77 réponses à ce sujet

[The_Abyss]

With all the justifying threads recently you'd think someone would have made this one. Then again, there are a lot of loghain threads so this is probably unnecessary, but still.....just to go with the crowd....

I've recently decided to load one of my old saves and spare loghain. Believe me it was pretty difficult letting alistar go and his reaction was pretty.....well.....intense (not to mention sad, really - plus that was a save with an un-hardened alistar). But chatting with loghain to gain insight on his character, I couldn't help but wonder - what if alistar COULD allow him to be a grey warden? Loghain isn't an inherently evil character - prejudiced and misguided, perhaps - talking him with an conversations revealed a fairly deep character that had his reasons for doing what he did - some pretty strong reasons (his banter with dog was pretty sad as well). Personally, I hated having to choose between alistar and him, but I suppose it makes for good writing and game plot.

I'm torn between feelings of pity and sympathy for him, and the "bad" feelings of betrayal and being wrongfully accused for most of the game - having assasins sent after you is never a good feeling. Still, what he did WAS terrible - even with his justification - but would YOU have done what he did, if you were in his shoes?

Sidenote: I wish a hardened alistar could come to accept him. Oh well.

[CalJones]

Not only another justification thread, but another Loghain thread! Oh boy.



Well, my justification is that I'm a dirty old woman and find Loghain way more attractive than Alistair, so he gets an automatic bump to my team after Landsmeet. (I do wish that you could spare him without making him a Warden, though, so that you can keep Alistair as your warden buddy and Loghain as an awesome general. It's not to be, though). It isn't simply that, though.



As for justifying him, there have been so many threads on this, but my observation is that Loghain is not evil, he is renegade. By that I mean that the choices he makes are not unlike the renegade choices available to Shepard in ME (haven't played ME2 yet - too busy with DA:O. It's next on my list though). Some of his actions are pretty questionable but he's always acting out of what *he* considers to be the greater good (specifically, saving Fereldan). Between the doggy banter, Anora's rosebush story and the whole cutscene you get if you (as opposed to Alistair) choose to execute him, I just can't bring myself to kill him. I find it more fitting to let him redeem himself, either by giving himself to the archdemon, or by helping restore the order he destroyed at Ostagar as a Warden recruiter.

[goofygoff]

CalJones wrote...



Well, my justification is that I'm a dirty old woman and find Loghain way more attractive than Alistair, so he gets an automatic bump to my team after Landsmeet.

This. *high five*



And good call on the Renegade Shepard comparison. Loghain did all the wrong things for the right reasons. Which isn't enough to completely forget all that he's done, but enough that I'm willing to give him that chance to atone.



Maybe I'd feel differently playing a City Elf (while not metagaming- ha, good luck!), but I've never been able to finish that playthrough.



OTOH, my HNF knows her history and cannot bring herself to execute the Hero of River Dane.

[Helios969]

He makes for a good antagonist. That's my justification for him being in the story. I don't feel bad in the least lopping his head off. Regardless of his mental instability and paranoia, he did a great many things - most for all the wrong reasons. I'd be willing to let him live in order to die fighting the Archdemon if it didn't result in Alistair leaving the party. The latter does irritate me that I can't even talk with Alistair to explain my plan.

[Gabey5]

"SOUTH REACH STANDS WITH LOGAIN, WE HAVE NO HOPE OTHERWISE"

[goofygoff]

Gabey5 wrote...

"SOUTH REACH STANDS WITH LOGAIN, WE HAVE NO HOPE OTHERWISE"

That guy's voice grates on my nerves even more than Jowan's. 

[krylo]

The_Abyss wrote...

Still, what he did WAS terrible - even with his justification - but would YOU have done what he did, if you were in his shoes?

Well, I probably wouldn't have blamed the Grey Wardens for Ostagar, thereby cutting off my potential military resources for fighting the blight, as well as making enemy of any surviving Grey Wardens, and causing even greater political instability in the country by making such polarizing claims. 

Other than that?  Maybe.

Pulling out of Ostagar was arguably a tactical decision and not a betrayal of the king.  It may have taken Alistair and the Warden too long to get to the top of the tower through all the Dark Spawn and the Ogre (and all the chest looting).   The battle may have been already lost by the time the light went up.  We already know the number of Dark Spawn was much greater than had been anticipated, and that they had flanked Cailin's troops, forcing the mages to withdraw early.  The battle plan was going to hell long before Loghain decided to pull out--and Loghain tried his damndest to keep Cailin from standing on the front lines.

So what he did there?  Yeah that was fine.

Naming himself regent?  Well, he believed, after seeing the size of the horde, that the country needed to be united under his military guidence.  I believe Sten points out the main issue with Loghain as it pertains to this, when he mentions that a Qunari can only be named a Qunoran Vehl only in death, else it would make them far too proud.  Loghain  committed the sin of Pride.  He believed he was the only one who could lead Ferelden through this, and in so believing made mistake upon mistake.  The better choice would have been to call a landsmeet immediately and swear his services as general to whomever was elected the new leader of the country--probably Anora, anyway.    Instead he usurped power with no say from the nobility and caused a political division that errupted into civil war.

Poisoning Eamon?  This was a mistake in that he crippled one of the few remaining true armires in Ferelden, and risked that his ploy being discovered would cause further divisions in the political arena.  It may have been a necessary risk given Eamon's politics, however, if he had proclaimed himself regent, but, again, the better choice would have been to call a landsmeet.  This was an error, once more, bred out of his pride--and his trust for Howe.

Alligning himself with Howe?  This was also a mistake in that it put him close with one of the most hated members of the nobility across Ferelden.  Speaking to nobles in the Gnawed Noble tavern shows that none of them liked Howe and he was almost universally despised.  One might make an argument that Howe was necessary to help Loghain with the politicking necessary to run the country--but this only holds if one also assumes that Anora would be incapable of this.  Something which the codexes and, if you spare him, Loghain himself rejects.  Anora could be even more manipulative than Howe, both of events and people, and come out smelling like roses, instead of smelling like... well Howe.

So, I guess at the end of the day?  No. I wouldn't have done anything that Loghain did, except maybe pulling out of Ostagar.  

Everything he did beyond Ostagar was reprehensible from political, moral, and even strategic view points in so far as I can tell.  Everything he did was not only horrible on a moral level, but also served to weaken his base of power and led to, at BEST a tied vote at the landsmeet (and why this allows him to call for executions, I do not know), and at worst near complete defeat (with only one vote for him).

However, all his mistakes can be explained by a mixture of pride, devotion to duty, and an inability to understand that politics do not work like the military chain of command.  Whether that absolves him of his crimes, or even justifies them, is, of course, up to the individual character and player.

CalJones wrote...

Well, my justification is that I'm a dirty old woman and find Loghain way more attractive than Alistair, so he gets an automatic bump to my team after Landsmeet.

There is something seriously and terribly wrong with you, you know that, right?

Modifié par krylo, 03 mars 2010 - 10:29 .

[SirOccam]

goofygoff wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

"SOUTH REACH STANDS WITH LOGAIN, WE HAVE NO HOPE OTHERWISE"

That guy's voice grates on my nerves even more than Jowan's. 

It's weird, but I kind of find it a little endearing the way his voice breaks when he says "hope."

[Shadvox]

I think something is being missed, and that is the fact that according to the knight you meet in Lothering directly after the battle at Ostagar, the Arle of Redcliffe has been ill for a few weeks—meaning Loghain had him poisoned well before that battle so was lying through his teeth when he 'reminded' king Cailin that his uncle's forces could be there to help fight if Cailin would delay the battle. (A thing that also has me laugh because it's really doubtful that the darkspawn would go, hey, no problem, we'll just gather our horde peacefully here and wait till you're ready to come fight. No, it's more like we'll just tour about killing everything in your lands till you're ready to draw us away from the innocents with this move, it's cool.)



Therefore, if the Arle was poisoned BEFORE the king fell (Redcliffe knights scattered to the winds already, no army to come assist at Ostagar,) it only makes sense that Loghain already had it in the works his plans to seize the throne...after the current king was dead because that's the only way it would work.



There is also the fact that news that Eamon was ill and his knight scattered looking for the ashes had not reached Cailin—messengers never reached him for 'some' reason. Seems pretty suspicious to me, that. Loghain's best buddy Howe also took out a noble family prior to Ostagar recall. Things were in the works.



Add to this that Loghain lies up a storm about everything to everyone at every chance throughout the adventure really has me asking why anyone would suddenly believe anything he says after he's been recruited? More like he's ONLY trying to save/regain his rep as the Hero of Fereldan than thing sincere.



Theme of this game is that darn near EVERYONE is lying to you about something because "Everyone is just out for themselves, you should learn that" —remember?



Okay, that's my two coppers...and why Loghain's actions will never be justified for me, his poor doggie story or not.

[Gold Dragon]

Meh. Loghain's Lack of survival is gauranteed for every Human Noble that I play. "Whatever Howe has Done, he should have been brought before the Seneschal (or whomever), not murdered in his own home."



Yeah, Loghain. Really. Then why didn't you take your own advice when you learned of the death of Bryce Cousland? Hypocrite. *Stabs Loghain with dull wooden spoon*

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I thought Loghain was a very interesting character and I felt really sad about having Alistair lop his head off. I was sad when he started to talk to Anora about how daughters are always little girls. I was really pissed off at Alistair. This playthrough, I'm going to harden Alistair and have Loghain in my team. The master strategist scores cookie points with me because I love strategy games. If it weren't for





*Spoiler*

enslaving the elves, Loghain really wouldn't have been an antagonist, but a person doing everything he could to save Ferelden.

[EnchantedEyes1]

*Spoilers warning*

The problem is that he's trying to save Ferelden from the phantoms in his mind, the Orlesians. Only time he finally admits that it is a true blight is at the Landsmeet and he continues to question whether the Grey Wardens are *really* the only ones who can end it. Arrogance and pride have taken over and blinded him.

I think what's intriguing to me about Loghain is that I can see the greatness that *used to be* before the madness took control of him. When I first spoke to him at Ostagar before the battle all my PCs could really see what a great man he was - he even told my CEF not to let people tell her she didn't belong.

I really wanted to like him, but his actions are inexcusable, at least to me.

Modifié par EnchantedEyes1, 04 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[Vicious]

YAY another Loghain thread.

Anyway I forgave Zevran, an assassin who physically tried to kill me, and guess what - I was nice to him, and he was loyal. Otherwise, he was more than happy to try and kill me.

Leliana was a court intriguer and tortured/murdered some people in her time. She's also quite crazy unless you harden her. Regardless, she is loyal unless i screw with a religious symbol and then am not pursuasive or threatening enough to shut her up.


I never HATED Loghain. Sure, he was a jackass and the prime antagonist, may have sent assassins and such after me and my friends, but i didn't HATE him. He never once felt irredeemable, and when he admitted defeat honorably, I knew that despite it all, he deserved a second chance.

And when I gave it to him, guess what - he was even more loyal than the previous 2, having no crisis moment where he will turn against you.


Not only that, but after reading the novels, I definetly felt as though the Warden was the Loghain to Alistair's Maric. The Warden is always willing to make the difficult choices and is the one responsible for hardening Alistair, just like Loghain did for Maric.

Modifié par Vicious, 04 mars 2010 - 02:43 .

[CalJones]

Vicious wrote...

Not only that, but after reading the novels, I definetly felt as though the Warden was the Loghain to Alistair's Maric. The Warden is always willing to make the difficult choices and is the one responsible for hardening Alistair, just like Loghain did for Maric.

This. Plus everything else you said.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

I have this situation with him.

You see, I'm quite forgiving person. I allowed Zevran to live, freed Jowan, etc. But when it comes to Loghain, I cannot force myself to let him live. Maybe it's the fact that he was working with that bloody bastard Howe. I'm simply unable to let Loghain walk out of the Landsmeet with his head on his shoulders.

[CybAnt1]

The only difficulty I've found in taking Loghain into my party ... and considered doing it, esp. on playthrough 3, as a "let's see how this plays out" perspective ... is other than the fact that I find it hard to forgive him, it kind of seems ... wrong to me ... that I can't take him without making Alistair leave. Alistair has all kinds of quirks & flaws, lack of self-confidence, wants others to make decisions for him, but ... I mean, he's good at heart. And I don't know how to "be" the kind of char that doesn't appreciate that.

So, anyhoo... all I know about Loghain as companion is what I've read in guides. So I find it interesting the gifts he likes are maps. Ever the tactician and military strategist! And you can build approval with him just like you do with the others ... although you won't have much chance given how late you get him. I find it strange you can take those last few moments in the game to build up the approval of someone who until recently was doing his darndest to kill you, and appears to have hated you vehemently.

(Yes, I know Zev tried to kill you too, but it wasn't out of hate, exactly why he switches his loyalties so suddenly.)

It's a lot like me discovering Sarevok was to be my new companion in ToB. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 04 mars 2010 - 06:37 .

[sylvanaerie]

Gabey5 wrote...

"SOUTH REACH STANDS WITH LOGAIN, WE HAVE NO HOPE OTHERWISE"

South Reach is Bryland not Ceorlic.

As for justifying Loghain I can't, I despise the character too much for a number of reasons I have posted on other threads.  He makes a great villian, and while I don't think HE thinks he's evil, the things he did were vile so I would beg to differ.  Regardless of what he did 30 years ago, he's the worse kind of menace to Ferelden at this point in time.  And let me add another reason I don't want him in my group I find the character physically unappealing as well. He's been beaten by the entire ugly forest (forget the damn stick).   Alistair is far more attractive and I prefer him.  If that makes me shallow, so be it.  I have no problems giving him a traitor's death at the Landsmeet.

In fact, killing the AD is anticlimatic for me after killing Loghain.

[CalJones]

Everyone has different tastes. When I first saw screens of Alistair and found out he was the romance option I was disappointed because I found his looks so bland. What makes him attractive is his personality. He has a certain charm to him. On the other hand, I find Loghain very attractive - I am older myself, so the ageing is OK with me and black hair + blue eyes = win.



But yes, that aside, I find it morally wrong to kill him. I would (in the Warden's shoes) want to know why he did what he did - I'd want to at least speak to him before passing judgement. I wouldn't just throw away Feredlan's greatest living hero for the sake of some petty revenge.



Everyone has different perspectives and all are valid within the confines of a game. It would be a boring world if we all had the same thoughts.

[Default137]

I've always been amused by people.

I mean, we accept Sten, a man who murdered an entire family in cold blood, unarmed people, innocent people, and even women and children in cold blood, and doesn't really feel any guilt for his actions. ( Also, from the way they make it sound this "family" was more like 15-20 people )

We accept Leliana, a crazy chick who used to seduce and then kill marks, as well as assassinate people who just got in her way, as well as in the way of her order, who knows how many innocent people she killed for Marjolene. And she doesn't even want to repent, or feel bad about what she does, she LIKES hurting/killing people.

We accept Zevran, a man who has killed, raped, tortured, and assassinated his way around Ferelden, a man who was hired to kill us, a man who for all intents and purposes could stab us in the back the second we turn around. While he doesn't exactly glorify murder as much as Leliana, he's obviously not phased to much by it.

We accept Shale, a Golem who killed its previous master.

We accept Morrigan, who its implied has hurt and injured people before, and has possibly invoked dark magic against people.

Yet we can't accept Loghain? A man whose only crime is his blind love for his country, and his irrational fear of Orlais? We behead a man on flimsy evidence and the words of a crazy old witch who has lied to us before just because he smirked funny in a cutscene? We kill a man who when faced with his own death tells his daughter he loves her, then says this is for the best, as it will redeem him, and if allowed to live tries everything he can to let him sacrifice himself so we can live?

Confusing to say the least, especially with all the evidence in the game that points to the fact he barely did anything ( there is a ton of stuff in game that points out that he did not betray Cailan, and that he did not cause the Mage Tower incident, meaning you are killing a man for uh, getting rid of a political rival and selling a few Elves to keep Denerim from falling, who is the real monster in that scenario, eh? )

Modifié par Default137, 04 mars 2010 - 10:07 .

[krylo]

Default137 wrote...

 killing a man for uh, getting rid of a political rival and selling a few Elves to keep Denerim from falling, who is the real monster in that scenario, eh? )

Yeah, you're right.  Slavery's no big deal.

I mean, they're just black pe--I mean elves, right? 

Modifié par krylo, 04 mars 2010 - 10:12 .

[Default137]

krylo wrote...

Default137 wrote...

 killing a man for uh, getting rid of a political rival and selling a few Elves to keep Denerim from falling, who is the real monster in that scenario, eh? )

Yeah, you're right.  Slavery's no big deal.

I mean, they're just black pe--I mean elves, right? 

Depends on the way you look at it.

Slavery is immoral and wrong, in our time, however this is not the 20th century, and Elves are looked at as little more then slaves even to the people of Ferelden. To a person like Loghain, when faced with the option of selling a race he barely considered human and saving his nation from destruction at the hands of a Civil War, a Blight, and Orlais, or falling because of petty mortality, he would have sold them every single time.

Oh, and before you say its obvious the people of Ferelden think of the Elves as people because you can use this evidence to turn the Landsmeet against Loghain, play a City Elf, you are treated like a second class citizen the entire game, merchants have higher buy/lower sell prices, people talk to Alistar rather then you, or call you basically a pet, you are yelled at, mocked, and basically called out by everyone you talk to as second class just because you have pointy ears, its fairly obvious what Ferelden thinks about its Elves, heck even the LANDSMEET call you out and mock you.

[Ken555]

But I would think differently were I and elf.

[krylo]

Default137 wrote...

Depends on the way you look at it.

Slavery is immoral and wrong, in our time, however this is not the 20th century, and Elves are looked at as little more then slaves even to the people of Ferelden. To a person like Loghain, when faced with the option of selling a race he barely considered human and saving his nation from destruction at the hands of a Civil War, a Blight, and Orlais, or falling because of petty mortality, he would have sold them every single time.

Oh, and before you say its obvious the people of Ferelden think of the Elves as people because you can use this evidence to turn the Landsmeet against Loghain, play a City Elf, you are treated like a second class citizen the entire game, merchants have higher buy/lower sell prices, people talk to Alistar rather then you, or call you basically a pet, you are yelled at, mocked, and basically called out by everyone you talk to as second class just because you have pointy ears dark skin, its fairly obvious what Ferelden thinks about its Elves, heck even the LANDSMEET call you out and mock you.

krylo wrote...

Yeah, you're right.  Slavery's no big deal.

I mean, they're just black pe--I mean elves, right? 

Modifié par krylo, 04 mars 2010 - 10:34 .

[Default137]

krylo wrote...

Default137 wrote...

Depends on the way you look at it.

Slavery is immoral and wrong, in our time, however this is not the 20th century, and Elves are looked at as little more then slaves even to the people of Ferelden. To a person like Loghain, when faced with the option of selling a race he barely considered human and saving his nation from destruction at the hands of a Civil War, a Blight, and Orlais, or falling because of petty mortality, he would have sold them every single time.

Oh, and before you say its obvious the people of Ferelden think of the Elves as people because you can use this evidence to turn the Landsmeet against Loghain, play a City Elf, you are treated like a second class citizen the entire game, merchants have higher buy/lower sell prices, people talk to Alistar rather then you, or call you basically a pet, you are yelled at, mocked, and basically called out by everyone you talk to as second class just because you have pointy ears, its fairly obvious what Ferelden thinks about its Elves, heck even the LANDSMEET call you out and mock you.

krylo wrote...

Yeah, you're right.  Slavery's no big deal.

I mean, they're just black pe--I mean elves, right? 

If you refuse to look at a section of history as a section of history, there is not much I can say to you.

Elves in Ferelden are thought of as little more then slaves, you might not like that fact, but its true, and to Loghain and most of the Landsmeet/Ferelden, they wouldn't even have been thought of as people, so yes, in the situation we are talking about, slavery is no big deal, except as a political matter, rather then an actual moral matter.

No offense, but trying to apply 20th century morality to a video game set in basically the dark ages is generally not the wisest thing to do, sure it makes choices easy, just be the good guy, but it doesn't make sense from a characters point of view, Noble Origin characters grew up thinking of the Elves as secondclass, and this is even stressed, even though it is also mentioned that they are nice to them. Dwarves treat each other like dirt, and actually do have something of a slave caste. Only the City Elves would really care about the Alienage issue with any real indignation or horror, and that is more because its happening to them then any real moral outrage. Heck, even the DALISH find the situation amusing, and think of it more as the stupid city elves getting what they deserve for not sticking up for themselves.

Modifié par Default137, 04 mars 2010 - 10:50 .

[krylo]

Default137 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Default137 wrote...

Depends on the way you look at it.

Slavery is immoral and wrong, in our time, however this is not the 20th century, and Elves are looked at as little more then slaves even to the people of Ferelden. To a person like Loghain, when faced with the option of selling a race he barely considered human and saving his nation from destruction at the hands of a Civil War, a Blight, and Orlais, or falling because of petty mortality, he would have sold them every single time.

Oh, and before you say its obvious the people of Ferelden think of the Elves as people because you can use this evidence to turn the Landsmeet against Loghain, play a City Elf, you are treated like a second class citizen the entire game, merchants have higher buy/lower sell prices, people talk to Alistar rather then you, or call you basically a pet, you are yelled at, mocked, and basically called out by everyone you talk to as second class just because you have pointy ears, its fairly obvious what Ferelden thinks about its Elves, heck even the LANDSMEET call you out and mock you.

krylo wrote...

Yeah, you're right.  Slavery's no big deal.

I mean, they're just black pe--I mean elves, right? 

If you refuse to look at a section of history as a section of history, there is not much I can say to you.

Elves in Ferelden are thought of as slaves, you might not like that fact, but its true, and to Loghain and most of the Landsmeet/Ferelden, they wouldn't even have been thought of as people, so yes, in the situation we are talking about, slavery is no big deal, except as a political matter, rather then an actual moral matter.

No offense, but trying to apply 20th century morality to a video game set in basically the dark ages is generally not the wisest thing to do, sure it makes choices easy, just be the good guy, but it doesn't make sense from a characters point of view, Noble Origin characters grew up thinking of the Elves as secondclass, and this is even stressed, even though it is also mentioned that they are nice to them. Dwarves treat each other like dirt, and actually do have something of a slave caste. Only the City Elves would really care about the Alienage issue with any real indignation or horror, and that is more because its happening to them then any real moral outrage. Heck, even the DALISH find the situation amusing, and think of it more as the stupid city elves getting what they deserve for not sticking up for themselves.

Just gonna throw this out there--but my HMN made sweet sweet love to the mother of an alienage elf.

Poor Sweet Iona.

But for seriously--you can't justify wrongs done just becuase of a time zone.  If everyone in the 1800s had thought "Oh hai, gais, it's the 1800s.  SLAVERY IS TOTALLY A-OK AND ALL!" well, we'd still have slaves, wouldn't we?

Tearing apart families, putting them on auction, and sending them off to work slave labor was wrong in the 1600s.  It was wrong in the 1800s, it's wrong today, and it's wrong in Ferelden.  It's even wrong in the Tevinter Imperium, regardless of what their laws state.  I'd even argue it's MORE wrong in the Tevinter Imperium, considering the things we learn about them through the codex--like how they've powered incredible magical rituals with the life force of slaves in the past.  And we're given pretty heavy hints that they aren't above that even today--after all that's exactly what the slaver offers you.

Brutal and unthinking racism is the same no matter what era or fictional world it exists in, and your attempts to sell it off as some kind of minor thing do you no justice, good sir.