178 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

The system we have now is fine, it doesn't need to be altered for ME3.

[Marstead]

My only issue with heatsinks is that the gun still has its infinite ammo block when you run out of them. From early press I was under the impression you could tactically use the heatsinks as "ammo" to avoid an overheat, but if you ran out of sinks, the gun would work exactly like an ME1 gun.



This is the way it should work, less the upgrades that let you fire indefinitely.

[Akrylik]

combine both ME1 and 2's ammo system, i.e. when a gun gets hot enough, Shep can discharge it and put in another one, or just wait for the gun to slowly cool down on its own. Makes alot more sense seeing as there is no reason why a gun would just encase a set amount of heat and leave it like that.

[Chaplin_M]

never mind i just typed this on page 1,... what Akrylik said

Modifié par Chaplin_M, 04 mars 2010 - 02:51 .

[Malysoun]

Thanks to heat sinks and kinetic barriers that stop based on impact force, it was discovered that slower moving projectiles could bypass shields. Therefore in ME3 we'll be using bows and arrows.

[bbfan13]

Wow, I am way out in left field compared to everyone else. I didn't think they went far enough. I would actually like to see the ammo really be finite. I mean you get x number of shots per mission. You have what you carry in with you. Run out of ammo, you spam your powers. I would like to health system to go back to what it was too. No more regenerating health. The health should be the safety measure that you get after your shields drop. Shields can regenerate but health should come back using medi-gel only after the combat is done. Obviously, I am in a very small minority here.

[Daeion]

marshalleck wrote...

The system we have now is fine, it doesn't need to be altered for ME3.

I disagree, course they'd have to come up with another stupid retcon to fix the issue so either way I probably wouldn't be happy.

[Daeion]

Malysoun wrote...

Thanks to heat sinks and kinetic barriers that stop based on impact force, it was discovered that slower moving projectiles could bypass shields. Therefore in ME3 we'll be using bows and arrows.

reminds me of stargate

[Daeion]

bbfan13 wrote...

Wow, I am way out in left field compared to everyone else. I didn't think they went far enough. I would actually like to see the ammo really be finite. I mean you get x number of shots per mission. You have what you carry in with you. Run out of ammo, you spam your powers. I would like to health system to go back to what it was too. No more regenerating health. The health should be the safety measure that you get after your shields drop. Shields can regenerate but health should come back using medi-gel only after the combat is done. Obviously, I am in a very small minority here.

Except soldiers don't really have dmg powers so they'd be sitting there doing nothing and hoping their squadies killed the enemy.

[bbfan13]

Daeion wrote...

bbfan13 wrote...

Wow, I am way out in left field compared to everyone else. I didn't think they went far enough. I would actually like to see the ammo really be finite. I mean you get x number of shots per mission. You have what you carry in with you. Run out of ammo, you spam your powers. I would like to health system to go back to what it was too. No more regenerating health. The health should be the safety measure that you get after your shields drop. Shields can regenerate but health should come back using medi-gel only after the combat is done. Obviously, I am in a very small minority here.

Except soldiers don't really have dmg powers so they'd be sitting there doing nothing and hoping their squadies killed the enemy.

I don't think concussive shot uses ammo.  Obviously, with my system, you need to balance the enemies accordingly.

[Akeashar]

My issue was that some of the weapons had stupidly low amounts of shot per clip. Specifically the hand cannon. I play an infiltrator, and while having limited shots was annoying, I'd swap to either of my other two weapons easily enough. I don't think I ever actually ran out of ammo, although I came dreadfully close once or twice (at which point the BW line is 'Use your damaging powers until you pick up more') but I quickly learnt to let my squad do a lot of the work so I could conserve my shots.

[Malysoun]

Daeion wrote...

Malysoun wrote...

Thanks to heat sinks and kinetic barriers that stop based on impact force, it was discovered that slower moving projectiles could bypass shields. Therefore in ME3 we'll be using bows and arrows.

reminds me of stargate

The episode witht he Nox where they were trying to capture Apophis. Yes, that was what I was referring to.

[Mallissin]

Alright, I agree with some of the points from both sides of the argument and want to propose a compromise. Let me pose to you a scenario:

Begin.

After several years of lawsuits against weapons makers from burns during thermal clip reloads and the fall of Omni-corp after the failure of their omni-gel product (also from lawsuits regarding misused of their product), a new company buys the rights to omni-gel and designs a type of thermal clip that can make use of it. They create a system where heat produced by firing the weapon is absorbed by the omni-gel in the thermal clip and forms into the next round to be fired. Their first units sell out in several days, as they are easily installed into the current thermal clip technology and there was an abundance of left-over omni-gel on the markets.

When a weapon overheats using the new technology, the user can wait for the weapon to slowly cool off or flush the thermal clip with omni-gel to cool it off instantly, causing a spray of glowing tiny spheres to fly out of the gun's muzzle.  Omni-gel itself can be recovered from enemy weapons or omni-tools on the battlefield or bought at vendors.

Since the fall of Omni-corp, most omni-gel refining technology was scrapped since so much of the product remained unused and other commodity prices rose after the Geth attack on the Citadel. As the first reserves of omni-gel started to dwindle, the cost of omni-gel began to rise high enough that many corporations began to research ways to resurrect the production technology. Many of the original production secrets died when several of the original Omni-corp inventors committed suicide out of embarassment during the bankruptcy, and later attempts were never quite able to generate the same quality of gel.

After the cost of omni-gel stabilized and manufacturing capabilities resumed, weapons makers began to design new guns around the new concept, leading to several heavy weapons and shield units capable of using the gel as a fuel. The Council eventually commissioned a Volus company to design a small enough refinery system to be installed on large ships.

End.

What's this mean? We get the overheat bar back or something like it, but can reduce overheating to zero by "reloading" the clip with cool omni-gel which also becomes the galaxy's source of ammo for most guns.

We also get back omni-gel for use with our omni-tools but won't be necessarily able to create it like ME1 without an expensive ship upgrade, so we'll most likely rely on scavenging or purchasing during the beginning of the game.

Modifié par Mallissin, 04 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[Daeion]

bbfan13 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

bbfan13 wrote...

Wow, I am way out in left field compared to everyone else. I didn't think they went far enough. I would actually like to see the ammo really be finite. I mean you get x number of shots per mission. You have what you carry in with you. Run out of ammo, you spam your powers. I would like to health system to go back to what it was too. No more regenerating health. The health should be the safety measure that you get after your shields drop. Shields can regenerate but health should come back using medi-gel only after the combat is done. Obviously, I am in a very small minority here.

Except soldiers don't really have dmg powers so they'd be sitting there doing nothing and hoping their squadies killed the enemy.

I don't think concussive shot uses ammo.  Obviously, with my system, you need to balance the enemies accordingly.

Which makes no sense to me, but I never take it because I find it to be boring as all hell but even still, then a soldier is sitting there waiting on the CD of concussive shot, I thought one of the reasons BW implimented these changes was to speed up combat or something like that?

[That One Display Name]

Malysoun wrote...

Thanks to heat sinks and kinetic barriers that stop based on impact force, it was discovered that slower moving projectiles could bypass shields. Therefore in ME3 we'll be using bows and arrows.

haha win!

[That One Display Name]

Mallissin wrote...

Alright, I agree with some of the points from both sides of the argument and want to propose a compromise. Let me pose to you a scenario:

Begin.

After several years of lawsuits against weapons makers from burns during thermal clip reloads and the fall of Omni-corp after the failure of their omni-gel product (also from lawsuits regarding misused of their product), a new company buys the rights to omni-gel and designs a type of thermal clip that can make use of it. They create a system where heat produced by firing the weapon is absorbed by the omni-gel in the thermal clip and forms into the next round to be fired. Their first units sell out in several days, as they are easily installed into the current thermal clip technology and there was an abundance of left-over omni-gel on the markets.

When a weapon overheats using the new technology, the user can wait for the weapon to slowly cool off or flush the thermal clip with omni-gel to cool it off instantly, causing a spray of glowing tiny spheres to fly out of the gun's muzzle.  Omni-gel itself can be recovered from enemy weapons or omni-tools on the battlefield or bought at vendors.

Since the fall of Omni-corp, most omni-gel refining technology was scrapped since so much of the product remained unused and other commodity prices rose after the Geth attack on the Citadel. As the first reserves of omni-gel started to dwindle, the cost of omni-gel began to rise high enough that many corporations began to research ways to resurrect the production technology. Many of the original production secrets died when several of the original Omni-corp inventors committed suicide out of embarassment during the bankruptcy, and later attempts were never quite able to generate the same quality of gel.

After the cost of omni-gel stabilized and manufacturing capabilities resumed, weapons makers began to design new guns around the new concept, leading to several heavy weapons and shield units capable of using the gel as a fuel. The Council eventually commissioned a Volus company to design a small enough refinery system to be installed on large ships.

End.

What's this mean? We get the overheat bar back or something like it, but can reduce overheating to zero by "reloading" the clip with cool omni-gel which also becomes the galaxy's source of ammo for most guns.

We also get back omni-gel for use with our omni-tools but won't be necessarily able to create it like ME1 without an expensive ship upgrade, so we'll most likely rely on scavenging or purchasing during the beginning of the game.

I like this idea, or at least something along the lines.

In other words, I don't care how they choose to explain it, but I like the idea of having limited instant cooldowns (reloads) but still being able to fall back on a passive cooling system of the overheat bar should I run out of the "reloads"

Either that or fix the whole thermal clip thing.
Why is it that I have these supposed universal thermal clips, but I can be entirely unable to fire my pistol or sniper while having nearly a thousand rounds left of my smg?
The distribution of ammo forced me to pretty much run through the game using an smg.

Modifié par That One Display Name, 04 mars 2010 - 07:12 .

[That One Display Name]

Marstead wrote...

My only issue with heatsinks is that the gun still has its infinite ammo block when you run out of them. From early press I was under the impression you could tactically use the heatsinks as "ammo" to avoid an overheat, but if you ran out of sinks, the gun would work exactly like an ME1 gun.

This is the way it should work, less the upgrades that let you fire indefinitely.

Agreed. I thought the same thing
which is in essence the idea of a hybrid between ME1 and ME2's system that a lot of us want.

[tsd16]

SmokePants wrote...

Ammo capacity is an intrinsic part of combat balance. The Viper gets 60 rounds (and high rate of fire), because it has weak damage per shot compared to the Widow. But what good is capacity when you have infinite ammo or regenerating ammo?

Look, most players don't know what's good for them. If a game regenerates 1 bullet every 10 seconds, a lot of players will just sit and wait for that round to chamber, pop-up, shoot, and wait again. They won't be aggressive, use a variety of weapons, or feel a sense of reward for managing their pool of finite resources efficiently. They'll just sit and shoot and sit and shoot -- like zombies -- and they'll either become numb to the tedium or they'll curse the game for making them do it, but they'll continue to do it, because it's the easiest way.

Infinite ammo does have its uses in other types of games, but for what ME is trying to be, I think it's clear that strictly finite ammo is the superior choice.

Exactly people fail to realize the limited ammo actually impacts certain weapons.  If it didnt have  only 13 shots before I need to grab clips, why on earth would I ever select another sniper rifle other than the widow? Bolt action vs automatic is hardly an argument,  as the only drawback the widow has isnt the single shot, its the limited ammo.

It makes sense if certain weapons were NEVER affected by ammo availability, but some are, especially SR's.

I think people are just so resistant to having this game resemble a shooter in any way.  Your characters shoot guns and the combat is hardly similar to your mainstream shooters like battlefield or Modern warfare, hell having to reload is probably the only thing thats similar.  If I was to compare the combat to any shooters Ive played, the only one I can compare it to was brothers in arms, which I found far more fun than any shooter ive ever played, it used real battlefield tactics as opposed to the run and gun im practically invincible style of most shooters.

My point is, the ammo is fine as is, I dont see what the big deal is, especially when the OP's claim is "nothing will change" if nothing will change then why bother? Obviously there is a reason? Like wanting unlimited ammo on the widow.

[WillieStyle]

Vaenier wrote...

I wanted to be a sniper, but with only 10 shots, i was constantly forced to use pistols,

You're doing it wrong.

Infinite thermal clips is a great idea. And would make more sense than the complete introduction of an ammo system to the entire galaxy in two years with no sign of the previous heat sinks...

These threads essentially amount to polls wherein we tell Bioware what we as players want.
In that spirit, I'd like to tell Bioware, please for the love of the flying spagghetti monster, do not go back to inifinite ammo in ME3.  ME2 combat is FAR better, and finite ammo is a big part of this.

[Pauravi]

No, leave the clips alone.

When I first played ME1 I thought having infinite ammo was cool, too, until I realized that it made gunfights a lot more boring and easy. People are arguing this from a realism/technology perspective, which misses the point; it is completely and totally irrelevant. They did this to make gunfights more exciting and to reward skill. It does both of those things, and does them well.

[Netzach]

marshalleck wrote...

The system we have now is fine, it doesn't need to be altered for ME3.

plus one.

[Pauravi]

Daeion wrote...

The change was made because people cried so much about the first game instead of just enjoying it.  Like most changes BW went to far instead of finding a happy middle ground that would appease both sides.

I didn't cry about the first game.  I just didn't realize how much it sucked until ME2 came out.

Actually come to think of it, I always did think that the combat in ME1 was way too easy, and that a big part of that was the infinite ammo.  It almost felt like a cheat.

Modifié par Pauravi, 04 mars 2010 - 12:50 .

[smudboy]

Pauravi wrote...

Daeion wrote...

The change was made because people cried so much about the first game instead of just enjoying it.  Like most changes BW went to far instead of finding a happy middle ground that would appease both sides.

I didn't cry about the first game.  I just didn't realize how much it sucked until ME2 came out.

Actually come to think of it, I always did think that the combat in ME1 was way too easy, and that a big part of that was the infinite ammo.  It almost felt like a cheat.

Regardless of opinions on the ammo system, I feel the guns in ME universe suck.

Recoil is ridiculous on AR and SMG weapons.  Nevermind that Shepard is a cybernetic-augment, and is the only human that can handle the Widow.  And that we're 150 years in the future and retconned an unlimited ammo system with a Geth codex entry.

Weapon modding was a great mechanic and storytelling device.  It was essentially the Diablo socketed system in space.  It got replaced with Soldier ammotype "skills", wtf that means.  Now if certain guns allowed for different ammo types, that'd be great.  But that doesn't make sense with them being skills.  What skill do you need to press a button on a gun?  It's like Judge Dredd for the stupid.

[Daeion]

Mallissin wrote...

Alright, I agree with some of the points from both sides of the argument and want to propose a compromise. Let me pose to you a scenario:

Begin.

After several years of lawsuits against weapons makers from burns during thermal clip reloads and the fall of Omni-corp after the failure of their omni-gel product (also from lawsuits regarding misused of their product), a new company buys the rights to omni-gel and designs a type of thermal clip that can make use of it. They create a system where heat produced by firing the weapon is absorbed by the omni-gel in the thermal clip and forms into the next round to be fired. Their first units sell out in several days, as they are easily installed into the current thermal clip technology and there was an abundance of left-over omni-gel on the markets.

When a weapon overheats using the new technology, the user can wait for the weapon to slowly cool off or flush the thermal clip with omni-gel to cool it off instantly, causing a spray of glowing tiny spheres to fly out of the gun's muzzle.  Omni-gel itself can be recovered from enemy weapons or omni-tools on the battlefield or bought at vendors.

Since the fall of Omni-corp, most omni-gel refining technology was scrapped since so much of the product remained unused and other commodity prices rose after the Geth attack on the Citadel. As the first reserves of omni-gel started to dwindle, the cost of omni-gel began to rise high enough that many corporations began to research ways to resurrect the production technology. Many of the original production secrets died when several of the original Omni-corp inventors committed suicide out of embarassment during the bankruptcy, and later attempts were never quite able to generate the same quality of gel.

After the cost of omni-gel stabilized and manufacturing capabilities resumed, weapons makers began to design new guns around the new concept, leading to several heavy weapons and shield units capable of using the gel as a fuel. The Council eventually commissioned a Volus company to design a small enough refinery system to be installed on large ships.

End.

What's this mean? We get the overheat bar back or something like it, but can reduce overheating to zero by "reloading" the clip with cool omni-gel which also becomes the galaxy's source of ammo for most guns.

We also get back omni-gel for use with our omni-tools but won't be necessarily able to create it like ME1 without an expensive ship upgrade, so we'll most likely rely on scavenging or purchasing during the beginning of the game.

Works for me but then again I'm willing to comprommise unlike a lot of other people.

[Raptr569]

I personally think a hybrid system of ME1 and ME2 would be the best.

Guns can cool down like they did in ME1 but it takes a bit longer however you can eject the heat sink for a new one (providing you have some with you) so you can quickly get back into the fight like in ME2.