178 réponses à ce sujet

[Svest]

Daeion wrote...

No, the combat system wasn't broken until people decided to break it but using double frictionless materials, until then you still had to wait for weapons to cool down so it had the same effect as ammo clips, ie ME waiting for a weapon to cool down was equal to reloading a weapon.  You really need to get over yourself and thinking you have a right to tell people to go play another game, people paid ther $50-$60 just like you and have the right to voice their opinion.  How do thermal clips make any sense for the future?  Essentially what you are saying is that weapons will not have advanced in the 150+ years from now until when the ME universe takes place.

The problem is you didn't have to run double frictionless to never overheat.  I always ran 1 frictionless and 1 scram rail and still never had to wory about heat.  ME1's system worked fine at low levels.  Once you got Spectre weapons though it was broken.  Even a VII version of them with a single heat sink took way too long to overheat.  It was a pretty decent system for your first playthrough, but after that it fell apart.

Not that thermal clips are perfect, but IMO they make for much better gameplay.  Of course how they are littered all over everywhere is a bit on the silly side.  The thing i don't understand is how much some people seem to hate thermal clips.  Are they really running out of ammo that much?  With the exception of the hand cannon, and the basic starter sniper rifle I've never really had a problem with running out of ammo.

[kregano]

Daeion wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

What I would like to see is a hybrid of the two systems. It makes sense that if you're not going to get in a firefight for a while, or you're plain out of extra clips, you're able to leave it in and allow it to cool by itself. Unless, of course, they overheat to the point where leaving it in would damage the weapon.

Also, environment should affect how long it takes for weapons to cool. In a vacuum, heat is transferred only as radiation, and so should take longer than in a place with an atmosphere. There should also be a difference between very hot and very cold locations.

  

The ME 1 combat system was broke and part of that was the ammo system in it. Bioware fixed it in ME 2. If you do not like ME 2 its real simple go back and play ME 1. Thermal clips work better and are more logical. 

No, the combat system wasn't broken until people decided to break it but using double frictionless materials, until then you still had to wait for weapons to cool down so it had the same effect as ammo clips, ie ME waiting for a weapon to cool down was equal to reloading a weapon.  You really need to get over yourself and thinking you have a right to tell people to go play another game, people paid ther $50-$60 just like you and have the right to voice their opinion.  How do thermal clips make any sense for the future?  Essentially what you are saying is that weapons will not have advanced in the 150+ years from now until when the ME universe takes place.

Of course they advanced. ME forces use mass accelerators, not chemical reactions, to propel rounds down range. Doing that generates a lot more heat than firing a bullet out of a modern gun would and considering how all the heat sink mods never really managed to make a major dent in the heating issue (aside from the utterly broken double Frictionless Matterials X with Snowblind X rounds combo), from a military perspective it's better to dump the sink and insert a new one in order to reduce the amount of time a soldier is out of action. Plus it renders Sabotage utterly useless, since your soldiers can just eject the sink and get back to firing, making it a double win.

[Daeion]

Svest wrote...

Daeion wrote...

No, the combat system wasn't broken until people decided to break it but using double frictionless materials, until then you still had to wait for weapons to cool down so it had the same effect as ammo clips, ie ME waiting for a weapon to cool down was equal to reloading a weapon.  You really need to get over yourself and thinking you have a right to tell people to go play another game, people paid ther $50-$60 just like you and have the right to voice their opinion.  How do thermal clips make any sense for the future?  Essentially what you are saying is that weapons will not have advanced in the 150+ years from now until when the ME universe takes place.

The problem is you didn't have to run double frictionless to never overheat.  I always ran 1 frictionless and 1 scram rail and still never had to wory about heat.  ME1's system worked fine at low levels.  Once you got Spectre weapons though it was broken.  Even a VII version of them with a single heat sink took way too long to overheat.  It was a pretty decent system for your first playthrough, but after that it fell apart.

Not that thermal clips are perfect, but IMO they make for much better gameplay.  Of course how they are littered all over everywhere is a bit on the silly side.  The thing i don't understand is how much some people seem to hate thermal clips.  Are they really running out of ammo that much?  With the exception of the hand cannon, and the basic starter sniper rifle I've never really had a problem with running out of ammo.

I don't realy care about 2nd-3rd play throughs, a game should be balanced around the first playthrough and then others are just kind of icing on the cake imo.  I'm also ok with higher level items making the game easier, to me that's the point of the,  I don't like thermal clips for the simple reason that I don't feel they add anything to the game and I don't think they work properly.  I never had ammo issues in any of my 4 play throughs as the clips are everywhere, so I guess I see it as they might as well have just stuck with infinite ammo but improved the overheat mechanic so that you couldn't prevent overheat to the extent that you could in ME.

[Daeion]

kregano wrote...

Daeion wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

What I would like to see is a hybrid of the two systems. It makes sense that if you're not going to get in a firefight for a while, or you're plain out of extra clips, you're able to leave it in and allow it to cool by itself. Unless, of course, they overheat to the point where leaving it in would damage the weapon.

Also, environment should affect how long it takes for weapons to cool. In a vacuum, heat is transferred only as radiation, and so should take longer than in a place with an atmosphere. There should also be a difference between very hot and very cold locations.

  

The ME 1 combat system was broke and part of that was the ammo system in it. Bioware fixed it in ME 2. If you do not like ME 2 its real simple go back and play ME 1. Thermal clips work better and are more logical. 

No, the combat system wasn't broken until people decided to break it but using double frictionless materials, until then you still had to wait for weapons to cool down so it had the same effect as ammo clips, ie ME waiting for a weapon to cool down was equal to reloading a weapon.  You really need to get over yourself and thinking you have a right to tell people to go play another game, people paid ther $50-$60 just like you and have the right to voice their opinion.  How do thermal clips make any sense for the future?  Essentially what you are saying is that weapons will not have advanced in the 150+ years from now until when the ME universe takes place.

Of course they advanced. ME forces use mass accelerators, not chemical reactions, to propel rounds down range. Doing that generates a lot more heat than firing a bullet out of a modern gun would and considering how all the heat sink mods never really managed to make a major dent in the heating issue (aside from the utterly broken double Frictionless Matterials X with Snowblind X rounds combo), from a military perspective it's better to dump the sink and insert a new one in order to reduce the amount of time a soldier is out of action. Plus it renders Sabotage utterly useless, since your soldiers can just eject the sink and get back to firing, making it a double win.

OK, I'll give you that they've advanced in the delivery of the ammo, but they are still limmited just like we are today and meh, I don't find that fun for the ME universe, I don't like stupid retcons.  I'd be more willing to accept that ammo mods are now actual special ammos that are limited then I am willing to accept the current retcon.  Personally I think the new system makes Sabotage an even greater ability because if your enemy just put in a new clip you can make it pointless and force them to waste more time or if they are down to their last clip they are now defenseless.

[tonnactus]

Svest wrote...


Not that thermal clips are perfect, but IMO they make for much better gameplay.  Of course how they are littered all over everywhere is a bit on the silly side.  The thing i don't understand is how much some people seem to hate thermal clips.  Are they really running out of ammo that much?  With the exception of the hand cannon, and the basic starter sniper rifle I've never really had a problem with running out of ammo.

Its a waste of time to search thermal clips after a fight to be prepared for the next.In a fight,i never run out of it.So what was the point to introduce it?To annoy players??

[Daeion]

justinnstuff wrote...

Daeion wrote...
I don't realy care about 2nd-3rd play throughs, a game should be balanced around the first playthrough and then others are just kind of icing on the cake imo.  I'm also ok with higher level items making the game easier, to me that's the point of the,  I don't like thermal clips for the simple reason that I don't feel they add anything to the game and I don't think they work properly.  I never had ammo issues in any of my 4 play throughs as the clips are everywhere, so I guess I see it as they might as well have just stuck with infinite ammo but improved the overheat mechanic so that you couldn't prevent overheat to the extent that you could in ME.

I had ammo issues once in a blue moon when playing my Infiltrator on insanity. Sometimes the sniper rifle ate too many heatsinks before the insane amount of enemies were gone so it was safe enough to move forward to collect more. I then learned how to use my SMG more effectively.

On my infiltrator playthrough I did HC and I never had ammo issues.  Course this was HC and note insane and I'd already played through on an adept, which was boring as hell, so I was well versed in using the SMG and I only pulled out the sniper when I was sure of a one shot kill.

[kregano]

Daeion wrote...

kregano wrote...

Daeion wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

What I would like to see is a hybrid of the two systems. It makes sense that if you're not going to get in a firefight for a while, or you're plain out of extra clips, you're able to leave it in and allow it to cool by itself. Unless, of course, they overheat to the point where leaving it in would damage the weapon.

Also, environment should affect how long it takes for weapons to cool. In a vacuum, heat is transferred only as radiation, and so should take longer than in a place with an atmosphere. There should also be a difference between very hot and very cold locations.

  

The ME 1 combat system was broke and part of that was the ammo system in it. Bioware fixed it in ME 2. If you do not like ME 2 its real simple go back and play ME 1. Thermal clips work better and are more logical. 

No, the combat system wasn't broken until people decided to break it but using double frictionless materials, until then you still had to wait for weapons to cool down so it had the same effect as ammo clips, ie ME waiting for a weapon to cool down was equal to reloading a weapon.  You really need to get over yourself and thinking you have a right to tell people to go play another game, people paid ther $50-$60 just like you and have the right to voice their opinion.  How do thermal clips make any sense for the future?  Essentially what you are saying is that weapons will not have advanced in the 150+ years from now until when the ME universe takes place.

Of course they advanced. ME forces use mass accelerators, not chemical reactions, to propel rounds down range. Doing that generates a lot more heat than firing a bullet out of a modern gun would and considering how all the heat sink mods never really managed to make a major dent in the heating issue (aside from the utterly broken double Frictionless Matterials X with Snowblind X rounds combo), from a military perspective it's better to dump the sink and insert a new one in order to reduce the amount of time a soldier is out of action. Plus it renders Sabotage utterly useless, since your soldiers can just eject the sink and get back to firing, making it a double win.

OK, I'll give you that they've advanced in the delivery of the ammo, but they are still limmited just like we are today and meh, I don't find that fun for the ME universe, I don't like stupid retcons.  I'd be more willing to accept that ammo mods are now actual special ammos that are limited then I am willing to accept the current retcon.  Personally I think the new system makes Sabotage an even greater ability because if your enemy just put in a new clip you can make it pointless and force them to waste more time or if they are down to their last clip they are now defenseless.

They have like a hundred times the ammo that modern guns have, it's just that you can't hold down the trigger and expend all 4000+ rounds on a single full auto burst. And since mass accelerators are in principle kinda like railguns, I can see the clips being designed to only allow you to fire a certain amount of rounds in order to keep you from eroding the barrel due to friction and to reduce the effects of thermal expansion on the barrel by shunting all the heat into them. Replacing one measily clip is certainly easier than replacing the entire barrel of your LMG after you put an entire clip's worth of rounds into a Geth Prime.

As for Sabotage, the cost/benefit ratio for using it on clip based weapons might not be good enough to justify having people constantly exposing themselves to enemy fire just to make people waste their thermal clips. Besides, who do you think would be the first one to be targeted when the shooting starts? The guy spamming Sabotage.

[Daeion]

kregano wrote...

Daeion wrote...

kregano wrote...

Daeion wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

What I would like to see is a hybrid of the two systems. It makes sense that if you're not going to get in a firefight for a while, or you're plain out of extra clips, you're able to leave it in and allow it to cool by itself. Unless, of course, they overheat to the point where leaving it in would damage the weapon.

Also, environment should affect how long it takes for weapons to cool. In a vacuum, heat is transferred only as radiation, and so should take longer than in a place with an atmosphere. There should also be a difference between very hot and very cold locations.

  

The ME 1 combat system was broke and part of that was the ammo system in it. Bioware fixed it in ME 2. If you do not like ME 2 its real simple go back and play ME 1. Thermal clips work better and are more logical. 

No, the combat system wasn't broken until people decided to break it but using double frictionless materials, until then you still had to wait for weapons to cool down so it had the same effect as ammo clips, ie ME waiting for a weapon to cool down was equal to reloading a weapon.  You really need to get over yourself and thinking you have a right to tell people to go play another game, people paid ther $50-$60 just like you and have the right to voice their opinion.  How do thermal clips make any sense for the future?  Essentially what you are saying is that weapons will not have advanced in the 150+ years from now until when the ME universe takes place.

Of course they advanced. ME forces use mass accelerators, not chemical reactions, to propel rounds down range. Doing that generates a lot more heat than firing a bullet out of a modern gun would and considering how all the heat sink mods never really managed to make a major dent in the heating issue (aside from the utterly broken double Frictionless Matterials X with Snowblind X rounds combo), from a military perspective it's better to dump the sink and insert a new one in order to reduce the amount of time a soldier is out of action. Plus it renders Sabotage utterly useless, since your soldiers can just eject the sink and get back to firing, making it a double win.

OK, I'll give you that they've advanced in the delivery of the ammo, but they are still limmited just like we are today and meh, I don't find that fun for the ME universe, I don't like stupid retcons.  I'd be more willing to accept that ammo mods are now actual special ammos that are limited then I am willing to accept the current retcon.  Personally I think the new system makes Sabotage an even greater ability because if your enemy just put in a new clip you can make it pointless and force them to waste more time or if they are down to their last clip they are now defenseless.

They have like a hundred times the ammo that modern guns have, it's just that you can't hold down the trigger and expend all 4000+ rounds on a single full auto burst. And since mass accelerators are in principle kinda like railguns, I can see the clips being designed to only allow you to fire a certain amount of rounds in order to keep you from eroding the barrel due to friction and to reduce the effects of thermal expansion on the barrel by shunting all the heat into them. Replacing one measily clip is certainly easier than replacing the entire barrel of your LMG after you put an entire clip's worth of rounds into a Geth Prime.

As for Sabotage, the cost/benefit ratio for using it on clip based weapons might not be good enough to justify having people constantly exposing themselves to enemy fire just to make people waste their thermal clips. Besides, who do you think would be the first one to be targeted when the shooting starts? The guy spamming Sabotage.

I might have 4000 rounds but I'm still limited by the number of thermal clips I can carry which apparently is fairly small.  There's always going to be a first person that's targeted, the only way to get away from that is to only have one class.

[Bartlebyfinch]

Just forget realism if you're going to compare the ammo systems in ME1 & ME2. In terms of realism, ME1 wins hands-down.



In ME1, due to Mass Accelerator tech, ammo was no longer a concern, just overheating. You only had overheating issues on any weapon after continuously firing it without taking a few seconds to let it cool - believable. You could install a number of different mods on your weapons to improve cooling or increase damage output at the expense of cooling - believable. Any weapon mods that you purchased, picked up, or otherwise acquired were usable by your entire crew - absolutely believable.



In ME2, you use generic ejectable heatsinks that are both physically picked up in a fixed quantity and exist as an unfixed variable quantity simultaneously. You see the heatsinks around and pick them up, but you have a variable number of them in your inventory. You can fire your heavy pistol empty 4 times and be out of ammo after using your THREE REPLACEMENT HEATSINKS. Or you can fire one shot from it and put in a fresh heatsink TWENTY FOUR TIMES. The entire idea is ludicrous if you think about it. And seriously... if that isn't unrealistic enough for you, think about "ammo powers." Yes... being able to hit the selector switch on your weapon that switches from regular ammo to disruptor or incendary is certainly a learned skill that should require just as much in terms of training as controlling biotic fields. Yep. Granted, you can make a case for Warp ammo, but the other ammo types being powers is just silly.



Okay... here's the kicker. I don't care that it's less realistic. I like the ammo system in ME2 better anyway. Yes, it's annoying to run out of sniper rifle ammo when you're playing an infiltrator since that's how you're SUPPOSED to kill people. Still, I like it better than the ME1 system which didn't create any kind of sense of urgency. It's true that you don't HAVE to abuse a system just because it can be abused, but come on... most people did. It isn't even like the "eternal shooting" mods were the only ones that broke the system. I know just as many people who preferred to convert shotguns into single-shot room-clearing blasters of death.



Ammo powers are the same way. They are unrealistic as hell, but by assigning them to different characters, you create a more dynamic party. In a game with 12 team members, it's hard as hell to make each of them unique... particularly with a system as "streamlined" as ME2's.



I'm not saying that ME2 is a better game than ME1, but for the vision that the game makers were pursuing, I DO think that they did a better job of implementing things this time around. I'll gladly sacrifice bits and pieces of realism if it makes for a better-balanced, and better-functioning game.

[TLK Spires]

CodyMelch wrote...

Instead of going around looking for ammo on the battle field or using upgrades that slow the cooling rate on the guns down to a ridiculous rate(it has to end sometime)the guns should have a built-in water-cooling system that can flush the weapon with coolant in order to
bring it down to safe levels should the guns overheat. Like in Gears of War 2 when using thew chain gun for example. Of course while doing this the gun can't fire so in the end you would still have infinite ammo while having to reload every now and then.

This would leave room for "realistic" gun fights as well as compromise for those who want the "infinite" ammo system from ME1 and for those who liked the thermal clip system from ME2.

Anyone else agree with this? Post your thoughts everyone.

that's exactly like it was in the first mass effect.

[Kayback]

SmokePants wrote...

Ammo capacity is an intrinsic part of combat balance. The Viper gets 60 rounds (and high rate of fire), because it has weak damage per shot compared to the Widow. But what good is capacity when you have infinite ammo or regenerating ammo?

Something that was solved quite happily with the weapon cool down times. You still had the choice of having rapid fire low  damage weapons and single shot high damage weapons.

Look, most players don't know what's good for them.

I know perfectly well what is good for me, buying a number two in a series that I like, liking it based on the number one experience.

They won't be aggressive, use a variety of weapons, or feel a sense of reward for managing their pool of finite resources efficiently.

WHAT? I don't get a sense of reward for managing my pool of resources, I get annoyed as all heck that my previous infinite ammo has been replaced with a game of "hunt the clip". I also don't WANT to be agressive. That's why I picked the Infiltrator. You know, the sort of guys who sneak and hide, not run and gun. That would be a Soldier or Vanguard build. I chose it because of the long range weapon, with the pistol for the close in work. I had to unlock the assault rifle in ME2 so I could have more shooty for when I DO run out of ammo.

They'll just sit and shoot and sit and shoot -- like zombies -- and they'll either become numb to the tedium or they'll curse the game for making them do it, but they'll continue to do it, because it's the easiest way.

Where did THIS come from? You know how everyone will react to something? You should go into marketing. Besides, I happen to be a SNIPER, I WANT to sit and shoot. Better to be a zombie than a chicken looking scratching for feed. Incidently, I shot some looters for stealing property from dead people. Probably with a thermal clip I looted from a dead guy......

Infinite ammo does have its uses in other types of games, but for what ME is trying to be, I think it's clear that strictly finite ammo is the superior choice.

ME2 is trying to be the follow on from ME1, a game most of us liked, which is why be purchased ME2. Some of us enjoyed the way ME1 played.

[SmokePants]

I'm not going to spend much more time arguing this point. But it seems like half the problem people have with the current system isn't with the gameplay, but the internal logic of the fiction.

Face it, if they had it to do all over again, they never would have established the whole thermal/ammo block technology. It was a mistake. They realized they needed ammo and now there's ammo. That's not going to change.

If you can't understand why the change was made, then you can't really think like the people who are making the game. And if you can't think like them, you can't appeal to their sensibilities. Thus, you will never be able to convince them to change it back. And I don't have to spend time in this thread arguing, because the developers are going to continue to do what I'm arguing for anyway.

[Kayback]

Daeion wrote...

 I'm also ok with higher level items making the game easier, to me that's the point of the, 

I don't understand why so many games let you upgrade your weapons, but then upgrade the badguys as well, so they take exactly the same number of hits to put down on level 29 as they did on level 1.

I liked the fact that my weapons got stronger, my add one got more powerful and my ammo choices got better. Add to that "when you got Spectre guns" , well they are Spectres, and are meant to be the best of the best.

KBK

[Daeion]

Bartlebyfinch wrote...

Just forget realism if you're going to compare the ammo systems in ME1 & ME2. In terms of realism, ME1 wins hands-down.

In ME1, due to Mass Accelerator tech, ammo was no longer a concern, just overheating. You only had overheating issues on any weapon after continuously firing it without taking a few seconds to let it cool - believable. You could install a number of different mods on your weapons to improve cooling or increase damage output at the expense of cooling - believable. Any weapon mods that you purchased, picked up, or otherwise acquired were usable by your entire crew - absolutely believable.

In ME2, you use generic ejectable heatsinks that are both physically picked up in a fixed quantity and exist as an unfixed variable quantity simultaneously. You see the heatsinks around and pick them up, but you have a variable number of them in your inventory. You can fire your heavy pistol empty 4 times and be out of ammo after using your THREE REPLACEMENT HEATSINKS. Or you can fire one shot from it and put in a fresh heatsink TWENTY FOUR TIMES. The entire idea is ludicrous if you think about it. And seriously... if that isn't unrealistic enough for you, think about "ammo powers." Yes... being able to hit the selector switch on your weapon that switches from regular ammo to disruptor or incendary is certainly a learned skill that should require just as much in terms of training as controlling biotic fields. Yep. Granted, you can make a case for Warp ammo, but the other ammo types being powers is just silly.

Okay... here's the kicker. I don't care that it's less realistic. I like the ammo system in ME2 better anyway. Yes, it's annoying to run out of sniper rifle ammo when you're playing an infiltrator since that's how you're SUPPOSED to kill people. Still, I like it better than the ME1 system which didn't create any kind of sense of urgency. It's true that you don't HAVE to abuse a system just because it can be abused, but come on... most people did. It isn't even like the "eternal shooting" mods were the only ones that broke the system. I know just as many people who preferred to convert shotguns into single-shot room-clearing blasters of death.

Ammo powers are the same way. They are unrealistic as hell, but by assigning them to different characters, you create a more dynamic party. In a game with 12 team members, it's hard as hell to make each of them unique... particularly with a system as "streamlined" as ME2's.

I'm not saying that ME2 is a better game than ME1, but for the vision that the game makers were pursuing, I DO think that they did a better job of implementing things this time around. I'll gladly sacrifice bits and pieces of realism if it makes for a better-balanced, and better-functioning game.

I guess I don't see how they created any sense of urgency in ME2 because ammo was everywhere.  I never found my self going oh crap, I'm down to just my pistol and I only have 1 clip left.  Ammo powers is probably one of the things that pisses me off more then anything.  BW is telling me that my adept forgot how to use ammo mods but learned how to use a nuke gun while being dead and at the same time is punishing me for playing the soldier by taking up 3 ability slots with ammos.

[Daeion]

SmokePants wrote...

I'm not going to spend much more time arguing this point. But it seems like half the problem people have with the current system isn't with the gameplay, but the internal logic of the fiction.

Face it, if they had it to do all over again, they never would have established the whole thermal/ammo block technology. It was a mistake. They realized they needed ammo and now there's ammo. That's not going to change.

If you can't understand why the change was made, then you can't really think like the people who are making the game. And if you can't think like them, you can't appeal to their sensibilities. Thus, you will never be able to convince them to change it back. And I don't have to spend time in this thread arguing, because the developers are going to continue to do what I'm arguing for anyway.

The change was made because people cried so much about the first game instead of just enjoying it.  Like most changes BW went to far instead of finding a happy middle ground that would appease both sides.

[Daeion]

Kayback wrote...

Daeion wrote...

 I'm also ok with higher level items making the game easier, to me that's the point of the, 

I don't understand why so many games let you upgrade your weapons, but then upgrade the badguys as well, so they take exactly the same number of hits to put down on level 29 as they did on level 1.

I liked the fact that my weapons got stronger, my add one got more powerful and my ammo choices got better. Add to that "when you got Spectre guns" , well they are Spectres, and are meant to be the best of the best.

KBK

Yeah apparently the fact that you are an elite soldier is a valid arguement for why their shouldn't be weapon skills but not a valid arguement for having elite items.

[Svest]

Daeion wrote...

I don't realy care about 2nd-3rd play throughs, a game should be balanced around the first playthrough and then others are just kind of icing on the cake imo.  I'm also ok with higher level items making the game easier, to me that's the point of the,  I don't like thermal clips for the simple reason that I don't feel they add anything to the game and I don't think they work properly.  I never had ammo issues in any of my 4 play throughs as the clips are everywhere, so I guess I see it as they might as well have just stuck with infinite ammo but improved the overheat mechanic so that you couldn't prevent overheat to the extent that you could in ME.

The problem is a game needs replayability if it wants to sell, especially a single player game.  It needs to be fun and challenging at all levels, not just the first third of them.  Just because you don't care about anything but the first play through doesn't mean there aren't tons of people out there that do.

I guess my question is if you never had ammo problems why is it a big deal?  Why complain about it when it doesn't hurt you, but it makes the game better for others?

[Daeion]

Svest wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I don't realy care about 2nd-3rd play throughs, a game should be balanced around the first playthrough and then others are just kind of icing on the cake imo.  I'm also ok with higher level items making the game easier, to me that's the point of the,  I don't like thermal clips for the simple reason that I don't feel they add anything to the game and I don't think they work properly.  I never had ammo issues in any of my 4 play throughs as the clips are everywhere, so I guess I see it as they might as well have just stuck with infinite ammo but improved the overheat mechanic so that you couldn't prevent overheat to the extent that you could in ME.

The problem is a game needs replayability if it wants to sell, especially a single player game.  It needs to be fun and challenging at all levels, not just the first third of them.  Just because you don't care about anything but the first play through doesn't mean there aren't tons of people out there that do.

I guess my question is if you never had ammo problems why is it a big deal?  Why complain about it when it doesn't hurt you, but it makes the game better for others?

What's the replayability in ME2?  I'm not talking about playing through on another char, I'm talking about playing the exact same char.  There's no new items to find, there's no extra hidden spots to find, and the enemies aren't any harder.  In ME I had a reason to play the same char through 2-3 times because I could keep leveling and there were new items to find that made me more powerful in those higher levels, that system doesn't exist in ME2. 

Mechanics wise it doesn't hurt me, lore and story wise it hurts me because I don't feel it fits the universe and don't think it makes sense.

Modifié par Daeion, 03 mars 2010 - 10:44 .

[ExtremeOne]

Fjordgnu wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

What I would like to see is a hybrid of the two systems. It makes sense that if you're not going to get in a firefight for a while, or you're plain out of extra clips, you're able to leave it in and allow it to cool by itself. Unless, of course, they overheat to the point where leaving it in would damage the weapon.

Also, environment should affect how long it takes for weapons to cool. In a vacuum, heat is transferred only as radiation, and so should take longer than in a place with an atmosphere. There should also be a difference between very hot and very cold locations.

  



The ME 1 combat system was broke and part of that was the ammo system in it. Bioware fixed it in ME 2. If you do not like ME 2 its real simple go back and play ME 1. Thermal clips work better and are more logical. 

I think you missed my point entirely. I like thermal clips, and it makes sense from a physics perspective, but so does having them cool down over time - basically for ammo to slowly regenerate when you're not shooting. It might be cheap from a gameplay perspective, but you're the one who brought up logic.

  


ammo is not the same as some biotic power and plus there should be no cool down at all in the game. I mean the ammo in the game is logical. the one from ME 1 was not logical at all . It is cheap to use the stupid cool down crap on ammo as well.  

[Daeion]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

What I would like to see is a hybrid of the two systems. It makes sense that if you're not going to get in a firefight for a while, or you're plain out of extra clips, you're able to leave it in and allow it to cool by itself. Unless, of course, they overheat to the point where leaving it in would damage the weapon.

Also, environment should affect how long it takes for weapons to cool. In a vacuum, heat is transferred only as radiation, and so should take longer than in a place with an atmosphere. There should also be a difference between very hot and very cold locations.

  



The ME 1 combat system was broke and part of that was the ammo system in it. Bioware fixed it in ME 2. If you do not like ME 2 its real simple go back and play ME 1. Thermal clips work better and are more logical. 

I think you missed my point entirely. I like thermal clips, and it makes sense from a physics perspective, but so does having them cool down over time - basically for ammo to slowly regenerate when you're not shooting. It might be cheap from a gameplay perspective, but you're the one who brought up logic.

  


ammo is not the same as some biotic power and plus there should be no cool down at all in the game. I mean the ammo in the game is logical. the one from ME 1 was not logical at all . It is cheap to use the stupid cool down crap on ammo as well.  

It's the freaking future and we are flying around with FTL drives and jumping across the galaxy in a matter of seconds all while trying to keep a race of sentient machines from eating us and you want to talk about what's logical?  And I still fail to see how the ammo system in ME wasn't logical.

Modifié par Daeion, 03 mars 2010 - 11:03 .

[WillieStyle]

CodyMelch wrote...

This would leave room for "realistic" gun fights as well as compromise for those who want the "infinite" ammo system from ME1 and for those who liked the thermal clip system from ME2.

One group wants infinite ammo.  One group doesn't.
Your proposal: infinite ammo.
This is not a compromise.

[Daeion]

WillieStyle wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

This would leave room for "realistic" gun fights as well as compromise for those who want the "infinite" ammo system from ME1 and for those who liked the thermal clip system from ME2.

One group wants infinite ammo.  One group doesn't.
Your proposal: infinite ammo.
This is not a compromise.

I think the point they are trying to make is that you still need clips for during combat but outside of combat you can regen a few shots.

[Cody]

no its not. What I mean is that yea to have "infinite ammo" like in ME1 with the overheat system. But instead of having to change thermal clips you eject the thermal system in the gun so it can cool off much quicker. It would take the same amount of time it does to reload in me2 but now you have infinite ammo..just make it cool off a heck of a lot faster. It is a compromise because either way your going to have to go back into cover and stop shooting in order to do this.



to really understand what i am trying to say go on youtube and look up old gameplay videos of mass effect 2. They had the system I was talking about but changed it. Also look up some Gears of War 2 videos when someone is using the Chain gun. Or click here http://gearsofwar.wi...wiki/Chain_Gun.

[Vaenier]

I wanted to be a sniper, but with only 10 shots, i was constantly forced to use pistols, then when those ran out, smg's till everything died... Completely killed the combat style i wanted to do.

Infinite thermal clips is a great idea. And would make more sense than the complete introduction of an ammo system to the entire galaxy in two years with no sign of the previous heat sinks...