575 réponses à ce sujet

[joey_mork84]

LOL Boomba.. Save it in your arsenal for later ..



Btw, I love the sig lol.. I actually think I was in the thread you got that from.

[MrBoomba]

Ya, I even posted I was stealing it as a sig, lol.

[imran shah]

i think iam a troll



now i want to hear that witty line

[joey_mork84]

LMAO Just can't wait for the troll's inevitable comeback, can you Imran?.. I have to admit tho.. I'm kind of anxious to hear it as well lol

[MrBoomba]

We appreciate feedback.



We really do.



Indeed, we wait with bated breath for your suggestions on how we can make the game better.



Sometimes, it's good.



Except replace the word "sometimes" with the word "rarely".



My particular favorite is the many (many, many, MANY) suggestions we get on how to "balance" the job system.



Do you have any idea how difficult it is to create balance in a system that has 20 entirely different job classes?



They have different abilities.



With different roles.



One might even say they were DIFFERENT JOBS.



Suppose your house was on fire.



No, it's not really on fire. Sit back down.



It's a metaphor, stupid.



So, your house is on fire.



A firefighter shows up.



A police officer.



Maybe a paramedic.



And then a shoe salesman.



Yes.



A shoe salesman.



Now, a shoe salesman might not be as helpful in this type of situation.



BurnVictim>> Someone help me!

BurnVictim>> I'm hurt!

ShoeSalesman>> You know what you need?

ShoeSalesman>> Sneakers.



But he shows up anyway.



And then starts complaining that he's not as helpful as the other people there.



ShoeSalesman>> This is so unfair.

ShoeSalesman>> Damned firefighters with the...

ShoeSalesman>> Saving people...

ShoeSalesman>> From fire...



He starts going on all the fire-fighting related forums.



Post Title: Fire fighting unbalanced



y is it every time there's a fire, everyone invites the firemen? they should totally nerf firefighters.



Then he starts calling up the fire department.



ShoeSalesman>> I have some good ideas on how to balance the fire fighting system.

ShoeSalesman>> They should adjust the strength of the fire.

ShoeSalesman>> Or maybe make the fire weak to... shoes.

FireChief>> Have you lost your mind?

ShoeSalesman>> That totally wouldn't make shoe salesmen overpowered.

ShoeSalesman>> We'd just be a viable job class.

FireChief>> I'm going to hang up now.



There are situations where a shoe salesman would be helpful.



You need a new pair of nikes? Helpful.



You need a nice pair of high heels? Helpful.



You need someone to keep you from burning to death? Not so much.



But the shoe salesman still expects you to completely revamp the entire system to make them more "balanced".



Here is how I might respond to the aforementioned shoe salesman:



GET ANOTHER DAMNED JOB!



If you want to fight fires, BECOME A FIREMAN!



I hate people.



Tomorrow, I'm going to go kick a shoe salesman in the balls.



Hard.



And when he asks for medical help, I'm calling a dry cleaner.



Let's see how he feels about balance then.

[MrBoomba]

Sorry, I just find it funnier every time and I find it hard to resist posting it D:

[Tirigon]

joey_mork84 wrote...

Careful Tirigon.. Don't get to close to the trolls. They frighten easy and crumble under the pressure of their wrongness..

Thx for the warning, but I´m used to trolls.
I even have various Anti-Troll Deodorants. And the awesome TrollBEAT4000 club exclusively available by Coca-Cola.

[joey_mork84]

LMAO Boomba.. That is pure WIN! lol.. I'm going to steal that and save it for future use.. EPIC! lol

[MrBoomba]

I sadly cannot take credit for it, the credit goes to the mods that run FFXI, I use to play it and was on the forums of it one day, I saw it and lol'd for like 10 minutes straight.

[joey_mork84]

Yea, I can imagine! lol.. I just got done LOLing from it.. I'm laughing so hard I have tears running down my face from it! lmao

[imran shah]

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA........

[joey_mork84]

I have a very strong urge to start a group specifically for dealing with forum trolls... This thread has inspired me! lmao

[MrBoomba]

I just like screwing with them personally, so let them come to the forums, i will be waiting to troll the trolls!

[joey_mork84]

LMAO I get a certain enjoyment out of frustrating them to the point where they leave the forums entirely (sometimes for days and days).. That is what I call troll bashing lmao

[joey_mork84]

We have officially derailed this thread to the point of no return.. Something else I'm very good at lmao

[Sable Phoenix]

This bothered me not one whit. In fact, I'm the kind of person who, if it were possible to play an RPG through from beginning to end at the level cap with every ability ready for use, would do so and enjoy it more than leveling. Leveling always feels like an artificial mechanic to me, and I would rather have the much broader choice of tactical options and combat depth at high levels available to me from the start rather than slogging through a bunch of levels that are relatively the same and relatively boring due to limited abilities.

[g0d85]

I believe the game was too easy, even on "Nightmare". There are a few enemies that gave me some trouble, (e.g. High Dragon, Queen of the Blackmarsh), but other than that it was not too difficult. Awakening was WAY too easy.

[Tirigon]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

This bothered me not one whit. In fact, I'm the kind of person who, if it were possible to play an RPG through from beginning to end at the level cap with every ability ready for use, would do so and enjoy it more than leveling. Leveling always feels like an artificial mechanic to me, and I would rather have the much broader choice of tactical options and combat depth at high levels available to me from the start rather than slogging through a bunch of levels that are relatively the same and relatively boring due to limited abilities.

Tirigon agrees 100%


Reminds me of the good old Oblivion times. First thing in a new game was cheating all my skills (major AND minor) to the maximum, so I didn´t have to waste time leveling.

[Upper_Krust]

Paromlin wrote...

Oh, Jesus Christ. First this and later I'll try to clear that guy's confusion about logic.

Easy tiger, just a debate, don't get too worked up about it. I'm not reading every post in this thread but it looks like its turning into a bit of a flame war with you and a few others - thats not my 'bag'.

No, you misunderstood. Nothing scales and everything has a set level.

 Perhaps you don't understand how level scaling is done in Dragon Age - it's BY AREA not by creature.

He simply assigned a fixed level to each are, not a range of levels.

SO, if the same monsters feature in different areas (and almost every monster does) this mod assigns it a different level...how the hootin heck is that any different from Level Scaling?

So what if they're accessible? That's the point, no? You can try, and you probably will defeat some enemies - get some xp and find some loot, but you're not guaranteed to be able to defeat the enitre area cluster HERE & NOW.

It'll be a squash. Players like to feel they are making progress not running up against a brick wall - many casual gamers would give up at this point. Bottom line is that its bad game design.

Oh, poor babies. Let's cry together for them, shall we?

But what'll really happen is that via reviews and word of mouth your game sales will be far less than they otherwise would be because you designed the game badly.

So it won't so much be poor babies, as poor sales.

No, that's the fun. Some WILL BE ABLE TO, SOME WON'T. Those who won't will have to find another solution.

Its not fun, its masochism. Theres a reason why games are not as tough as they used to be, because the ratio between fun and challenge was incorrect for the vast majority of gamers.

That's all part of a game that is NOT linear, yet has NO level scaling.

Your mod still has scaling - AREA scaling. Which is based off level, thus in effect it still has level scaling.

That's how games were done ONCE upon a time when people still wanted a challenge and were not cry babies who want everything served on a silver plate, coupled with silly romances and a MMO ruleset.

I'd be happy to hear a list of games done like that?

No, you were not right and still aren't, because you didn't understand what I wrote.

Only because you told me it removes level scaling, which it clearly doesn't do.

[ladydesire]

Upper_Krust wrote...

No, that's the fun. Some WILL BE ABLE TO, SOME WON'T. Those who won't will have to find another solution.

Its not fun, its masochism. Theres a reason why games are not as tough as they used to be, because the ratio between fun and challenge was incorrect for the vast majority of gamers.

Exactly; any developer that understands the gaming market will adapt if they want to remain successful, which Bioware has done.

That's all part of a game that is NOT linear, yet has NO level scaling.

Your mod still has scaling - AREA scaling. Which is based off level, thus in effect it still has level scaling.

I don't think any game has ever not had some form of scaling, despite what he seems to believe.Past games have had it based around the foes you fight rather than the player character though.

That's how games were done ONCE upon a time when people still wanted a challenge and were not cry babies who want everything served on a silver plate, coupled with silly romances and a MMO ruleset.

I'd be happy to hear a list of games done like that?

I'm sure he's thinking of the original Fallout and Baldur's Gate, among others. But as I just said, those had level scaling too, just a different form of it.

No, you were not right and still aren't, because you didn't understand what I wrote.

Only because you told me it removes level scaling, which it clearly doesn't do.

To remove level scaling you need to remove the leveling of characters; it's that simple.

[Halkus]

I feel Bioware made significant steps forward with level scaling in Dragon Age, in comparison to other games.



It used to be the case in RPGs years ago that there was no level scaling. So there would be three ways of playing...



Normal, where you would go through the game in the way the developers imagined, and you would find some tough fights broken up by moderate fights.



Completionist, where you would do everything you could before moving on, and you'd then become a level or two ahead of the 'normal' player, thus everything would be easy.



And racer, where you'd just go straight on with the main plot, and quickly find that halfway through the game you'd missed so much you were far too weak to progress.



So taking Ultima VII for example, if you rushed on with the main plot you'd be reloading lots of saves. If you avoided the main plot until you'd done everything then you'd romp through it.



The first game with level scaling that comes to mind is.Neverwinter Nights. Level scaling was taken far too seriously here. No matter what you did the monsters scaled to your level. Clearly Bioware have learned from this, and we see something a bit matured in Dragon Age. With Neverwinter Nights it didn't matter what order you did things in, because the game would (over) compensate. This did harm gameplay.



The worst example I can think of is Morrowind/Oblivion. The games actually got harder the higher level you were. You were penalised for gaining levels. This was made significantly worse by the awful leveling system in the game, which essentially ensured that the game became unplayable if you picked the skills you used the most as primary skills. Thankfully Bioware make better games. Or if I want to be a little critical Bioware make a better game... because every game does feel like a Bioware game. That's complimentary as well I suppose.



What I've noticed with one playthrough of Dragon Age is that there is level scaling, BUT there's also tough encounters. There's nothing nicer than going and taking on a tough encounter before you're supposed to, and getting a nice reward as a result. Level scaling vs. no level scaling is of course a balancing act, and I feel Bioware got it as right as they could have done in this game.



The only part where Bioware dropped the ball is with rewards. Certain rewards in the game are scaled to your level. The stats they give are for the most part static, however the material they are made from varies based on your level. Meaning if you get them early in the game then later in the game they're going to suck. A lot of heavy armour comes from a specific part of the main quest, meaning that if you do that part at level 8 rather than level 20 then you'll see a stark difference in your choice of equipment at end game. This is of course offset a little because there is leveled gear all over the place, so you can't have it all at high level, or all at low level. It's somewhat made worse because many of the quest rewards are not leveled, meaning you get rewards that don't even sell well, never mind being usable.



The only hole Bioware need to close, in my opinion, is making sure that items fall into three categories. 1) It is the way it is, and it stays that way. So items intentiionally weak or strong stay that way. or 2) It's supposed to be leveled because it's either a very important item that players should be able to use all the time, or it's an easy to get item and shouldn't be powerful no matter when the characters get hold of it. 2 should be further split down into items that can be upleveled and items that cannot.



An example for part 1 would be the shield dwarf nobles get when they reunite with their second, at a relatively early to mid point in the game. That item should be more powerful than other items that they are able to get hold of at that point in the game, however if the player waits until late in the game to get it, then it should not be a gamewinner. From that it should have a specific value and stay there.



Rewards for finishing parts of the main quest on the other hand should fall into category 2. Likewise the gear you get from DLC, and it should stay good, which means upgrading over the course of the game. On the other strange little one off quests should yield an item that's levelled to ensure it's possibly useful at the time, but never great.



As for how to do it... well, Bioware accidentally (or intentionally) got it right with the DLC smith. Sell something to him, and buy it back and it's upgraded. It costs the player money of course, which is fine. It'd be even better if they did it on purpose.



As far as the ceilings and floors for monsters in the game, Perhaps some tweaking could be done, but at the end of the day you can't get all the advantages of leveled monsters without the disadvantages of leveled monsters, a compromise has to be met,

[Tirigon]

Halkus wrote...


The worst example I can think of is Morrowind/Oblivion. The games actually got harder the higher level you were. You were penalised for gaining levels. This was made significantly worse by the awful leveling system in the game, which essentially ensured that the game became unplayable if you picked the skills you used the most as primary skills.

Whenever I read stuff like that i wonder if the one writing it has ever played Morrowind / Oblivion.....

In the earlygame fights are terribly hard, on midlevel it´s balanced and on level 40+ you need to turn the difficulty a lot higher or you are invulnerable and kill 90% of all enemies with a single spell.................

Imo Oblivion needs a lot more levelscaling.

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 avril 2010 - 08:13 .

[Halkus]

Tirigon wrote...

Halkus wrote...


The worst example I can think of is Morrowind/Oblivion. The games actually got harder the higher level you were. You were penalised for gaining levels. This was made significantly worse by the awful leveling system in the game, which essentially ensured that the game became unplayable if you picked the skills you used the most as primary skills.

Whenever I read stuff like that i wonder if the one writing it has ever played Morrowind / Oblivion.....

In the earlygame fights are terribly hard, on midlevel it´s balanced and on level 40+ you need to turn the difficulty a lot higher or you are invulnerable and kill 90% of all enemies with a single spell.................

Imo Oblivion needs a lot more levelscaling.

Going way off topic I guess by talking about them. So hopefully if I explain a little more it'll become clearer.

In Oblivion the main quest is a tiny fraction of the whole game, so they pretty much have to have some kinf of scaling system. If you enter the main quests early you get nothing but scamps, if you enter at a higher level you get tons of the tougher ones. However since your game level doesn't often equate to exactly how powerful you are then by gaining a few levels very quickly, which intuitively you'd think would be a good thing, you find it much tougher. In fact the best thing to do in Oblivion is deliberately not gain levels, but gather up 'power' through alchemy or the like and high end equipment (where you can find the non-leveled stuff). By doing that you make things easier. In fact the easiest way to play it is to pick core skills that you'll never or rarely use, or at least that you can choose not to use. 

However the point of me bringing it up was not to argue the merits or shortfalls of the leveling system in the game (and I fully accept that I ruined my own game experience by playing around the system), I also accept that people may disagree... and their opinion is no less valid than mine, after all they are incredibly popular games...

However...

The point of me mentioning them  was because the leveling system draws your attention very clearly to the leveled monsters and objects in the game. Nobody who had played the game a fair bit could have failed to notice it. And for me since it made the game so impossibly difficult first time around... I ended up cheesing it, and both ways ruined the game for me. The first time around I was too busy wandering around exploring the place, rather than going deep into dungeons and finishing things off... before I knew it I was getting beaten up everywhere because I'd gained levels from walking, jumping or swimming (in morrowind at least).

Compared to that system I believe Bioware have got things right.

[VentoDrown]

Agreed with OP. DA:O is an epitome of how irrelevant character development can be implemented. Though that's not just because of levelscaling of enemies. Also your own char doesn't look very different from e.g. level 12 to lets say level 16. In the good old days of the DnD V2 rules a level 16 mage could nuke 5 level 12 mages in a row -- well, maybe only 4. In DA:O a level 12 mage stands good chances to win over a lv. 16 one.

[Halkus]

In order to be different from D&D Bioware went for a similar but different leveling style. In D&D much more was based on level than DAO. In DAO it's mainly stat based, and as you level you gain more special abilities.



The special abilities however are just added to the ones you already have. For example at level 8 your dual wielding rogue has 4 or 5 differing things he can do. At level 15 he has a few more. Although the later abilities do help a little on the easier to get ones, they don't add a great deal, and the later ones come with a bigger cooldown and bigger stamina cost, so they're not as good.



Additionally because it's all based on stats.... when you add 3 to your strength then it has a much bigger difference when your strength is 15 to start with, rather than when it's 50.



So what happens in DAO is characters taper off in power. Sure there's a massive difference from level 5 to 10. But less difference 10 to 15, and even less 15 to 20....



In D&D when a warrior gains a level he gets more attacks (not every level) and his THAC0 (or whatever they replaced it with) improves. In DAO that's simply replaced by having an attack figure, and a damage figure, both of which are based on the same stat (for warriors at least).



It's even worse for mages, as far as I can see... once you've maxxed out a tree, like cold damage, then you are forced to take talents from a different tree instead, so you add a "1st" level spell.



Healing... there's one spell that every mage gets for that (and a specialisation) and for the most part it's the best spell, it has a short cooldown and it's about as much as a mage would want. By spending one single skill point a mage gets very nice healing. The other healing spells are a poor comparison to it, and cost more mana and have a longer cooldown.



The solution doesn't seem to be staring me in the face either. Other than making things much more level based (which Bioware has clearly decided not to with DAO) then how do you handle the problem of scaling stat increases to mean more at higher levels? To be properly more effective as a mage when you gain a level you should have more than just 3 points to put between your mana pool and your spell power.....



I'm sure there's plenty of solutions, and I could spout out a whole pack of them, but they require significant changes to the game mechanics to go in. Mages would have to for example pick a "school" and as they dropped more points into that school at level up then it would cost less mana/faster cooldown/have more impact. Instead what they get is a spell they can put 4 skill slots into and dump their magic and it's not much different than what a high level character gets.



Anyway, it's entirely unrelated to the level scaling of the monsters, that I feel is reasonably well implemented and an improvement over previous Bioware games. It's a shame they decided to drop the D&D for a system they've made up on the hoof which clearly has balance issues.



I'm not saying D&D is perfect.. if it was then Bioware games wouldn't have to deviate from the core rules, and they wouldn't have to keep releasing new rules editions to fix the problems with the old one...



But when they make Dragon Age 2 they do need to look into things more.