178 réponses à ce sujet

[Mlow44]

on normal/veteran mode ammo isn't much of a concern. hardcore/insanity are supposed to challenge you. it's part of the strategy to plan out which enemies you're going to kill with which guns, in order to increase killing effectiveness and save ammo. makes you use your biotics/tech skills more (i don't think i even really discovered biotics in the first game until my fourth playthrough). it's just a matter of practicing to get used to doing this. if you don't want to have to deal with low ammo, play on Normal. Insanity was designed for people who were willing to work on their gameplay if they weren't intuitively good at it. I died plenty of times my first playthroughs due to running out of ammo. but once i started playing smart it just didn't become an issue nearly as often (i still get a little carried away spraying the Tempest SMG sometimes). I for one enjoy what the new thermal clips brought to the gameplay in Mass Effect 2, and hope they keep it in the third

[Daeion]

tsd16 wrote...
Exactly people fail to realize the limited ammo actually impacts certain weapons.  If it didnt have  only 13 shots before I need to grab clips, why on earth would I ever select another sniper rifle other than the widow? Bolt action vs automatic is hardly an argument,  as the only drawback the widow has isnt the single shot, its the limited ammo.

It makes sense if certain weapons were NEVER affected by ammo availability, but some are, especially SR's.

I think people are just so resistant to having this game resemble a shooter in any way.  Your characters shoot guns and the combat is hardly similar to your mainstream shooters like battlefield or Modern warfare, hell having to reload is probably the only thing thats similar.  If I was to compare the combat to any shooters Ive played, the only one I can compare it to was brothers in arms, which I found far more fun than any shooter ive ever played, it used real battlefield tactics as opposed to the run and gun im practically invincible style of most shooters.

My point is, the ammo is fine as is, I dont see what the big deal is, especially when the OP's claim is "nothing will change" if nothing will change then why bother? Obviously there is a reason? Like wanting unlimited ammo on the widow.

You'd use a different sniper rifle for a different situations.  If you are an infiltrator there's no reason you should be using anything but the widow since the whole point of the class going for one shot kills with the rifle.  Conversly, a soldier would go with the viper because #1 they typically aren't going to be taking the widow, and #2 the soldier isn't worried about trying to 1 shot kill like the infiltrator is.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Viper be considered smei-automatic, not automatic?

Ammo might as well be infinite because it's laying around everywhere and we are always getting it droped so unless someone is increadibly bad, ammo is never going to be an issue, unlike in Halo where I was always droping weapons and picking up new ones.

Maybe people don't want it resembeling a shooter because they aren't playing a shooter and figure there are already enough shooters out but not enough quality RPGs.  CoD and BBC and bad comparisons, you'd be better off with comparing it to gears and in that sense the combat is very similar.

I think the issue is a lot of us don't really feel that ammo makes a game better, doesn't fit the ME universe, and was poorly implimented.  Think to Garrus's recruitment mission, that apartment has probably 10-15 clips through out it and they respawn between each section, they might as well have just given me infinite ammo.  The other issue is that one side is willing to compromise and the other side isn't

Honestly I can't think it would be hard to design ME 3 so that when people loaded up the game they simply clicked a box saying I want ME style ammo, ME2 style of amoo, or a Hybrid style.  There, both sides are happy instead of only one being happy.

[Mallissin]

I understand that the limited ammo serves a purpose and I think  it did in a sense of adding to the overall sense of desperation in ME2  (which I feel was the overall theme for the game). Some of that has to carry over to ME3, but I feel the hybrid solution would free up the player a little more and be less frustrating overall.

One of the hopes of using the omni-gel system I laid out is that all weapons would have a single ammo source that you can replenish from multiple sources. This would simplify things in some respects and yet make things more complicated in others. One of the complaints of which I agree is that you can't take an unused clip from one gun and put it into another. I found that frustrating even after being told the clips are all standardized (which is barely believable to start). Using omni-gel as an ammo source gets away from this while also keeping to the limited ammo stringencies.

For instance, not every gun uses the same caliber ammo so different amounts of omni-gel would be used on a per weapon basis. Let's say the smallest caliber bullet takes 0.2 omni-gel, standard assault rifle rounds would be 0.5 and the highest caliber (bolt sniper) takes 1.5. So, a sniper with only 10 omni-gel needs to decide if he can kill those six enemies with only his sniper rifle or will he need to trade down to his pistol.

Flushing to reduce the overheating could also deviate by weapon type or design as well. Hell, I'd imagine a decent weapon designer could even turn the flushing action on some guns into a short-range flame thrower effect, since the weapon would be spraying hot shards of metal dust.

Take it to another step further, we didn't have to worry about teammate's ammo in ME2, which was a little weird albeit very conveinent. What about on Insanity in ME3, you do need to make sure they all have enough omni-gel for the mission? So, maybe after each intense battle, you need to have quick pow-wows to split up the collected gel? Or even better, teammates can collect gel to themselves and you can distribute it when not in combat for free or during combat at a cost.

Just seems like more is possible in the hybrid system and it's more believable. If I had a choice, I'd prefer it over ME1 or ME2 style ammo systems.

Modifié par Mallissin, 04 mars 2010 - 03:09 .

[Cody]

Mallissin wrote...

I understand that the limited ammo serves a purpose and I think  it did in a sense of adding to the overall sense of desperation in ME2  (which I feel was the overall theme for the game). Some of that has to carry over to ME3, but I feel the hybrid solution would free up the player a little more and be less frustrating overall.

One of the hopes of using the omni-gel system I laid out is that all weapons would have a single ammo source that you can replenish from multiple sources. This would simplify things in some respects and yet make things more complicated in others. One of the complaints of which I agree is that you can't take an unused clip from one gun and put it into another. I found that frustrating even after being told the clips are all standardized (which is barely believable to start). Using omni-gel as an ammo source gets away from this while also keeping to the limited ammo stringencies.

For instance, not every gun uses the same caliber ammo so different amounts of omni-gel would be used on a per weapon basis. Let's say the smallest caliber bullet takes 0.2 omni-gel, standard assault rifle rounds would be 0.5 and the highest caliber (bolt sniper) takes 1.5. So, a sniper with only 10 omni-gel needs to decide if he can kill those six enemies with only his sniper rifle or will he need to trade down to his pistol.

Flushing to reduce the overheating could also deviate by weapon type or design as well. Hell, I'd imagine a decent weapon designer could even turn the flushing action on some guns into a short-range flame thrower effect, since the weapon would be spraying hot shards of metal dust.

Take it to another step further, we didn't have to worry about teammate's ammo in ME2, which was a little weird albeit very conveinent. What about on Insanity in ME3, you do need to make sure they all have enough omni-gel for the mission? So, maybe after each intense battle, you need to have quick pow-wows to split up the collected gel? Or even better, teammates can collect gel to themselves and you can distribute it when not in combat for free or during combat at a cost.

Just seems like more is possible in the hybrid system and it's more believable. If I had a choice, I'd prefer it over ME1 or ME2 style ammo systems.

This is a sound plan to me. I mean omni-gel was nowhere in site in ME2, so bringing it back for something like that sounds good to me. Plus if we ever run out of omni-gel we could always get ammo from the ground as a last resort.

Basically though your idea is to have omni-gel around so we could replenish our ammo during combat if we don't want to go searching around while being under fire to look for ammo. Is that what your getting at?

[Mallissin]

CodyMelch wrote...

This is a sound plan to me. I mean omni-gel was nowhere in site in ME2, so bringing it back for something like that sounds good to me. Plus if we ever run out of omni-gel we could always get ammo from the ground as a last resort.

Basically though your idea is to have omni-gel around so we could replenish our ammo during combat if we don't want to go searching around while being under fire to look for ammo. Is that what your getting at?

Well, the omni-gel would be the coolant and ammo. You wouldn't have individual gun clips anymore, instead when you have your gun out there would be an omni-gel number and then a number beside it to show you how much firing costs.

So, in the sniper scenario, he'd have a lil piece of his HUD say "Omni-gel 10.0 / 1.5", where 10 is the gel he has on him and 1.5 is how much a shot will cost. Each time you fire will also nudge up the heat meter like ME1, so you either need to pace yourself or reload/flush. Flushing to eliminate an overheat could be a standard universal cost or dependant on the gun, like 5 times the ammo cost.

But if you ran out of omni-gel, you can't fire any of your guns.

Anyway, the 10 omni-gel in the sniper scenario is only to show an example of how a player reacts when low on ammo. You'd probably be running around with hundreds of omni-gel most of the time. Weapons and omni-tools you find on dead enemies would probably have 50-100 each, perhaps more depending on the enemy.

In the first game, you could only have 99 omni-gel I think. So, if they make 100 the ceiling again, just reduce all the numbers I mentioned by a tenth.

Modifié par Mallissin, 04 mars 2010 - 03:47 .

[Akeashar]

As a note, the whole 'Hardcore/Insanity is for planning your shots' only works if the enemies drop ammo. The times that I've come close to running out tends to be either a) No enemies in the space of a couple of rooms dropped ammo, and there isn't any placed ammo (doesn't happen too often) or I'm in the suicide mission, the enemies dropped the ammo, but to pick it up I have to move the biotic shield forward, at which point I then died for some reason or other. Of course, reloading your savegame, the dropped ammo is no longer there.
Also, you should never have to worry yourself about the ammo that your team mates have. You can control your shots, unless they give you a passive option, then you've got no control whatsoever over how smart or stupid your squadmates are. I don't want to think about a protracted firefight with the squad running out of ammo because Grunt has decided its fun to fire his gun into the barrier the bad guys are hiding behind.

Modifié par Akeashar, 04 mars 2010 - 05:08 .

[Daeion]

WillieStyle wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I wanted to be a sniper, but with only 10 shots, i was constantly forced to use pistols,

You're doing it wrong.

Infinite thermal clips is a great idea. And would make more sense than the complete introduction of an ammo system to the entire galaxy in two years with no sign of the previous heat sinks...

These threads essentially amount to polls wherein we tell Bioware what we as players want.
In that spirit, I'd like to tell Bioware, please for the love of the flying spagghetti monster, do not go back to inifinite ammo in ME3.  ME2 combat is FAR better, and finite ammo is a big part of this.

And you have the right to tell someone how to play the game they paid for why?  If someone wants to be a sniper, then they should be able to be a sniper, that's one of the points of a RPG, to play through how you want to.

ME2 combat is no better then ME combat and honestly I find it to be far more boring because I spend half my time behind cover waiting for shields/health to regen.  If I wanted to do some cover based shooting I'd go play some more horde mode in GoW2.

[Daeion]

Pauravi wrote...

No, leave the clips alone.
When I first played ME1 I thought having infinite ammo was cool, too, until I realized that it made gunfights a lot more boring and easy. People are arguing this from a realism/technology perspective, which misses the point; it is completely and totally irrelevant. They did this to make gunfights more exciting and to reward skill. It does both of those things, and does them well.

Yes, gun fights are so much more exciting and rewardful now...oh wait, no they aren't.  Combat in this game is not hard nor is it rewarding, it's the same boring thing that is seen in other shooters.

[Daeion]

Mlow44 wrote...

on normal/veteran mode ammo isn't much of a concern. hardcore/insanity are supposed to challenge you. it's part of the strategy to plan out which enemies you're going to kill with which guns, in order to increase killing effectiveness and save ammo. makes you use your biotics/tech skills more (i don't think i even really discovered biotics in the first game until my fourth playthrough). it's just a matter of practicing to get used to doing this. if you don't want to have to deal with low ammo, play on Normal. Insanity was designed for people who were willing to work on their gameplay if they weren't intuitively good at it. I died plenty of times my first playthroughs due to running out of ammo. but once i started playing smart it just didn't become an issue nearly as often (i still get a little carried away spraying the Tempest SMG sometimes). I for one enjoy what the new thermal clips brought to the gameplay in Mass Effect 2, and hope they keep it in the third

I never had issues with ammo on hardcore and haven't had issues on my insanity play through yet.

[Daeion]

Mallissin wrote...
Take it to another step further, we didn't have to worry about teammate's ammo in ME2, which was a little weird albeit very conveinent. What about on Insanity in ME3, you do need to make sure they all have enough omni-gel for the mission? So, maybe after each intense battle, you need to have quick pow-wows to split up the collected gel? Or even better, teammates can collect gel to themselves and you can distribute it when not in combat for free or during combat at a cost.

Won't work.  If people can't handle an inventory system, they aren't going to stop to figure out ammo.

[sonsonthebia07]

I support either the current system or something similar to a mixture of the systems of both ME1 and 2 mentioned in above posts. I will never agree to a fully-infinite ammo solution, regardless of the argument.

WillieStyle wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I wanted to be a sniper, but with only 10 shots, i was constantly forced to use pistols,

You're doing it wrong.

Infinite thermal clips is a great idea. And would make more sense than the complete introduction of an ammo system to the entire galaxy in two years with no sign of the previous heat sinks...

These threads essentially amount to polls wherein we tell Bioware what we as players want.
In that spirit, I'd like to tell Bioware, please for the love of the flying spagghetti monster, do not go back to inifinite ammo in ME3.  ME2 combat is FAR better, and finite ammo is a big part of this.

Couldn't have put it any better.

[Pythonicus]

An omni-gel solution makes perfect sense to me. When you pick up a clip it is just a representation of discarded gear that you would have found in ME1 gathered up and reduced to omni-gel anyways. Now though instead of just stockpiling waiting to open a lock or repair the Mako you use it instead to greatly improve the performance of your weapons. Thermal clips are made of omni-gel or they should be. This even explains things like the whole Hugo Gurnsbeck situation or finding "clips" on collectors. It even nicely explains why your squad never runs out. They're just gathering resources during the battle like you.
I don't understand why BioWare didn't go with something like this. It makes sense to take a little used but plentiful substance from the first game to explain a significant change in the next. Heck it even explais the huge change in the inventory system.

[Daeion]

sonsonthebia07 wrote...
I support either the current system or something similar to a mixture of the systems of both ME1 and 2 mentioned in above posts. I will never agree to a fully-infinite ammo solution, regardless of the argument.

But how do you hybridize ME and ME2 without having some sort of infinte ammo?  The idea behind a hybrid system is that you take the ammo system from ME and then impliment thermal clips for rapid cool down during battle, but you still end up having infinite ammo.

Modifié par Daeion, 04 mars 2010 - 05:37 .

[sonsonthebia07]

Daeion wrote...

sonsonthebia07 wrote...
I support either the current system or something similar to a mixture of the systems of both ME1 and 2 mentioned in above posts. I will never agree to a fully-infinite ammo solution, regardless of the argument.

But how do you hybridize ME and ME2 without having some sort of infinte ammo?  The idea behind a hybrid system is that you take the ammo system from ME and then impliment thermal clips for rapid cool down during battle, but you still end up having infinite ammo.

I haven't a clue. In all honesty I would prefer if the system was kept how it is in ME2. I understand that some people are on the other side of the spectrum, which is why I would like it if an agreement between both systems could be somehow accomplished without the infinite ammo.

I didn't say I had ideas, I just said that I supported the ideas that other have.

[Cody]

Only reason I made this topic was to try and get everyone to come up with a compromise. I myself greatly prefer the combat system in me2 over the one in me1 (excluding the biotic system...only good thing from that was barrier and charge). That's why I support some sort of hybrid system between the 2.

[Daeion]

I think really the only compromise is to introduce a true hybrid system that is based on the ME ammo system but weapons take longer to cool down and then include a very limited number of thermal clips around a map that can be used to rapidly cool down a weapon during battle. This to me teaches people to pick and pace their shots better during combat then the ME2 system where ammo is everywhere and also allows sabotage to return to the game.

[slyguy07]

I agree the heat should be able to be vented somehow or just combine the system like Daeion keeps saying. The only reason the ammo system was so bad in ME1 was b/c the weapons could keep firing forever. If they had made it so they overheated more easily it would have been better. The only weapons that tended to overheat were the first lower tier weapons and all sniper rifles.



I'm sorry, but thermal clips are retarded after ME1. The lore doesn't fit in well and ammo powers are stupid. There should be a hybrid system, but not the system from ME1 and dang sure not the system from ME2.

[sonsonthebia07]

Daeion wrote...

I think really the only compromise is to introduce a true hybrid system that is based on the ME ammo system but weapons take longer to cool down and then include a very limited number of thermal clips around a map that can be used to rapidly cool down a weapon during battle. This to me teaches people to pick and pace their shots better during combat then the ME2 system where ammo is everywhere and also allows sabotage to return to the game.

Just out of curiosity, why do you want Sabotage on its own again? It is worked into Overload now, third tier I believe.

[DarthCaine]

My idea is that we keep the thermals clip but when you run out of ammo it overheats normally but really fast (much faster than in ME1) and there's a chance it could get jammed completely or blow up in your face

[ExtremeOne]

Daeion wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Fjordgnu wrote...

What I would like to see is a hybrid of the two systems. It makes sense that if you're not going to get in a firefight for a while, or you're plain out of extra clips, you're able to leave it in and allow it to cool by itself. Unless, of course, they overheat to the point where leaving it in would damage the weapon.

Also, environment should affect how long it takes for weapons to cool. In a vacuum, heat is transferred only as radiation, and so should take longer than in a place with an atmosphere. There should also be a difference between very hot and very cold locations.

  



The ME 1 combat system was broke and part of that was the ammo system in it. Bioware fixed it in ME 2. If you do not like ME 2 its real simple go back and play ME 1. Thermal clips work better and are more logical. 

I think you missed my point entirely. I like thermal clips, and it makes sense from a physics perspective, but so does having them cool down over time - basically for ammo to slowly regenerate when you're not shooting. It might be cheap from a gameplay perspective, but you're the one who brought up logic.

  


ammo is not the same as some biotic power and plus there should be no cool down at all in the game. I mean the ammo in the game is logical. the one from ME 1 was not logical at all . It is cheap to use the stupid cool down crap on ammo as well.  

It's the freaking future and we are flying around with FTL drives and jumping across the galaxy in a matter of seconds all while trying to keep a race of sentient machines from eating us and you want to talk about what's logical?  And I still fail to see how the ammo system in ME wasn't logical.

 


The unlimited ammo system from ME 1 was stupid and made no sense what so ever. at least Thermal clips make ME 2 somewhat believe able. maybe ME 1 and 2 should have been laser based weapons then we would not need no ammo at all. 

[Daeion]

sonsonthebia07 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I think really the only compromise is to introduce a true hybrid system that is based on the ME ammo system but weapons take longer to cool down and then include a very limited number of thermal clips around a map that can be used to rapidly cool down a weapon during battle. This to me teaches people to pick and pace their shots better during combat then the ME2 system where ammo is everywhere and also allows sabotage to return to the game.

Just out of curiosity, why do you want Sabotage on its own again? It is worked into Overload now, third tier I believe.

I always forget that it's worked into overload, for me overload is just a bring down their shields ability.

[Pedro Costa]

I wouldn't like the cool down unless it took like 15 seconds or more on a sniper, 5 on a shotty, 20 on an AR, and so on, otherwise you could just sit in cover and wait for your weapon to cool off in just a few seconds... ergo, the heat sinks would be obsolete and there'd be no compromise... if we are to indeed make a compromise (although I don't really see a reason to, it just seems some players are taking a little bit longer to adjust their play styles than others), the auto-dissipation needs to have some serious drawbacks to incite the player to keep a fast-pace during combat instead of sitting back and wait for the heat sink to cool off...

just my two cents, tho.



Much more fun this way imo, at least I *have* to change weapons every now and then instead of storming in with my shotgun or sniping with the widow from afar.



As a side note, something that people seem to be talking about and I think they're making a confusion is that your "dissipation bar" didn't disappear, only that whereas in ME1 it increased until overheat, now you have the number of shots left before the sink overheats...

[Mallissin]

So, most of us agree that:



1. The unlimited ammo in ME1 was unbelievable and the system to slow you (heat meter) was easily bypassed making it worthless.

2. The finite ammo in ME2 makes more sense but the story behind the change is unbelievable and there are some shortcomings (can't share clips between weapons).



Are there any parts of the hybrid system proposed by several of us that seems unbelievable or annoying?

[Daeion]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Daeion wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

ammo is not the same as some biotic power and plus there should be no cool down at all in the game. I mean the ammo in the game is logical. the one from ME 1 was not logical at all . It is cheap to use the stupid cool down crap on ammo as well.  

It's the freaking future and we are flying around with FTL drives and jumping across the galaxy in a matter of seconds all while trying to keep a race of sentient machines from eating us and you want to talk about what's logical?  And I still fail to see how the ammo system in ME wasn't logical.

 


The unlimited ammo system from ME 1 was stupid and made no sense what so ever. at least Thermal clips make ME 2 somewhat believe able. maybe ME 1 and 2 should have been laser based weapons then we would not need no ammo at all. 

Once again, how is it that you pick this thing to be what doesn't make sense, and once again how doesn't it make sense?  Ammo was never unlimited in the ME universe.  Mass Effect infantry weapons use mass accelerator
technology. The guns shave a bullet the size of a grain of sand off a dense block of metal stored in the gun, decrease its mass with a mass effect field, and fire the projectile at supersonic velocities.  Weapons were able to get 4000 shots per block.  Now I can't think of a mission where I went through 4000 shots, maybe Ilos+Citadel, and one would assume that you got a new block each time you left the normandy.  So game wise it played like there was unlimited ammo but lore wise there never was.  The idea behind the ME system is sound, the problem was they made it too easy to bypass the need for the weapon to cool down.

Modifié par Daeion, 04 mars 2010 - 07:20 .

[Zem_]

Daeion wrote...

The idea behind the ME system is sound, the problem was they made it too easy to bypass the need for the weapon to cool down.

Unlimited ammo is unlimited.  THAT is the problem.  Weapon mods in ME1 just made it ridiculous.  You could load your weapon with scram rails and still it was unlimited ammo, you just had a lower rate of fire.  Rather than being forced to press forward, you could always just retreat or take cover while your weapons cooled.  You could take a risky shot at a moving target without worry about wasting a bullet.

In ME1 this was somewhat balanced by the abundance of charging enemies.  There are not nearly so many in ME2 except in certain situations.  Many encounters are fought from cover on both sides allowing plenty of time for weapon cooldowns even if they are made longer than in ME1.  You can also cycle weapons more easily in ME2 to avoid cooldown since you are equally effective with everything you're carrying whereas in ME1 you might only have one or two that you could do real damage with depending on your skills.

As for there being too much ammo lying around in ME2, that is a separate issue.  If you want to compare this hybrid idea to the thermal clips of ME2, let's compare apples-to-apples.  Given the same number of available clips, the hybrid idea allows you to simply be less careful with your shots.