178 réponses à ce sujet

[Daeion]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Well duh it's my opinion, unlike those I argue against, I don't pass anything off as fact or claim that I speak for anyone but myself.  I disagree that ME was meant to be a hybrid between shooters and RPGs.  To me it was still meant to be a heavy RPG game but instead of doing the same combat system they had used in KOTOR and used in DA:O, they decided they wanted something a little more fast paced, which they got with ME.  ME was always promoted as roleplaying perfected, there was no mention of trying to be a RPG/shooter hybrid. 

I love the whole RPG elitest and not liking shooters arguement, too bad I'm a big fan of Halo, Bioshock, and Gears of War, but please, tell me more baout how I'm an RPG elitest and don't like shooters. 

The great thing about ME was that it was something different then anything else out there at the time.  Now we have ME2 and honestly I might as well just be playing Gears with a better story.  You're right, you should look for what's fun, but if it's ok for you to look for what's fun, then it's ok for me to look for what's fun and to voice my opinion that I feel they went too far when trying to make ME more mainstream and that I don't think thermal clips adds to the game in any way, shape, or form.

The Roleplaying *is* perfected.  None of the actual Roleplaying changed in ME2.  Not a bit of it.  There's less pointless statistics and loot, but Roleplaying doesn't need any of that.  Just because D&D does it, doesn't mean every RPG has to be about bloated stat screens.  You play the role of Shepard.  Your choices shape the world around you.  So far, we haven't been able to see much more than ambiance differences, but we're only in the middle of the trilogy.

Note on your middle paragraph.  You said, "Combat in this game is not hard nor is it rewarding, it's the same boring thing that is seen in other shooters."

Now, I'm not sure if you're aware of what you said there or not, but you said flat out "Shooter combat is boring."  You said it, you don't get to come back and state to the contrary after it's been pointed out.  At this point, I'm convinced you're either a troll, or an idiot.  Arguing with you, in either case, is just a waste of everyone's time.  So you have a good day, and enjoy your impotent whine-fest.  ::bows::

The roleplaying was perfected in ME, in ME2 it got put in the corner.  Does this game still have RPG elements?  Yes, are they as good as ME?  No.  I disagree that a great RPG doesn't need loot or statistics.  One of the big points of a RPG is building your character and watching them grow through out the game.  Do most people eventually end up in the same spot with the same gear?  Sure, but getting there is different for everyone.  So are you calling Bioshock a RPG?

So because I don't find shooter combat to be exciting I'm all of a sudden a troll?  If that's what you have to resort to then perhaps you are the troll.

[binaryemperor]

I like the reload system. It works well with the cover system. I don't like finite ammo, though, to me it just makes me feel like I am playing just another stock shooter.

I mean, if we are going to have finite ammo again for the sake of "realism" and "skill", why not just get rid of regenerating health, too? We have medi-gel, why heal bullet/rocket wounds in 5 seconds by sitting behind a crate? That takes no skill; it's not realistic!

Modifié par binaryemperor, 05 mars 2010 - 11:22 .

[CraigHB]

I played Infiltrator so I could play as a sniper, not a guy who needs to bust out a crappy smg halfway through a fight. I want to  play a one shot, one kill kind of guy (which I was pretty good at), not a spray and pray one. All that's needed is to double the heat sink capacity; it's not a big ask.

Yea, I *love* playing infiltrator. I carry the sniper rifle almost 100% of the time. I love that Widow, one shot, one kill and all. If I can't cover and take my time sniping something, I spam it to death with my squad powers. It's an interesting way to play and it works in this game. I really have a lot of fun with it. I haven't seen such great sniper action in a game since Far Cry.

The heat sink situation is *the* problem with the sniper rifle. Not always, but on occasion, I have to spend some time scrounging for heat sinks after a battle. I've learned to rely on my squad powers to keep from running out.

I agree the problem isn't so much that heat sinks suck, it's that the sniper rifle doesn't carry enough of them. Barring that, I pretty much agree with the statement that if you never run out of heatsinks anyway, why annoy players with them.

Modifié par CraigHB, 05 mars 2010 - 11:57 .

[Zem_]

CraigHB wrote...

I agree the problem isn't so much that heat sinks suck, it's that the sniper rifle doesn't carry enough of them. Barring that, I pretty much agree with the statement that if you never run out of heatsinks anyway, why annoy players with them.

Because it's not true that you never run out of heatsinks.  This is kind of like saying Insanity is "too easy" just because it is possible to complete the game on that level.   It's not supposed to be impossible.  Neither is it supposed to be impossible to play with limited ammo and never run out.  But like finishing the game on Insanity, you will only "never run out" of heat-sinks if you're playing the game right.  Stick to one weapon and stay in one spot and you WILL most likely run out.  That's the difference between this system and the one in ME1 where you could do exactly that and never run out of ammo.

It can still be a single player's opinion that there are too many heatsinks lying around just as some people will still claim Insanity is too easy.  That's bound to happen.  Someone else will be of the opinion there are not enough.

[Zem_]

binaryemperor wrote...

I mean, if we are going to have finite ammo again for the sake of "realism" and "skill", why not just get rid of regenerating health, too? We have medi-gel, why heal bullet/rocket wounds in 5 seconds by sitting behind a crate? That takes no skill; it's not realistic!

Sorry but slippery slope does not apply here.  Limited ammo was not, in fact, introduced for "realism".  ME1 had a perfectly reasonable explanation for unlimited ammo consistent with the future tech they had invented.  Realism was not the problem.  They simply wanted to limit ammo in this game to introduce one limited resource into combat that you now have to deal with.  This does not oblige them to make all resources limited and non-regenerating. 

[Daeion]

Zem_ wrote...

CraigHB wrote...

I agree the problem isn't so much that heat sinks suck, it's that the sniper rifle doesn't carry enough of them. Barring that, I pretty much agree with the statement that if you never run out of heatsinks anyway, why annoy players with them.

Because it's not true that you never run out of heatsinks.  This is kind of like saying Insanity is "too easy" just because it is possible to complete the game on that level.   It's not supposed to be impossible.  Neither is it supposed to be impossible to play with limited ammo and never run out.  But like finishing the game on Insanity, you will only "never run out" of heat-sinks if you're playing the game right.  Stick to one weapon and stay in one spot and you WILL most likely run out.  That's the difference between this system and the one in ME1 where you could do exactly that and never run out of ammo.

It can still be a single player's opinion that there are too many heatsinks lying around just as some people will still claim Insanity is too easy.  That's bound to happen.  Someone else will be of the opinion there are not enough.

I can use the SMG the entire time and never have to worry about ammo, I can use an AR and never worry about ammo, heck I used the ar you get off the collector ship with no upgrades on my sodlier HC mode play through and never worried about ammo even though that thing is inaccurate as hell.  Only weapon I ever had to worry about ammo for was the Widow.  Honestly if people are running out of ammo, they aren't just playing wrong, they are playing stupidly which just should never happen regardless fo the system, but w/e.

[Zem_]

AdamBoozer wrote...

I like this idea don't see why they didn't think of it.

You're assuming that because they didn't do it, they didn't think of it.  Given that they had heat-dissipation over time in the first game and not in the second, don't you think a hybrid system DID occur to them.  In fact if I read it right in some of the mod threads, it may even be possible to enable weapon cooling in ME2 right now (well, on the PC version anyway).  So the most likely explanation is that they did think of it and decided against it.

[Zem_]

Daeion wrote...

I can use the SMG the entire time and never have to worry about ammo, I can use an AR and never worry about ammo, heck I used the ar you get off the collector ship with no upgrades on my sodlier HC mode play through and never worried about ammo even though that thing is inaccurate as hell.  Only weapon I ever had to worry about ammo for was the Widow.  Honestly if people are running out of ammo, they aren't just playing wrong, they are playing stupidly which just should never happen regardless fo the system, but w/e.

It's possible the whole point was to limit just the slow, powerful, accurate long-range  weapons.  To me it's pretty clear from the small capacity of sniper rifles and addition of cloak that they saw the ability to be an unlimited long-range sniper in ME1 as somewhat overpowered and wanted to encourage Infiltrators to actually INFILTRATE.

Doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me, but then I didn't mind getting in close with my Infiltrator in ME1 either.

[DaveTheJackal]

What about both: discardable heatsinks that will cool down on their own overtime. Maybe with a heatexchanger upgrade to weapons so they recharge/cool quicker over time.

[Mallissin]

I play primarily Infiltrator as well and was kind of pissed how nerfed they seemed in ME2, but that's for another discussion. My first play-through on normal and insanity was with an Infiltrator, and on the latter I definitely had ammo issues on several missions as well.

Anyway back to the main discussion, I don't see how that rotating heat-sink system would work. The heat-sink can't cool off that quickly, so you'd need to balance the number of sinks to how fast the rate of fire you're expecting. On phalanx type weapons with multiple barrels, each bullet is fired through each barrel and the spinning of the array of barrels help cool them.

But on smaller weapons, it just doesn't make sense. Let's say you have a pistol that overheats after 12 quickly fired bullets that took 6 seconds to fire. You really think it'll take only 6 seconds to cool off that heat-sink while you're using the reserve? How many heat-sinks would you need to handle a reasonable rate of fire? Imagine how big an assault rifle or SMG would be!

Then you're expecting air to cool the gun, but the Laws of Thermodynamics don't work that way at higher temperatures and what about space environments. Maybe with water cooling, where you're throwing a liquid at the heat to carry it off, you might be able to do a speedy cool off, but just using air just isn't going to cut it and even water cooling produces a headache in rapid fire situations (steam, where's the water coming from, are you wearing an AC unit on your back?).

Hence the omni-gel idea. It's a liquid, it can be burned solid while it's absorbing the heat to cool the heat-sink, and it's discarded by being used as ammo. Tidy.

Modifié par Mallissin, 06 mars 2010 - 01:59 .

[Pauravi]

Daeion wrote...
Honestly if people are running out of ammo, they aren't just playing wrong, they are playing stupidly which just should never happen regardless fo the system, but w/e.

But in ME1 you could play stupidly, and still win.  Easily.  IMO, that is a problem.

I usually used cover just because it felt more like a real gun battle that way, but I would often get bored of the firefights (especially on my 3rd playthrough) and simply turn on Immunity, hold down the trigger and run into a room full of baddies.  I usually came away from it no worse for the wear.  Maybe I'd have to use a MedKit once in a while, but who cares?  They're easy enough to get, and with the Medical Exoskeleton they're largely useless anyway.

In ME2 you simply cannot do that.  If you try, you WILL run out of ammo, or more likely you'll be killed before even being able to waste all your clips.

DaveTheJackal wrote...

What about both: discardable
heatsinks that will cool down on their own overtime. Maybe with a
heatexchanger upgrade to weapons so they recharge/cool quicker over
time.

Because the whole point is to limit ammo supply.
Technological innovation is not the obsticle here.  If they wanted people to have infinite ammo they'd have just modified the ME1 system a little bit.   They wanted to change the gameplay mechanic entirely, so they came up with a viable excuse for it.  They aren't struggling with the laws of thermodynamics here, they're just making the combat better.  I think they did a good job.

Modifié par Pauravi, 06 mars 2010 - 02:05 .

[Pauravi]

Mallissin wrote...

Then you're expecting air to cool the gun, but the Laws of Thermodynamics don't work that way at higher temperatures and what about space environments.

Actually they don't work that way, period.  And this is a VERY good point.
The weapon cooling in the first game was actually quite unrealistic because the weapons would still cool off in airless environments like Luna, or planets with very thin atmospheres.  Heat cannot be conducted away from the gun unless there is something to conduct heat TO, and places with thin atmospheres or with certain atmospheric compositions would simply not have the heat capacity to get rid of the heat of gunfire quickly enough.  In that case, disposable heat sinks are really the only solution.

Modifié par Pauravi, 06 mars 2010 - 02:07 .

[Pauravi]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

Keep the thermal clips but bring back weapon mods.If people want to use things like frictionless materials and simply spam bullets, fine, but at the cost of reduced damage. Make ammo powers available for everyone where logical. For example: Garrus isn't biotic so he can't therefore generate warp ammo. Shredder, incendiary, armour piercing, and disruptor are for everyone. Also keep ammo choices in the power wheel.

Most sensible suggestion in the whole thread.

Having each gun able to support one, maybe two modifications would allow people to customize each gun more to their liking.  I don't think any of the mods should be patently better than stock, necessarily -- just change the way they handle.  +heat/ammo capacity, -damage.  +RoF, -accuracy.  Stuff like that.

My only quibble is that, while your suggestion about ammo types makes sense logically, ammo types are a major point of class balance in the game.  Most of the Soldier's powers are ammo because their guns are their main (only) weapons.  They are also what make certain squad mates unique.  For instance, only Garrus has AP ammo, and only Thane has Shredder; this doesn't necessarily make sense logically (neither does Soldier being the only one who can fire an AR, for that matter), but it is necessary to keep a balance between classes.

I'm not necessarily against letting everyone use most types of ammo, but IMO they would have to come up with several new powers to re-establish class strengths and weaknesses, especially for Soldiers.

[Mallissin]

Pauravi wrote...
In that case, disposable heat sinks are really the only solution.

OR the omni-gel hybrid solution!

[Daeion]

Zem_ wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I can use the SMG the entire time and never have to worry about ammo, I can use an AR and never worry about ammo, heck I used the ar you get off the collector ship with no upgrades on my sodlier HC mode play through and never worried about ammo even though that thing is inaccurate as hell.  Only weapon I ever had to worry about ammo for was the Widow.  Honestly if people are running out of ammo, they aren't just playing wrong, they are playing stupidly which just should never happen regardless fo the system, but w/e.

It's possible the whole point was to limit just the slow, powerful, accurate long-range  weapons.  To me it's pretty clear from the small capacity of sniper rifles and addition of cloak that they saw the ability to be an unlimited long-range sniper in ME1 as somewhat overpowered and wanted to encourage Infiltrators to actually INFILTRATE.

Doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me, but then I didn't mind getting in close with my Infiltrator in ME1 either.

I don't know why anyone would have tried to just snipe in ME1 since it was so horribly inefficient because of the to hit roll.  I remember having a bunch of unused points on my soldier so I maxed out the sniper rifle, played for about 15 minutes just trying to snipe and then reloaded to a previous save so I could put the points somewhere else because I hated having a perfect head shot lined up and missing.  To me you counter a sniper with your own snipers and having more aggressive enemies that move up on the sniper.

[Daeion]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

What about both: discardable heatsinks that will cool down on their own overtime. Maybe with a heatexchanger upgrade to weapons so they recharge/cool quicker over time.

Apparently now that one side is happy we can't try to make both sides happy.  Honestly at this point I say screw the hybrid system and just give me the option at the begining of a play through to decide what ammo system I want, can't be much harder then implimenting difficulty levels.

[Daeion]

Pauravi wrote...

Daeion wrote...
Honestly if people are running out of ammo, they aren't just playing wrong, they are playing stupidly which just should never happen regardless fo the system, but w/e.

But in ME1 you could play stupidly, and still win.  Easily.  IMO, that is a problem.

I usually used cover just because it felt more like a real gun battle that way, but I would often get bored of the firefights (especially on my 3rd playthrough) and simply turn on Immunity, hold down the trigger and run into a room full of baddies.  I usually came away from it no worse for the wear.  Maybe I'd have to use a MedKit once in a while, but who cares?  They're easy enough to get, and with the Medical Exoskeleton they're largely useless anyway.

In ME2 you simply cannot do that.  If you try, you WILL run out of ammo, or more likely you'll be killed before even being able to waste all your clips.

DaveTheJackal wrote...

What about both: discardable
heatsinks that will cool down on their own overtime. Maybe with a
heatexchanger upgrade to weapons so they recharge/cool quicker over
time.

Because the whole point is to limit ammo supply.
Technological innovation is not the obsticle here.  If they wanted people to have infinite ammo they'd have just modified the ME1 system a little bit.   They wanted to change the gameplay mechanic entirely, so they came up with a viable excuse for it.  They aren't struggling with the laws of thermodynamics here, they're just making the combat better.  I think they did a good job.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.  I can go throw eggs at a neighbors house and not get caught, doesn't mean I would.  We can do a lot of things, doesn't mean we do.  If the current ammot system was implimented in ME, it would have had no effect on your ability to spam immunity and gun down an entire room full of baddies.  The only time you should have ammo issues is insannity, and it's called insannity for a reason.  I just fail to see how this made combat any better, I keep getting told that the system rewards you for not wasting shots but there's so much ammo laying around that it's never an issue anyways.

[Zem_]

Daeion wrote...

I don't know why anyone would have tried to just snipe in ME1 since it was so horribly inefficient because of the to hit roll.

I have no idea what you mean here.  When scoped in, I don't think there was any bullet spread. Just scope wobble if your skill/weapon-stability wasn't high enough.  If I had the crosshairs on a target, I hit it.  I don't recall just plain missing randomly, so if it ever happened it can't have happened very much.  You sure you didn't have a high degree of auto-aim set in options?  Maybe that would screw up your shot.

In any case, I could easily take out a Geth Colossus or stationary turret with the Sniper in perfect safety as long as I had something to crouch behind.  Took awhile, but thanks to infinite ammo it was inevitable.

[SpectreT]

Zem_, on various posts you've made, I alternately agree and disagree with you. ME1, I don't think I ever missed a target with the Sniper Rifle, even at very low skill; just had to wait till the swimming scope landed right on that Colossus's giant flashlight head and squeeze off a round.



Like I said in my first post in this thread, I view the Infiltrator as "Silent Death", either finding the perfect spot to pick off the enemy before they have any clue you're there or sneaking up on them and putting a bullet in their brain case with a pistol so you can see the look on what's left of their face. Not, "Crap, I've been bum rushed by rushing bums. Time to break out the machine gun."



If, as an Infiltrator, at any time you have to "Mix it up" at close range, it's because the proper game plan and strategy for your job has gone utterly pear-shaped. The only time you should "see the whites of their eyes" is through a high-power scope.



And I'll re-iterate and expand a little on my suggestion from before.



Re-Usable heat sinks.



Hear me out before you lambaste me.



Over the long term, yes, heat sink materials will degrade and warp, especially if they're made of a good conducting metal like copper (which is soft), but a solid block of metal is going to be durable.



Seems silly to throw it out.



You can still only carry a set amount of them, and they still have a limit on how much heat they can take in a firefight before they need to be replaced. After a firefight, though, it would be both stupid and irresponsible to leave a perfectly good heat sink behind just because it's at or near its heat capacity for now. Things can shed heat over time in many environments, and maybe an armor piece in similar vein as the off-hand ammo pack has coolant circulating to facilitate the process.



Example: your Hand Cannon can squeeze six rounds worth of heat into one of the four heatsinks you carry for it - you pop four bozos with those six shots and their fifteen friends are swarming. No time to put that heat sink in the coolant bath - dump it and pop in the next sink. Rinse and repeat until you're out of sinks or out of bozos.



End of the fight, it's assumed you get your heatsinks off the ground where they've begun cooling, and pop them in the bath to finish cooling. You're still SOL on the pistol until the cooldown meter on your pistol heatsinks finishes, but it's still less of a wallbanger than them disappearing when you use them and you have to pray the bozo brigade was carrying some so you can clear the next room's bozo brigade.



Combines what are, to my mind, the best elements of ME1 and ME2 methods of limiting your number of shots (Which didn't work at all in ME1 and only seems to screw with a certain playstyle for a certain class in ME2).



For those of us who like tweaking and improving things to make our characters more powerful as the game progresses, have things like different mareials used for the heatsink having better or worse heat absorbing potential, so the base material may only be good for four shots, and the best materials being good for eight, and researching better coolant or more effective circulation of coolant to shorten the cooldown time on your heatsinks.



Hey, works in the real world for milling machines - some metals smoke when you run a tool through them at high RPM in an old school Bridgeport regardless of what you use for lube, but a CNC sprays coolant/lube at the point of contact as it goes, meaning it can go longer and faster in the same metals without overstressing the part or the tool.

[Cody]

Daeion wrote...

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where the original poster said they didn't want to use their class abilities, I was under the impression that they wanted to use their sniper rifle more then the SMG or Pistol. 

wait........what? I...never said that either....how about you go back to page 1 and READ what I posted instead of cramming words down my throat. Theriddlen basically described what i ment quite clearly. Which I replied and saying "this is what i ment"

theriddlen wrote...

I think that built-in weapon cooling
system that needs to move the heatsink out (to cool it down) and replace
it with second one would be better idea than ME1 and 2 systems.



Sorry for size, background and primitiveness, but its
almost midnight in poland. And it explains the idea pretty well.
 

Keep the realistic gunfighting of ME2 and have the ammo system like above and you got it. Have "infinite" ammo like in ME1 but the reload system in ME2.

Another idea is to eject the heatsink thats already in the gun so it can cooldown faster out in the open then it could inside the gun, like in Gears Of War 2 when you use the chain gun, you can do a similar thing with the chain gun and make the cooldown timer go down faster. Keep the reload system like in ME2 but has "infinite" ammo like in ME1 but the cooldown can be much faster depending if you eject the heatsink and leave it out.

With both situations you get something that everyone wants. Win Win.

Modifié par CodyMelch, 06 mars 2010 - 01:41 .

[Zem_]

CodyMelch wrote...

With both situations you get something that everyone wants. Win Win.

Except those who don't want infinite ammo.   I don't want to have to "pretend" I need to find ammo clips when I can really just sit behind a rock and plink away with the Widow all day.  Even if it's slower than ME1 it's still infinite ammo and as long as no one is charging my position (which was often the case in ME2) then I have all day.  If it's a difficulty option, great.  Otherwise, no.  Infinite ammo is infinite ammo no matter how you dress it up.

This thread makes me want to go re-install System Shock 2 so I can remember what real limited ammo was like.  In that game, finding a few rounds of AP for the rifle was like Christmas and you damn well didn't waste it.

[Daeion]

CodyMelch wrote...

Daeion wrote...

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where the original poster said they didn't want to use their class abilities, I was under the impression that they wanted to use their sniper rifle more then the SMG or Pistol. 

wait........what? I...never said that either....how about you go back to page 1 and READ what I posted instead of cramming words down my throat. Theriddlen basically described what i ment quite clearly. Which I replied and saying "this is what i ment"

I was refering to the original poster, Vaenier, of the post that CmdrFenix83 had quoted, that's why I said the original poster instead of OP.  Sure I could have used his name, but I guess I didn't think I needed to because anyone who was READING would be able to follow the conversation and know what we were talking about.  So how about you go back and READ what we were discussing instead of being an ass and jumping down my throat.

Modifié par Daeion, 06 mars 2010 - 07:34 .

[Daeion]

Zem_ wrote...

CodyMelch wrote...

With both situations you get something that everyone wants. Win Win.

Except those who don't want infinite ammo.   I don't want to have to "pretend" I need to find ammo clips when I can really just sit behind a rock and plink away with the Widow all day.  Even if it's slower than ME1 it's still infinite ammo and as long as no one is charging my position (which was often the case in ME2) then I have all day.  If it's a difficulty option, great.  Otherwise, no.  Infinite ammo is infinite ammo no matter how you dress it up.

This thread makes me want to go re-install System Shock 2 so I can remember what real limited ammo was like.  In that game, finding a few rounds of AP for the rifle was like Christmas and you damn well didn't waste it.

Then perhaps you should be asking BW to impliment more agressive enemies that move in on you.  Guess what, the game still has infinite ammo unless you are playing on insanity, it's just dressed up as a crap load of thermal clips so you think you have limited ammo.