575 réponses à ce sujet

[Upper_Krust]

To get back on the subject of Level Scaling...

...can anyone name any other RPGs where you fight the same enemies at the end of the game that you did at the beginning?

...and just as relevant, fight them in the same paltry numbers?

I am sure there are a few action RPGs which do this, but I haven't played a lot of standard RPGs these past 10 years. I remember this didn't happen in Final Fantasy's 7, 8 and 9. I also know it doesn't happen in Final Fantasy 13.

[tmp7704]

Paromlin wrote...

Now, if Bioware invested in the creation of 4 (four) difficulty levels it means they care a lot about having various challenge levels.

Yes; but i think it should be taken into consideration that one man's "nightmare" can be another man's "easy". As such, it's quite possible that the stats gathered from people who played the game with the 'send feedback' option enabled indicated that, on average there was too much trouble with the game difficulty on the whole. And it's that average level of prowess (or lack thereof) the game was adjusted to.

We can question that of course, but having noo access to that data it's bound to be limited to gut feel and anecdotal evidence.

[Paromlin]

Upper_Krust, I don't know, but they definitely overdid it with darkspawn in DA. I mean.. after the 1000th time you see the same genlock and hurlock model (who even mirror your level); you have a gut feeling of itz a bit too much guyz.

But.. that wasn't the question, was it?

tmp7704 wrote...
it's quite possible that the stats gathered from people who played the game with the 'send feedback' option enabled indicated that...

Oh god, you're stretching it so much.

[Upper_Krust]

Paromlin wrote...

Upper_Krust, I don't know, but they definitely overdid it with darkspawn in DA. I mean.. after the 1000th time you see the same genlock and hurlock model (who even mirror your level); you have a gut feeling of itz a bit too much guyz.

One of the other threads questions how many Darkspawn did you kill in the game. From that we can estimate that darkspawn constitute about 40% of the total enemies you face...even though they only represent about 10% of the actual enemy types.

But.. that wasn't the question, was it?

Which still stands...what other RPGs make you battle the same enemies at the start as you do at the finish?

[tmp7704]

Paromlin wrote...

Oh god, you're stretching it so much.

Yup, heavens forbid developers made use out of function they spent their time implementing

[Zem_]

Paromlin wrote...

Upper_Krust, I don't know, but they definitely overdid it with darkspawn in DA. I mean.. after the 1000th time you see the same genlock and hurlock model (who even mirror your level); you have a gut feeling of itz a bit too much guyz.

I wonder if they are saying the same thing about you.

"Geez...humans, dwarves, and elves... AGAIN?  I've killed a thousand of these guys already.   Can't they come up with something new?"

Which brings to mind another question.   Does it really not make sense that the Darkspawn are leveling up?  YOU are, after all.  These guys hit the surface and start killing humans, elves, whatever gets in their way.  How many levels do you figure they gained at Ostagar?  Or by the time you run into a big group of them on the road?  Why would their names and appearances change?  My rogue looked more or less the same at the end of the game as near the beginning.  Leather armor?  Swords?  Check.  Couldn't even get a hair-cut or add some spiffy rank title like "Omega Type 9000!" to my name as befits my status as superpowerful adventurer level 23!

Level scaling makes more sense than fixed levels really.  The longer it takes you to reach them, the longer they've been killing and earning XP on the surface since the beginning of the game.  Why must they be static while YOU are the only one to gain in power? 

Oh wait, I remember.  Because a lot of other games do it that way.

[dragon_83]

Zem_ wrote...


Which brings to mind another question.   Does it really not make sense that the Darkspawn are leveling up?  YOU are, after all.  These guys hit the surface and start killing humans, elves, whatever gets in their way. 

Level scaling makes more sense than fixed levels really.  The longer it takes you to reach them, the longer they've been killing and earning XP on the surface since the beginning of the game.  Why must they be static while YOU are the only one to gain in power? 

Oh wait, I remember.  Because a lot of other games do it that way.

That's true, even the darkspawn can level up, after so much fighting. But in DAO every enemy, and everywhere level up to your level. Not that's a little strange. There are places where they clearly haven't battled anyone else, yet they leveled up.

[AlanC9]

Upper_Krust wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Hell, I'll go further. Expand that to any genre. Games in general are easier than they used to be, across the board. The trend seems to have started around 15 years ago. No game company has seen any reason to buck this trend.

Either they're all wrong together, or new gamers don't have the tolerance for difficulty that us old-school types did, or most customers never really wanted difficult games in the first place. 

Unfortunately your argument gets obliterated by a little something called multiple Difficulty Levels. This way you can make games simultaneously easier AND harder. You can cater for both the casual gamer AND the hardcore gamer and anywhere in between.

Older games had different difficulty levels too. That doesn't change anything about my argument. The hardest difficulty levels are easier than they used to be as well.

Just to be clear, I am not arguing that companies can't cater to people who want harder games. I'm just saying that there aren't enough of you to particularly care about doing it.

Actually, I'm not quite clear what we mean by "harder." BG1, mentioned upthread (by you?) isn't what I would call difficult. It's a pretty easy game to master, actually. The big difference is that perfect play in BG1 doesn't guarantee you a win the way it does in DA, because the D&D system is more random than DA's.

[Paromlin]

Zem_ wrote...


I wonder if they are saying the same thing about you.

"Geez...humans, dwarves, and elves... AGAIN?  I've killed a thousand of these guys already.   Can't they come up with something new?"

This was an attempt at humor. Am I right?

Which brings to mind another question.   Does it really not make sense that the Darkspawn are leveling up?  YOU are, after all.  These guys hit the surface and start killing humans, elves, whatever gets in their way.  How many levels do you figure they gained at Ostagar?  Or by the time you run into a big group of them on the road?  Why would their names and appearances change?  My rogue looked more or less the same at the end of the game as near the beginning.  Leather armor?  Swords?  Check.  Couldn't even get a hair-cut or add some spiffy rank title like "Omega Type 9000!" to my name as befits my status as superpowerful adventurer level 23!

Ah sure, they can level up... just not in the SAME EXACT MOMENT I DO, for no believable reason whatsoever.

Level scaling makes more sense than fixed levels really.  The longer it takes you to reach them, the longer they've been killing and earning XP on the surface since the beginning of the game.  Why must they be static while YOU are the only one to gain in power? 

You're wrong. It doesn't make sense at all.
They reached their level 20, 15, 7, 3 or whatever level they are - somehow. It's just unrelated to YOUR level-upping, as it should be. 

Oh wait, I remember.  Because a lot of other games do it that way.

Oh wait, they implemented level scaling because "next-gen" developers think that people want to be handheld through the game like they're challenge impaired or worse.

[ladydesire]

Upper_Krust wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

They aren't all easy;

Nightmare on Awakening = Normal on DAO.

Why? What is there in Awakening that is not in the base game, besides Runes for Armor and Stamina potions and the new "Epic level" class abilities and Specializations? To the best of my knowledge, those are the only reason there is a possiblity that the overall game difficulty seems to have dropped.

it's your choice to build the character by putting all your Attribute points into one or two Attributes that makes the difference. If Bioware meant for us to do that, wouldn't they only make certain Attributes available to each class?

Not necessarily. Bioware may not have known what effect boosting certain attributes over others would have in the game. Constitution is widely regarded as a dump stat for warriors. Primarily because characters are at full hit points for each battle.

Constitution does more than just increase your hit points, just like Magic does more than just increase the damage done by offensive spells; I'm sure that the other stats have similar benefits that people overlook. It's not Bioware's fault that people have different and sometimes incompatible ideas of what a game's difficulty should be balanced around.

[AlanC9]

The question is not whether Constitution has benefits, the question is whether it has benefits that outweigh not having the points in something else. As near as I can tell the answer to this is no, and it's not even close. Even a well-designed character with increased CON would be improved by switching those points into something useful.

[astrallite]

The darkspawn are repeatedly described as being mindless so I'm not sure how they started leveling up.

They have great numbers; killing them should be nothing more than peeling layers off an apple--it doesn't get any denser all of a sudden.

Even if we were to apply an extremely unlikely scenario of survival of the fittest (this would require a scenario where the darkspawn apparently all kill each other during "off-time" so only the strongest survive), why would they ALL be leveling up?

There are a lot of physical freaks in boxing, martial arts, and high level competition weeds out the chaffe. But only a select few truly "level up," get better after every fight, learn from their mistakes, pick up new techniques--the Anderson Silvas or Georges St Pierre's of the world. If the Darkspawn army was all full of blight paragons, why haven't they taken over the world?

Modifié par astrallite, 29 mars 2010 - 05:28 .

[astrallite]

Upper_Krust wrote...

To get back on the subject of Level Scaling...

...can anyone name any other RPGs where you fight the same enemies at the end of the game that you did at the beginning?

...and just as relevant, fight them in the same paltry numbers?

I am sure there are a few action RPGs which do this, but I haven't played a lot of standard RPGs these past 10 years. I remember this didn't happen in Final Fantasy's 7, 8 and 9. I also know it doesn't happen in Final Fantasy 13.

Dear proletariat, you quoted JRPGS?! HAH! Those aren't RPGs. Neither are Bethesda games. Neither are CD Projekt games. Neither are Blizzard. In other words--only Bioware makes RPGs!

/green font.

[Casper]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Casper wrote...

I haven't read all the replies so it might be that somebody else already mentioned what I am about to say.

I think they have done this to help people play the DLCs at any time during the course of the original campaign...but I understand the cons also.

Considering how worthless the DLC are, it's really sacrificing a lot to gain nothing in return...

Also, another thing that came into my mind...sorry if this also has been said. In this way the game is not linear and different areas can be explored in any order. If there were fixed level areas then the story would have been that more linear.

[dragon_83]

astrallite wrote...

Upper_Krust wrote...

To get back on the subject of Level Scaling...

...can anyone name any other RPGs where you fight the same enemies at the end of the game that you did at the beginning?

...and just as relevant, fight them in the same paltry numbers?

I am sure there are a few action RPGs which do this, but I haven't played a lot of standard RPGs these past 10 years. I remember this didn't happen in Final Fantasy's 7, 8 and 9. I also know it doesn't happen in Final Fantasy 13.

Dear proletariat, you quoted JRPGS?! HAH! Those aren't RPGs. Neither are Bethesda games. Neither are CD Projekt games. Neither are Blizzard. In other words--only Bioware makes RPGs!

/green font.

Oh God . I just pretend that I didn't see that.

Casper wrote...
Also, another thing that came into my mind...sorry if this also has been
said. In this way the game is not linear and different areas can be
explored in any order. If there were fixed level areas then the story
would have been that more linear.

I agree with this to an extent. But! First of all, a bit more linearity wouldn't hurt the game IMO, because it is not the non-linearity, which made it so good. For example, there are fixed levels in BG, yet there are plenty of places where you can go (but it's true that you can't go to everywhere from the start). If the game has enough content and it is well balanced, then there are several places for low, medium and high level adventurers.

Modifié par dragon_83, 29 mars 2010 - 11:58 .

[Paromlin]

dragon_83 wrote...
 For example, there are fixed levels in BG, yet there are plenty of places where you can go (but it's true that you can't go anywhere from the start). If the game has enough content and it is well balanced, then there are several places for low, medium and high level adventurers.

Definitely. That's what makes a great adventure. 
For instance, you can try going to a high level area with a mid level character... and naturally you're not guaranteed success.

[dragon_83]

Paromlin wrote...
 you can try going to a high level area with a mid level character... and naturally you're not guaranteed success.

Yep, and if you are good enough, you can finish a high level area, with a mid level character. It will be difficult like hell, but you can do it if you play right.  And victory will be much more sweeter.

[Upper_Krust]

ladydesire wrote...

Why? What is there in Awakening that is not in the base game, besides Runes for Armor and Stamina potions and the new "Epic level" class abilities and Specializations? To the best of my knowledge, those are the only reason there is a possiblity that the overall game difficulty seems to have dropped.

No those are not the reasons, or at least not the main reasons.

The main reason is that Levelling Up itself (in tandem with all the benefits like magic items which increase in power) makes the disparity between the PCs and the Enemies greater and greater.

If continued apace, by the time we get to the next expansion in February 2011, the game will be able to auto win via NPC tactics on Nightmare.

Even if enemies are Level Scaled its clear that key dynamics like Magic Items are not taken into account for enemy level scaling.

This could easily be sorted out by giving enemies the benefits of magic items based on Level plus Rank.

ie. Enemy Equipment Tier =

+1 for every span of 5 Levels (1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20 etc.)
+1 for every Rank above Normal (Lieutenant, Boss, Elite Boss)

So a Level 10 Boss would have Tier 4 Equipment. A Level 20 Elite Boss would have Tier 7 Equipment.

Constitution does more than just increase your hit points, just like Magic does more than just increase the damage done by offensive spells; I'm sure that the other stats have similar benefits that people overlook. It's not Bioware's fault that people have different and sometimes incompatible ideas of what a game's difficulty should be balanced around.

this has already been answered. Its not that Constitution has NO benefits. Its simply that those benefits are nowhere near equal to benefits gained from other ability scores.

[Zem_]

Upper_Krust wrote...

The main reason is that Levelling Up itself (in tandem with all the benefits like magic items which increase in power) makes the disparity between the PCs and the Enemies greater and greater.

Giving them better gear would help, but I'd say AI is an ever bigger issue, and I am not even talking about exploits.  The more abilities you add, the more choices you have in combat, and thus the more complex the decision making process is.  AI is simply not able to make the best use of those abilties.  Just look at rogues.  Is the AI even capable of making sure rogues are positioned properly for backstabs against the highest threat foes?  Will they send a stealthed assassin to flank and take out your mage while the rest of them provide a diversion?  Are their mages smart about using AoEs, placing ground effect spells to hinder your progress at choke points?

Aside from certain scripted events, they pretty much are not able to employ advanced tactics or to use their abilities wisely.  They rely on numbers (and liberal abuse of the "cutscene" )  But however you slice it, the more abilities you get as you gain levels, the harder it becomes for the AI to out-think a human player, even if they have the same bag of tricks. 

[Paromlin]

Zem_ wrote...

 AI is simply not able to make the best use of those abilties.   

If you're talking about AI developed by Bioware then yes. If you're talking in general then no.
Just take a look at the wonderful work TonyK has done for NWN2 AI. If a single person can do it, then you'd expect a company that produces video games can do it as well...

...or not. Countdown!

[ladydesire]

Paromlin wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

 AI is simply not able to make the best use of
those abilties.   

If you're talking about AI developed by Bioware
then yes. If you're talking in general then no.
Just take a look at the wonderful work TonyK
has done for NWN2 AI. If a single person can do
it, then you'd expect a company that produces
video games can do it as well...


...or not. Countdown!

I'd say part of the problem with the AI is that it doesn't treat Mages as a threat, which is exactly the opposite of what people are used to, but entirely in line with the lore of Thedas. I'm thinking about reworking it to add new tactical conditions for Ranged and Melee fighters (Warriors and Rogues), since I believe that enemy Mages are fine as they currently stand, though I am open to suggestion for them as well.

[tmp7704]

ladydesire wrote...

I'd say part of the problem with the AI is that it doesn't treat Mages as a threat, which is exactly the opposite of what people are used to, but entirely in line with the lore of Thedas.

I think that isn't exactly a problem but mechanics "working as intended" -- i believe the AI is made to select the enemies in heavy armour first precisely to avoid the complaints from the players "i play a mage and the dumb AI always kills me first in two shots, tanks are broken, fix it bioware wahwahwah" despite this being a logical course of action these players implement themselves.

Shrewd and efficient AI simply doesn't result in what lot of people expect from their games, or in the game being fun for them.

[ladydesire]

tmp7704 wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

I'd say part of the problem with the AI is that it
doesn't treat Mages as a threat, which is exactly
the opposite of what people are used to, but
entirely in line with the lore of Thedas.

I think that isn't exactly a problem but
mechanics "working as intended" -- i believe
the AI is made to select the enemies in heavy
armour first precisely to avoid the complaints
from the players "i play a mage and the dumb
AI always kills me first in two shots, tanks are
broken, fix it bioware wahwahwah" despite this
being a logical course of action these players
implement themselves.

True, but shouldn't the AI adapt at different
difficulty levels, since not everyone may want "
dumb as a box of rocks" AI.

Shrewd and efficient AI simply doesn't
result in
what lot of people expect from their games, or
in the game being fun for them.

And yet, didn't Obsidian implement a modified
form of Tony K's AI in their Neverwinter Nights
2 expansion Storm of Zehir, because players
were complaining that the AI wasn't smart
enough? Also, Tony K did work to improve the
AI in Neverwinter Nights as well, which formed
the basis for his NWN2 work.

Modifié par ladydesire, 30 mars 2010 - 01:38 .

[ladydesire]

dragon_83 wrote...
That's true, even the darkspawn can level up,
after so much fighting. But in DAO every
enemy, and everywhere level up to your level.
Not that's a little strange. There are places
where they clearly haven't battled anyone else,
yet they leveled up.

Just because you don't see evidence of them having fought anything in the area you encounter them doesn't mean they didn't fight something at some point.

[DMTyrisis]

I think this is western RPGs answer to non-linear questing. I appreciate the ability to go where I want, and if this is the result, I can deal with it. I always choose Orzamaar last though...I hate that place