575 réponses à ce sujet

[Akka le Vil]

Yeah, I know that not everyone agree, but I'm frustrated enough that I need to get it out of my chest.

I've tried now several times to make a second playthrough of the game. But each time I try, I'm demotivated by how it feels exactly the same to fight every single foe in the game, whatever the level or the location I am.
The total lack of any character progression relative to the world is really a bummer and remove a lot of the fun I can have from playing.
I know that Bioware use some kind of big worded name for their own version of level scaling, but in the practice it just feels exactly like Oblivion, the only difference being that you don't actually SEE the enemies in full daedric armor - but the difference is purely cosmetic.

It feel exactly the same to fight a same-coloured darkspawn at level 1 or at level 10 or at level 20.

Extremely frustrating, because I'd like to replay the game, but it really spoil my fun to feel like everything is always the same, and to have absolutely no sense of becoming stronger - or fighting "stronger" or "weaker" enemies. Even the enemies themselves don't matter - you'd think that such creature would be quite more dangerous than this one, and that such trained soldier would be stronger than this average brigand. But no. Monsters are simply "mélée", "mage" or "archer" and "white", "yellow" or "orange". Everything else is simply cosmetic, and I don't feel some creature are more dangerous/weaker than other, they simply are "at the same level as everyone".
Make in the end for a VERY bland feeling of "everything is always the same" and a distinct lack of "believable world" and "fluff".

Yes, I needed to rant. Ruining so much fun because of such a stupid feature is really an extremely frustrating waste.

Gah...

[dolcet39]

i agree with you there

[CybAnt1]

I think it would be cool if it wasn't just monster level that scaled with your PC level. I think # of monsters and boss spawning should also change.



IOW, at some point in the game, let's say you run into an alpha, 2 grunts, and 2 archers. You run into them at level 5. They're level 5.



On a different playthrough, you come through at level 15. Now, not only are they level 15, but there should be an alpha, an emissary, an ogre, 5 grunts, and 4 archers.



I think that's another way the encounter difficulty/challenge should scale with level.

[Dark_Infinity_1]

I can see your point. And somewhat agree, however I would add that as you level up you get more ways of killing those same enemies. And at least its better than like in Sacred 2 where if you go back into an old area it becomes pointless to kill anything they all die in one hit and you only get 1 xp for it.



Also if the battles aren't getting easier, or if they don't 'feel' different perhaps you could change how you level up your character. I know by the end of the game even though the enemies leveled up with me I was still destroying them in one or two hits. Especially with my mage. my fireballs just wiped out crowds.

[Akka le Vil]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I think that's another way the encounter difficulty/challenge should scale with level.

You realize that the point of the thread is that encounter should NOT scale with level ?
Though I could see keeping encounters at a fixed level, but changing the number of mob in them. At least you would feel more powerful relative to single creatures, even if the encounters themselves would have somehow the same difficulty.

[Eurypterid]

Encounter level is set when you enter the area, so you can always visit an area with your character at a specific level, then leave and come back alter when you're higher level. Of course, that only works to make them lower level than you are and not the other way around. And obviously, not an ideal solution. Just thought I'd point it out if you were unaware.

[Akka le Vil]

Dark_Infinity_1 wrote...

I can see your point. And somewhat agree, however I would add that as you level up you get more ways of killing those same enemies. And at least its better than like in Sacred 2 where if you go back into an old area it becomes pointless to kill anything they all die in one hit and you only get 1 xp for it.

Well, they aren't forced to make such a bump in power than previous monsters can be OS. You can chose how power increase with level, and not necessarily make the increase steep.

Also if the battles aren't getting easier, or if they don't 'feel' different perhaps you could change how you level up your character. I know by the end of the game even though the enemies leveled up with me I was still destroying them in one or two hits. Especially with my mage. my fireballs just wiped out crowds.

The problem isn't the absolute difficulty itself, but how it always feel the same, and how the difference in enemies are only cosmetics - a darkspawn grunt is just the same as a brigand, which is the same as a soldier, which is the same as an trained personnal guard. The enemy doesn't matter (unless he's "elite" or "boss"), it's only the PC level which determine the strength of the opposition.

I should be afraid to encounter monster A, because monster A is a very strong and dangerous type of monster, but be able to manage monster B, which is a smaller and weaker animal. And I should see a significant difference between an experienced, muscular soldier and an unfit militia man with little training. Each one should have very different stat.
In DAO ? I don't encounter a "trained guard" or an "unfit militiaman". I encounter a "same-level mélée". It completely disconnect what the enemy are from what they should be, and destroy the suspension of disbelef - I don't evaluate the strength of enemies by what they are, I evaluate it by meta-gaming.

[Akka le Vil]

Eurypterid wrote...

Encounter level is set when you enter the area, so you can always visit an area with your character at a specific level, then leave and come back alter when you're higher level. Of course, that only works to make them lower level than you are and not the other way around. And obviously, not an ideal solution. Just thought I'd point it out if you were unaware.

Well, thank you about the tip. But I already know extensively how the level scaling workin DOA
It's not the first time I've bumped my head against it, but it just so completely destroyed any attempt to have fun in a second playthrough that I needed to vent it.

As a side note, I have two friends who also couldn't finish their second playthrough, for exactly the same reason - it's not surprising for one of them, as his tastes are a lot like mine, but I'm quite surprised about the other, as this kind of thing usually doesn't bother him at all - he's not interested in such mechanics usually.
Both confirmed that they also had this "it's always the same" feeling about the game, and that it made fighting and leveling feel completely pointless, as anyway everything would always be scaled.

[Akka le Vil]

Damned double-post...

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 03 mars 2010 - 05:47 .

[The_Abyss]

Its a plus and a minus. Some people like the challenge. I do admit I find it irritating to never progress - as in, the "your character gets stronger" feeling.

[Babaghanouj]

From about level 14 up I feel plenty strong compared to the mobs. It's battle, it's never easy.

[DargonBlak]

Hmmm... encounter level scaling .... a fascinating discussion...

imo, oblivion had it very wrong, and i really disliked goblins at level 28 taking 18-20 blows to kill while goblins at level 5 took 4-5 blows to kill... very annoying... they are only goblins... even though the early goblins were "goblins" and the later goblins were "goblin beserkers", after a certain point they just got way to difficult to kill... for goblins...

the other extreme (that i've played) was KOTOR when more of the enemy would just start spawning in waves and waves of death... another option, more fun and challenging, but actually also a bit annoying...

The method you are proposing, which to me sounds like sort of a mix between oblivion and KOTOR in this example, would have the greatest potential for fun and realism... instead of merely scaling the level of the creatures, also scale the creature type by encounter level... at the same time, blend in a scaled quantity of bad guys...

in my normal pen&paper world (old school), Encounter Level tables, and Challenge Ratings are easily used to scale any given encounter to be Easy, Normal, Hard, or Very Difficult...

So, i suppose, if we can do it in our short words, and we can develop a table and equations that can relate Party Level, Challenge Rating, and Difficulty to Encounter Level, i suppose they could do it in software... but i also suppose that this is what they are in fact doing (in a certain way)...

so, while i agree with some of your points, i think we should keep in mind that because of the current "level scaling" we are not forced to follow a specific path or order as to which quest we do first... if they did require us to follow the exact same path each time we played due to the fixed encounter level of each quest, i think many people would find the game far less enjoyable...

i agree the Encounter Level Scaling could be done better, but it's not as bad as Oblivion (imo).

[Akka le Vil]

The_Abyss wrote...

Its a plus and a minus. Some people like the challenge. I do admit I find it irritating to never progress - as in, the "your character gets stronger" feeling.

There is no really a "challenge" when everything, everywhere is the same. There is just "blandness".
You remember a challenging fight because it's special. When every single white/yellow mob is the same as every single mob of the same colour, where are the variety, the immersion and the fun ?

The interesting challenge is the logical one, as in "wow, there is a drake, a 5-m long creature with teeth the size of my arm... THAT is a dangerous creature !". That is an interesting, logical, sensical, immersive challenge.
"Wow guy, beware, this tough one here managed to kill a drake !"

The non-logical, purely meta-gaming one ("well, I'm level 15, so the next plot NPC will be very challenging because he will be scaled to my level even if he's a mouse-man 20 cm tall") is not interesting, bland and boring.
"Wow guy, beware, this guy is a hero, despite the fact that any rag-tag brigand and any random wolf is just as strong as him."

There is some part of the game where I'm pitted against supposed kingdom-wide champion, and easily beat them while I'm lvl 2. And some times later, I'm fighting beggars, and I'm level 7. And both are exactly as strong relative to my character. WTF ?

[Mordaedil]

Dragon Age doesn't have "level scaling" in the sense that Oblivion has it though.



But it works like NWN, so changing this is... Like kinda asking to make the game more linear.

[Cuthlan]

The concept of levels as they exist is most games is pretty silly anyway, so I actually find this to be a good counter to it.

[thehawk-RC]

I personally liked the way Baldurs Gate did 'level scaling'...

[Akka le Vil]

Mordaedil wrote...

Dragon Age doesn't have "level scaling" in the sense that Oblivion has it though.

Actually, it is SAID that it's different, but in practice it's exactly the same. The upper and lower level limits are so large that you nearly never encounter them, and anyway even if you encounter them, the enemies are still all the same, just with capped stat.

But it works like NWN, so changing this is... Like kinda asking to make the game more linear.

Linearity has NOTHING to do with level scaling, as it was very often proved (taking Fallout 1 as the usual example).

And even if it was true, I prefer linearity + progression + consistency to non-linearity + blandness + lack of immersion.

[Akka le Vil]

Cuthlan wrote...

The concept of levels as they exist is most games is pretty silly anyway, so I actually find this to be a good counter to it.

Then remove the leveling from the game. I would actually wouldn't mind as much having NO leveling and every monsters being consistent in the power they should have, than have the wreck DAO is in the power management of the creatures.

[harlath]

Babaghanouj wrote...

From about level 14 up I feel plenty strong compared to the mobs. It's battle, it's never easy.

One potential reason for this is that Hurlocks cap out at level 14 while Genlocks cap out at level 13 (in both cases for standard "white" versions).

I've made a start on a "no level scaling mod", please see my signature. It doesn't deal with DLC areas yet, but apparently there is a solution, I've just not started trying to implement it yet.

[Akka le Vil]

The whole concept of "foes have a level depending on the zone" is completely idiotic at its core...



"this is a wolf, but it's three times as powerful as the exact same one here, because well, you entered the forest being more experienced than when you entered the mountain !"



A wolf should be a wolf, whatever the place it is, and only have a small level variability to reflect the individual difference, not a "out of the blue" strength that magically makes it as powerful as a dragon or as weak as a kitten...



The very approach is really completely absurd...

[Sylvius the Mad]

There are some enemies and areas in DA that have a level floor.

Revenents are always at least level 14, so if you meet one right out of Lothering (and there are certainly two you can find right away) that would be extremely challenging.

Denerim's level floor is apparently 10.

The whole game does not scale like Oblivion. I would have liked to see more level ceilings on creatures (generic darkspawn, for example), though it's not like you don't meet some who are well beneath you. I recall at one point encountering a large group of level 13 genlocks, and I was level 21. I prefer a Baldur's Gate style level scaling, where you can still meet foes who aren't ever going to hurt you, but just a zone away meet something else that will kill you every time.

[Danielsun2]

i like the lvl scailing imo its better than having to lvl up to visit other areas because if you think about it, they will have selected areas for specific levels forest say ostagar like 4-6 forest 6-11 just examples but if the whole world was like that, that would be *less* replayability knowing where you have to go



i like having the ability to chose, and if i wanna make it harder, ill just up the difficulty and if i want it even more harder well i can always fight naked

[Blue_dodo]

level scaling is a real tricky issue,  oblivion did it horribly  fighting of 12 deadrioth, as well as dremoras and frost atronachssimaltaniously is NOT fun

sacred 2 was better, certain areas were locked of in quest mode and as you got a higher survival bonus (i.e not dieing) everything improved but creatures also became progressivaly harder, of course it had it's problems such as no pause screen and the fact the game saves every time you die.

dragon age is better imo, you know right of the bat from the first fight when and if you are to low levaled, although admittingly the game suddenly becomes really difficult,wolf encounter anybody

[Chuck_Vu]

I don't mind if Critical NPCs, bosses and the like level with you. But just because I worked hard at becoming a living God, I should not be fighting for my life against a Godlike cannon fodder. Cannon fodder should either run away in sheer terror, or die from a single finger flick. But that's just my opinion.

[Akka le Vil]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There are some enemies and areas in DA that have a level floor.
Revenents are always at least level 14, so if you meet one right out of Lothering (and there are certainly two you can find right away) that would be extremely challenging.
Denerim's level floor is apparently 10.

And this is completely stupid.
"hey, I'm just a standard commoner, but I'm in Denerim so I'm stronger than the elite guard that actually fought the darkspawns at Ostagar, because HEY I'M IN A LEVEL TEN ZONE YOU SEE !"

Seriously ?

The whole game does not scale like Oblivion.

Actually, like I said in a previous post, despite all the nice talk about the very thorough system made just for that yadda yadda, it still works exactly like Oblivion, with monsters perfectly matching your level as long as you are between their "floor" and "ceiling" level, and these floor and ceiling are so large that in the end you have a prefect level match for 90 % of the game.

It still doesn't make any sense that a dangerous monster is weaker than a regular man just because you encountered the dangerous monster first, and it doesn't change the fact that the fighting is completely bland because EVERYTHING is based on your level, and as such opponents just feel the same everywhere.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 04 mars 2010 - 12:05 .