong, Kepler, Darwin, or Watson or originate from alien cultures like Beach Thunder.

It's a space game. Mentions of astronomers, astronauts, etc. won't seem out of place. Naming worlds after greek and roman stories might.

Illium is another name for Troy. Ilos was the king that founded Troy. Why use these names?

Because Virgil wrote of them and Virgil was in the Divine Comedy. It's a pretty clear path.

[Sigma Tauri]

Mallissin wrote...

It's a space game. Mentions of astronomers, astronauts, etc. won't seem out of place. Naming worlds after greek and roman stories might.

Illium is another name for Troy. Ilos was the king that founded Troy. Why use these names?

Because Virgil wrote of them and Virgil was in the Divine Comedy. It's a pretty clear path.

I hope I'm not fresh at asking this question, but have you looked at our backyard? It's quite common for astronomers to name celestial bodies after mythological figures. Europa, Ganymede, Triton, Mars, Ceres? Hell, our constellation names came from mythological figures. It's not unusual to associate a particular planet with a god, when the concept of god-planets were once common. Like the Hindu planets Rehu and Ketu.

Besides, if they were going to name Illium after Troy, why don't they reference them to Homer's Iliad than Virgil's Aeneid?

[NaclynE]

Crowb1ack wrote...

Charon turned out to be a mass relay -not a moon. However...

Charon was the ferryman of Hades who carried the souls of the deceased to the other side. Sounds a lot like a mass relay.

But I don't personally think that Cerberus is the true threat. It remains to be seen in Mass Effect 3.

Well one things for sure I know Illusive man isn't human because of those optical eyes. Maybe he's like a cyborg running on Geth technology?

Well I also know that yes Cerberus isn't the real enemy but Cerberus has done some demonic things. I recently finished two playthroughs of one (again) and found out that they have been developing the Lazurus project or "Super soldier project" as quoted by Admiral Kohoku in his set of missions for a unknown period of time. They also been trying to combine differant DNA's (geth, Thorian, Rachni, and thrawsher maw to name a few) to make the new wave in development of one bad kicking soldier. Which kind still begs me the question...What did 'they' put in you exactly? I still think the answer is in three and Illusive man is holding somthing from you that is like an ace in the hole.

To me personally the ferryman idea might actually make sense or maybe he's like the Grim Reaper or the Devil in PHANTOM OF THE PARADICE where he holds somthing over Shepard and if Shepard doesn't do what he's told, Illusive man will pull the plug on Shepard because of his/her defiance over somthing extremely key to Illusive Man.

This is my thoughts. 

[Sigma Tauri]

NaclynE wrote...
Well one things for sure I know Illusive man isn't human because of those optical eyes. Maybe he's like a cyborg running on Geth technology?

Well I also know that yes Cerberus isn't the real enemy but Cerberus has done some demonic things. I recently finished two playthroughs of one (again) and found out that they have been developing the Lazurus project or "Super soldier project" as quoted by Admiral Kohoku in his set of missions for a unknown period of time. They also been trying to combine differant DNA's (geth, Thorian, Rachni, and thrawsher maw to name a few) to make the new wave in development of one bad kicking soldier. Which kind still begs me the question...What did 'they' put in you exactly? I still think the answer is in three and Illusive man is holding somthing from you that is like an ace in the hole.

How sure are you that the Lazarus cell and the Dr. Wayne's cell are even the same? The Lazarus Project was intended only to bring Commander Shepard back as he was before he died. There was no indication that he was being built as a super soldier.

To me personally the ferryman idea might actually make sense or maybe he's like the Grim Reaper or the Devil in PHANTOM OF THE PARADICE where he holds somthing over Shepard and if Shepard doesn't do what he's told, Illusive man will pull the plug on Shepard because of his/her defiance over somthing extremely key to Illusive Man.

This is my thoughts. 

TIM stated that you always have a choice. He told Shepard that on Freedom's Progress that if there were no concrete evidence that the Reapers are behind the colonies, then they could part ways. Shepard was given a lot of autonomy at key points in the game: the most obvious one is the Collector's Base. Even when TIM wanted to off Shepard if he chose the paragon option, he had to go through Miranda who disobeyed orders.

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 12 mars 2010 - 01:53 .

[kaff33nd]

Strange that with the promise of riches (the Collector base) TIM didn't have some kind of failsafe though. Remember, Miranda told Shepard that she wanted to put some kind of control chip in his head but TIM wouldn't allow it. That really doesn't sound like TIM at all. And let's face it: If TIM lied to us, would any of us be in the least surprised?

[Tankfriend]

Miranda also said in the same dialogue that TIM apparently decided against a control device because he feared that that device might have an impact on Shepard's mental capability, though. And that's not all that unlikely given what we have seen from indoctrination (a type of mind control, afterall) so far.



In any case, if TIM had a failsafe in Shepard he could have simply used that rather than trying to get Miranda to do it as monkeycamoran has mentioned already.

The only real explanation for not using an existing failsafe in that situation would be that the failsafe itself would be powerful enough to seriosly damage or even destroy the Collector Base. And that would have to be some serious firepower packed into Shepard to pull that off. I think the absence of a failsafe is more likely than that.

[Mallissin]

monkeycamoran wrote...
I hope I'm not fresh at asking this question, but have you looked at our backyard? It's quite common for astronomers to name celestial bodies after mythological figures. Europa, Ganymede, Triton, Mars, Ceres? Hell, our constellation names came from mythological figures. It's not unusual to associate a particular planet with a god, when the concept of god-planets were once common. Like the Hindu planets Rehu and Ketu.

Right, a concept used by the writers or game designers to name stars, clusters and planets after noteable things. Except they used their own conventions that are specific references. Hence the association with the Divine Comedy I pointed out. A few other clusters have references to modern theories of star evolution, which might be the basis for the dark energy subplot, and others are homages to brilliant or brave people who advanced our understanding of space.

The selections of names for our solar system's planets and moons, or some start clusters themselves, aren't random. There was an intent. Like the moons of Jupiter being named after people related to Jupiter or Zues (Ganymede, Europa, Ilo) or Triton being a demigod of Neptune.

Why can't we assume there was some intent in selecting names for the game?

Besides, if they were going to name Illium after Troy, why don't they reference them to Homer's Iliad than Virgil's Aeneid?

Because Virgil was one of the main characters in the Divine Comedy? Because Ilium was a Roman colony on the site of Troy long after Homer? Ancient Greece is the Protheans? Rome is the latest Citadel? Because the Aeneid tells of a war uniting the many tribes to make Rome, where Iliad is mostly Greeks fighting each other?

Seems like the Virgil's Aeneid is closer to the story line of Mass Effect than Homer's Iliad before even taking the Divine Comedy references into perspective.

[Mallissin]

I wouldn't be surprised if TIM had dealings with the Collectors in his past or was even making deals with them as ME2 was unfolding. Throughout ME2 it seemed like TIM and the Collectors were locked in a hidden conflict that TIM doesn't let you in on. Instead he uses you as a game piece and taking the Collector Base would have been a checkmate in his favor.



I'd bet TIM was somehow manipulating the information the Collectors were receiving about human colonies, setting them up each time so he could work out an angle on them but sacrificing innocent human lives in the process. If this is revealed in ME3, it would set him up as a methodical monster worse than what we all think of him now.

[Sigma Tauri]

Mallissin wrote...
Right, a concept used by the writers or game designers to name stars, clusters and planets after noteable things. Except they used their own conventions that are specific references. Hence the association with the Divine Comedy I pointed out. A few other clusters have references to modern theories of star evolution, which might be the basis for the dark energy subplot, and others are homages to brilliant or brave people who advanced our understanding of space.

The selections of names for our solar system's planets and moons, or some start clusters themselves, aren't random. There was an intent. Like the moons of Jupiter being named after people related to Jupiter or Zues (Ganymede, Europa, Ilo) or Triton being a demigod of Neptune.

Why can't we assume there was some intent in selecting names for the game?

Because what can really solidify your claim is need empirical evidence r like Hades Gamma cluster strongly hints at Reaper intent.

Second, the inference has to extend beyond the Hades Gamma and Hades Nexus clusters, and not just specific places like Illium. Does the star Widow have significance? Or Valhallan Threshold, the Eagle Nebula, the Krogan DMZ, where does that lie in your view?

Because Virgil was one of the main characters in the Divine Comedy? Because Ilium was a Roman colony on the site of Troy long after Homer? Ancient Greece is the Protheans? Rome is the latest Citadel? Because the Aeneid tells of a war uniting the many tribes to make Rome, where Iliad is mostly Greeks fighting each other?

Seems like the Virgil's Aeneid is closer to the story line of Mass Effect than Homer's Iliad before even taking the Divine Comedy references into perspective.

Wait, I thought Rome was an extension of Troy since Aeneas is claimed to originate there?

I can say that because the story also references to Purgatory and Lazarus, I can state that Shepard is a Messianic figure because he died and rose from the dead. The name Shepard mentions a role referenced a lot in Christianity. I can also state in a way Shepard is a David figure because like David united the tribes of Israel against the Philsitines. Is the idea any less valid?

Modifié par monkeycamoran, 12 mars 2010 - 09:15 .

[Sigma Tauri]

kaff33nd wrote...

Strange that with the promise of riches (the Collector base) TIM didn't have some kind of failsafe though. Remember, Miranda told Shepard that she wanted to put some kind of control chip in his head but TIM wouldn't allow it. That really doesn't sound like TIM at all. And let's face it: If TIM lied to us, would any of us be in the least surprised?

No, we won't. Just saying, I'm no TIM-sympathizer here. The man's crooked, and that's repeated more than once. But, he's also good at manipulating Shepard's tunnel-vision.

[just-wil]

Just thought that I might add that I once heard a theory that the Illusive man is actually the Shadow Broker. Now this might explain where the Illusive Man is getting his large sums of money, and the need for his anonymity. On another note this is my first ever comment on the forums

[Mallissin]

monkeycamoran wrote...
Because what can really solidify your claim is need empirical evidence r like Hades Gamma cluster strongly hints at Reaper intent.

Second, the inference has to extend beyond the Hades Gamma and Hades Nexus clusters, and not just specific places like Illium. Does the star Widow have significance? Or Valhallan Threshold, the Eagle Nebula, the Krogan DMZ, where does that lie in your view?

I already went down how the systems in Hades Gamma relates to the Reaper Mythos. There are many names they could have plucked from Dante's work, why those? I'm not saying I know, I'm just presenting the observations and suggested explaination.

But the references do extend beyond just the two Hades systems. Feros, a planet filled with tall towers and ruins, is an allusion to Pharos or Faros, ancient greek for lighthouse. Ilos, where we find Vigil and the last Prothean refuge, was the founder of the first city of Troy. Illium, the Roman colony ontop of Troy, is an major Asari colony that resembles Prothean worlds (tall towers like Feros). The current societies are built on Prothean society, from the Asari to the Hanar and even Humans who found the ruins on Mars. Protheans are the Trojans, destroyed but legacy living on not only in their act of defiance against the Reapers but their involvement in some of the current Council races' evolution. Hence the mention of Virgil's Aeneid, which Dante uses as a reference himself.

I think both have a strong influence on the story in ME1 and maybe the rest of the triology.

Anyway, they're not going to make the references everywhere, that would make it too aparant and seem silly. Just like Dante and Virgil, each left small pieces to let people follow like a chain back to the source, and it seems like Bioware's writers are doing something similar.

I can say that because the story also references to Purgatory and Lazarus, I can state that Shepard is a Messianic figure because he died and rose from the dead. The name Shepard mentions a role referenced a lot in Christianity. I can also state in a way Shepard is a David figure because like David united the tribes of Israel against the Philsitines. Is the idea any less valid?

Purgatory is the second of the three books of the Divine Comedy where it begins to move out of the classical realm and into the Christian, so I don't find it that surprising that ME2 has Christian references like Lazarus or that the triology is led by someone named Shepard. Jesus himself is a David figure, the 12 disciples of Jesus and the 12 tribes of Israel? How many Olympian Gods in ancient greece? Roman Gods? Twelve? Interesting. How many possible squad mates in ME2? 12? Wow! How surreal!

So, no. I don't think what you're suggesting is less valid.

Modifié par Mallissin, 13 mars 2010 - 02:22 .

[kaff33nd]

Actually, Camoran, Jesus resurrected Lazarus. That (IMO) would make TIM the messianic figure and Shepard would be a, err.. Lazarus figure.

Edited a spelling mistake that made Jesus look more like Zeus.

Modifié par kaff33nd, 13 mars 2010 - 06:28 .

[Mallissin]

There are a lot of resurrection stories. From ancient Egypt (Osiris) or Persia (Baal), to the Hebrew Bible (Elijah and Elisha) and later Christian. I wouldn't necessarily associate the one in Mass Effect with Christianity since the word Lazarus is even used in science nowadays.



Should be noted that Farinata, one of the references from the Divine Comedy in Hades Gamma, was a resurrection denier. I first thought this was a reference to the Turian Counciler, who keeps denying the Reapers will return and such (Turians were our first adversaries, much like Farinata was the leader of Dante's ancestors greatest enemy), but maybe it was an easter egg describing what would happen in ME2.

[kaff33nd]

This thread is dying. Isn't it? Such a shame.

[Xaijin]

One thing to remember is the purpose of Cerberus was two fold; he kept intruders out, but he also kept the damned IN.

[JediMB]

Orogun01 wrote...

I know Heracles, I just don't see any similarity. There is no twelve tasks

There are twelve recruitment missions!

(Including Kasumi's, and counting the introduction, where you recruit Jacob and Miranda, as one.)

[ForrestB]

Didn't read through all this, just the OP.

Have to say, that's freakin' genius. Don't know if this has been mentioned, and I'm not gonna be the one to analyze it, but does anyone remember the Mass Effect sidequest "Hades' dogs", involving Admiral Kahoku and the Cerberus research...

I think there is a lot of merit to this, and dammit I'm gonna be pissed if you just spoiled the entire plot of ME3...lol...

Edit: Been reading through all this, awesome thread!!

Modifié par ForrestB, 14 mars 2010 - 03:58 .

[kaff33nd]

Dude... You really should read through the whole thread. It's been a really good discussion so far! You're cheating yourself by not at least scanning each page.

[GhostDieM]

Well since there seem to be a lot of theories about the underlying origins of ME I'd like to know how you guys think part 3 will unfold? (taking into consideration the monomyth, juda-christian themes etc.)

Speculate away

[greggorypeccary]

could

Modifié par greggorypeccary, 15 mars 2010 - 09:33 .