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[sylvanaerie]

Default137 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Default137 wrote...

Depends on the way you look at it.

Slavery is immoral and wrong, in our time, however this is not the 20th century, and Elves are looked at as little more then slaves even to the people of Ferelden. To a person like Loghain, when faced with the option of selling a race he barely considered human and saving his nation from destruction at the hands of a Civil War, a Blight, and Orlais, or falling because of petty mortality, he would have sold them every single time.

Oh, and before you say its obvious the people of Ferelden think of the Elves as people because you can use this evidence to turn the Landsmeet against Loghain, play a City Elf, you are treated like a second class citizen the entire game, merchants have higher buy/lower sell prices, people talk to Alistar rather then you, or call you basically a pet, you are yelled at, mocked, and basically called out by everyone you talk to as second class just because you have pointy ears, its fairly obvious what Ferelden thinks about its Elves, heck even the LANDSMEET call you out and mock you.

krylo wrote...

Yeah, you're right.  Slavery's no big deal.

I mean, they're just black pe--I mean elves, right? 

If you refuse to look at a section of history as a section of history, there is not much I can say to you.

Elves in Ferelden are thought of as little more then slaves, you might not like that fact, but its true, and to Loghain and most of the Landsmeet/Ferelden, they wouldn't even have been thought of as people, so yes, in the situation we are talking about, slavery is no big deal, except as a political matter, rather then an actual moral matter.

No offense, but trying to apply 20th century morality to a video game set in basically the dark ages is generally not the wisest thing to do, sure it makes choices easy, just be the good guy, but it doesn't make sense from a characters point of view, Noble Origin characters grew up thinking of the Elves as secondclass, and this is even stressed, even though it is also mentioned that they are nice to them. Dwarves treat each other like dirt, and actually do have something of a slave caste. Only the City Elves would really care about the Alienage issue with any real indignation or horror, and that is more because its happening to them then any real moral outrage. Heck, even the DALISH find the situation amusing, and think of it more as the stupid city elves getting what they deserve for not sticking up for themselves.

Umm if you bring up the slavery issue in the Landsmeet, the Bann from Dragon's Peak gets irate.  Its not a non issue to the nobles (maybe not as major as some of the others) but it IS an issue.  Loghain was BRIBED and quite richly so he could fund the civil war his actions escalated to sell those elves into slavery.  Even if they object on an intellectual level they are still offended by this.  I do not know if its more offense at his being so crooked he would sell Ferelden citizens or that he would just take the dirty money to look the other way.  NO one in the game thinks the slavery is amusing least of all the Dalish who are ALL about the freedom for elves.   Where did you pick up a dialogue tree that leads to some Dalish giggling over the situation?

And yea, this is my biggest issue with Loghain.  Its not the final nail but its a huge one for me.

[ejoslin]

Default137 wrote...

Oh, and before you say its obvious the people of Ferelden think of the Elves as people because you can use this evidence to turn the Landsmeet against Loghain, play a City Elf, you are treated like a second class citizen the entire game, merchants have higher buy/lower sell prices, people talk to Alistar rather then you, or call you basically a pet, you are yelled at, mocked, and basically called out by everyone you talk to as second class just because you have pointy ears, its fairly obvious what Ferelden thinks about its Elves, heck even the LANDSMEET call you out and mock you.

That completely is NOT my experience on an Elf, city or Dalish.  Everyone talks to my warden, NOT Alistair.  Prices are the same -- in fact, the only different price is Gorim to the Dwarf noble.  As far as talking to the nobles go, only the HN is talked to differently, and not so much so.

Of course, what you said about Zevran in your previous post is ALSO almost entirely, but not quite completely, incorrect (hmmmm, he may join your party, and is hired to kill you).  But this probably isn't the post to go into all that.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 01:09 .

[Saberdark]

On the topic of the Elves being sold into slavery, in my game Loghain gave an explanation along the lines of the alienage being unable to be defended during an attack due to the damage from the riots and that if it was attacked he believed all the elves would die anyway. He implied that the money from selling them into slavery was being used to defend them. This threw me for a bit since as far as justifications go that isn't such a bad one. If Ferelden's leading general thinks that something is undefendable inside the capital city, he's probably right.

[krylo]

'course during the actual attack it turns out he's wrong as the alienage is the only place you actually find living citizens.

[Saberdark]

Well obviously, but we don't know that yet. Kind of ironic though, isn't it.

[krylo]

Kind of, but he's kind of got a bad batting average as far as tactics and strategy go from what we actually see in the game. Like, everyone calls him this amazing general, but then his strategy falls apart completely against the dark spawn in Ostagar, and then he gets the defensibility of Denerim completely backwards, as well as over estimating the strength of his armies during the civil war (Howe telling him that they won't have enough troops for the dark spawn if the war keeps on after Loghain basically says it's going fine).



I do hope he does better in the books.

[Saberdark]

Based on what we actually see in the game, maybe. But our characters (mine at least) knows of Loghain's reputation as a strategist.



I'd give his strategy a pass for Ostagar since Cailan overrode most of it and there was no real predicting the numbers of the darkspawn horde. His plan probably had as much chance of success as any other. At the point at which it matters we don't know that he got Denerim backwards and it was only undefended anyway because we marched the whole army in the opposite direction. As for the civil war, he was likely just trying to calm Howe down. He likely knew as well as anyone that the troop levels were getting low (which is of course why he wanted to recruit the Dwarves to his side). But there wasn't exactly much he could do about that.

[krylo]

Saberdark wrote...

Based on what we actually see in the game, maybe. But our characters (mine at least) knows of Loghain's reputation as a strategist.

Yeah, but it's not what we SEE.  It's kinda like finding the worst player you can, sticking the game to nightmare, and making them roll up human noble.  Sure, everyone SAYS the HN is this amazing fighter, but then you get to watch as 
s/he gets munched on by everything.

Also: Cailin didn't over ride any of Loghain's plan.  What happened was that the darkspawn were more organized than Loghain had predicted because of the AD, and were able to flank the troops in a manner that was fully unexpected, thus forcing the mages to quit the battle early, the horde was much larger than he had anticipated, and the Wardens probably took too long to light the signal with the whole tower of darkspawn issue.

I give him a pass on that one too.

Your other explanations also work, of course.

It's just ironic that everything we see of him is completely opposite of what we HEAR of him.

[HoonDing]

I suppose Huntington's Chorea would be an apt justification for Loghain's actions.

[sylvanaerie]

krylo wrote...

Saberdark wrote...

Based on what we actually see in the game, maybe. But our characters (mine at least) knows of Loghain's reputation as a strategist.

Yeah, but it's not what we SEE.  It's kinda like finding the worst player you can, sticking the game to nightmare, and making them roll up human noble.  Sure, everyone SAYS the HN is this amazing fighter, but then you get to watch as 
s/he gets munched on by everything.

Also: Cailin didn't over ride any of Loghain's plan.  What happened was that the darkspawn were more organized than Loghain had predicted because of the AD, and were able to flank the troops in a manner that was fully unexpected, thus forcing the mages to quit the battle early, the horde was much larger than he had anticipated, and the Wardens probably took too long to light the signal with the whole tower of darkspawn issue.

I give him a pass on that one too.

Your other explanations also work, of course.

It's just ironic that everything we see of him is completely opposite of what we HEAR of him.

**Spoilers below***

ROFL your post made me giggle (the part about the HN being munched on as i can't highlight it).  I have to agree.  I see nothing of his sterling leadership skills he repeatedly says throughout the game.  I tend to think River Dane was a fluke and he started believing it himself after all these years of hearing others say what a great general he is.  Since I haven't read the books, only seen and heard what he does in the game, I can perceive my PC to be skeptical of his so called stategic prowess.  At best she would just have vague legends of deeds he did long before she was born.  Legends he fails to live up to once she meets him.

For me treachery from someone you trust and admire is a vile crime.  Unforgiveable.  Its one reason Howe makes me see red for the little you get of him in the game. 

Great generals don't ignore intelligence (there is a scout in Ostagar who will tell you this was more than just a large raid, that everyone is going to die).  Also there is a HONKING huge hole in Ishal's floor...Loghain had to have known it was there.  Did he just neglect to mention it to everyone at the war council or was there an ulterior motive there? Nor do great generals abandon a field and open the entire nation to the advance of an enemy to run sieze the throne to "protect" his country against a threat perceived in his own mind. IF he felt Anora was a strong queen why did he feel the need to grab the throne?  Because he didn't.  He thought his legend would ensure that HE and HE alone could stop the blight.  I'd love Loghain to try to rationalize this to Arl Wulff who lost his sons to the Blight Loghain refuses to see.  His own paranoia (and ego) about the Orlesians kept him shooting down asking for help.  Cailan does mention waiting till they get more GWs/troops from Orlais.  Even Anora broaches the subject and Loghain shoots her down, insisting he can do it.  He kept telling Cailan that he was a fool to trust in legends. He wasn't listening to his own advice. 

Only a fool would bar the door to the police who want to stop a man in your home from raping your wife and killing your children.  By preventing the GWs from coming into Ferelden he basically just opened to door to the killer in his own backyard.

Perhaps he's different in the books, he has to have been a good man sometime in his life to be labled a hero and to have so many admire him.  I can even admit that. However, his irrational fears of a nonexistant enemy have made him a greater danger to Ferelden than any Orlesian. 

Redemption implies someone actually WANTS to be redeemed, and I understand at the end he if you turn him into dragon kibble, he does express regret for what he has done but as I see NONE of this in the Landsmeet, I can't justify sparing him without (me) metagaming. I see him passing the buck (to Howe, admittedly a vile person) and rationalizing everything in a way he thinks the nobles will go for.  Doesn't show any remorse or regret that I can see. Hell even Jowan manned up and accepted responsibility for his own actions at Redcliffe.  Because of his flaws I find him a well written and complex character (and a HUGELY tragic one) but that doesn't save him from my sword at the Landsmeet.

These are of course just my thoughts on the matter.

[Shadvox]

Loghain's claim that it's okay to sell elves is because they'll have a better chance at survival...by selling them to a BLOOD MAGE? One he's got a direct contract with...?

Liar, liar, pants on fire! Off with your head, ha!

[CalJones]

Caladrius (I think his name is) - the blood mage in question - is one of the slavers, and presumably not the actual recepient of said slaves. Not that I agree with the whole slavery thing - I tend to think of that as Loghain's one dick move. But desperate times call for desperate measures. The coffers have run dry, there's not enough soldiers and he needs money from somewhere. Howe was involved in the whole Alienage scene and almost certainly suggested it (much as he suggested hiring Zevran). Given that there was sickness as well as riots in the Alienage, I can't really blame Loghain for thinking it couldn't be saved. And if the elves couldn't be saved, they may as well be of use.



Now, as for the regency - my feeling is that Loghain didn't just take it because he felt he was the only person who could save Fereldan, but also because he is trying to protect Anora from being deposed. With Cailan dead, he knows her claim to the throne has been weakened (which is another reason I can't believe he'd arrange for Cailan's death deliberately) and others will try and stake a claim. He obviously knows of Alistair, and he knows that Arl Eamon is a meddling son of a bronto, so naturally he would assume the worst (correctly, as it turns out). Loghain, as regent, is a bigger obstacle to overcome than Anora on her own. If you opt to execute him yourself at Landsmeet, he will say to Anora that he tried to protect her. If you recruit him, he'll also say that she's a good queen and formidable in her own right. His regency is never about power, for him - it's clearly a temporary measure.

[goofygoff]

krylo wrote...

'course during the actual attack it turns out he's wrong as the alienage is the only place you actually find living citizens.

He's only wrong because the Warden shows up and either convinces them to defend their homes when the darkspawn come knocking, or tells them to hide while it's taken care of for them. 

[krylo]

No.

He's wrong because it's obviously the most defensible place in the city, both from what we hear in the games and from what actually happens. It's, firstly, completely walled off from the rest of the city with only two entrances, one of which is over a bridged choke point, the other is walled in choke point. Both have portcullises, though neither is closed when we get there. One also has a secondary wooden gate.

Further, if it weren't defensible every elf would have been dead by the time we got there. Explain why everyone in every other part of the city is already dead, even though elves aren't allowed to own weapons, and, unlike humans whom look up to members of their race with martial prowess, look down upon those of their race that have learned to fight, whether with bow or sword.

Basically you walk into a situation where everyone in the city is dead, EXCEPT the worst equipped and worst trained people in the entire city, whom are only alive because the natural defenses of that part of the city had held back the horde long enough for you to get there, and we are to believe it was the least defensible area?

The Grey Warden's arrival certainly allowed them to live longer than they otherwise would have, but they still had the most defensible area in the city, having already lived longer than everyone in every other part of the city.

Modifié par krylo, 04 mars 2010 - 09:20 .

[Atranes]

Re slavery, it's quite clear from the nobles' reactions at the Landsmeet that slavery is a big no-no in Ferelden. This applies even to otherwise second-class citizens like elves. So, this is, to me, the biggest mark against Loghain. Sort of a willing to sacrifice what Ferelden stands for to save Ferelden logic.



Whether I let him live or not depends on my origin. HN kills him because of his association with Howe, and because the Couslands aren't that hung up on the anti-Orlais thing. Dwarves generally let him live - either because he's pretty good at the game (noble) or a successful commoner (commoner). I'm torn about my elves, because the slavery is a huge deal. I think my current elf blood mage will let him live, because he'll enjoy turning the tables on Loghain with respect to slavery.



As for justifying him, I actually find Loghain's dialogue in Return to Ostagar to be surprisingly insightful. Loghain made conscious, rational decisions with respect to the battle of Ostagar. And the voice-acting for when you discover Cailan's letters with the Empress of Orlais is really well done. (That ba****d!) I actually find RTO sort of boring with Alistair or the others, because it's just "let's find uber items." With Loghain in the party, it's more character development.

[Barachiel]

I used to be a Loghain sympathizer myself, in all honesty. At first, I hated him for what he did, but I spared him for Anora's sake in my first playthrough, and talking to him, I started to see him as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. To my eyes, he made a decision at Ostagar, based on Cailan's rash actions, and followed that decision through to the end.



Then on subsequent playthroughs, two things became clear.



1) the knight at Lothering, who tells you of the Arl's sickness, specifically says it started BEFORE the king died.



2) Arl Howe, Loghain's right hand man, wasn't just making an opportunistic coup before Ostagar, he was doing so with Loghain's backing. He was systematically cutting off supporters of the crown by removing Arl Eamon and Teryn Cousland, the two most loyal of Cailan's lieutenants.



For all Loghain's talk of doing what was necessary, the fact remains, he was planning treason and regicide *BEFORE* Cailan's "fantasies of glory" let him "with no choice."



Regardless of what you think of King Cailan, it's clear Loghain made his "not-choice" long before the point of no return. Maybe he intended to call it off at the last minute of Cailan suddenly saw reason, but honestly... I don't think so. I think he'd had enough of Cailan in general and justified it as doing what was best for Ferelden.



I'm not sure I can call Loghain "Evil" in the classical villain sense of the word, but he gave into paranoia and corruption by surrounding himself with men like Howe. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and he paved his way very, very well. No matter how noble he thought his motives were, it was ultimately his actions that condemn him.

[Kimarous]

I'm somewhat on the fence with Loghain. In my unfinished main playthrough, I plan on arranging Anora/Alistair's marriage, sparing Loghain to join my ranks, refusing Morrigan's ritual (on account of very Duncan-esque "We must stop the Blight!" ideals), and letting Loghain take the final blow in order to reclaim his honour and remain a hero in the eyes of the people.

[Reaverwind]

Barachiel wrote...

I used to be a Loghain sympathizer myself, in all honesty. At first, I hated him for what he did, but I spared him for Anora's sake in my first playthrough, and talking to him, I started to see him as a Well-Intentioned Extremist. To my eyes, he made a decision at Ostagar, based on Cailan's rash actions, and followed that decision through to the end.

Then on subsequent playthroughs, two things became clear.

1) the knight at Lothering, who tells you of the Arl's sickness, specifically says it started BEFORE the king died.

2) Arl Howe, Loghain's right hand man, wasn't just making an opportunistic coup before Ostagar, he was doing so with Loghain's backing. He was systematically cutting off supporters of the crown by removing Arl Eamon and Teryn Cousland, the two most loyal of Cailan's lieutenants.

For all Loghain's talk of doing what was necessary, the fact remains, he was planning treason and regicide *BEFORE* Cailan's "fantasies of glory" let him "with no choice."

Regardless of what you think of King Cailan, it's clear Loghain made his "not-choice" long before the point of no return. Maybe he intended to call it off at the last minute of Cailan suddenly saw reason, but honestly... I don't think so. I think he'd had enough of Cailan in general and justified it as doing what was best for Ferelden.

I'm not sure I can call Loghain "Evil" in the classical villain sense of the word, but he gave into paranoia and corruption by surrounding himself with men like Howe. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, and he paved his way very, very well. No matter how noble he thought his motives were, it was ultimately his actions that condemn him.

Don't forget that Loghain had scouts out in the Wilds, reporting to him. Not only that, Cailin himself suggests waiting for reinforcements, an idea that Loghain shoots down. Then, there's that hole in the Tower of Ishal..... As someone mentioned before, only a ******-poor general ignores intelligence. If Cailin is to be faulted for anything, it's for trusting Loghain when he shouldn't have, and not sticking to his guns on getting reinforcements. Loghain may be a brilliant tatician, but as a strategist, he's a complete failure.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 05 mars 2010 - 12:34 .

[krylo]

Loghain knew about the hole.



If you turn around and head back (in a last ditch effort to escape), you can talk to a guard by the tower of Ishal who informs you Loghain's men have discovered and are exploring the lower levels. RtO shows us exactly what they would have found--a series of tunnels leading to the battlefield.

[sylvanaerie]

krylo wrote...

Loghain knew about the hole.

If you turn around and head back (in a last ditch effort to escape), you can talk to a guard by the tower of Ishal who informs you Loghain's men have discovered and are exploring the lower levels. RtO shows us exactly what they would have found--a series of tunnels leading to the battlefield.

Yea, my Dalish was conscripted MUCH against her will and tried to find a fence to crawl over and encountered one of the tower guards at the Ishal gate.  Thats how I know Loghain knew about the hole.  Funny how his men were "supposed to be securing the area" yet left that thing wide open to the battlefield.

[Aynslie]

eh...I don't justify Loghain. I mean Ostagar was HIS plan that he retreated from. He refused to wait for the Orlesians to help, so HIS plan put the king and half the army in the gorge waiting for HIS army to flank the enemy. Instead he retreats "saving" his army and allowing a lot of good men to die who had no choice but to be there to stop the blight and try to save their families. He also poisons Arl Eamon who was "sick" before the King died so it seems to me that the whole Ostagar thing is premeditated. And sending the assassin after my GW made it personal. I can't convince myself to spare him. Although I do think that sparing him is the worse thing you could do to him. Once he is a GW and sees that there in indeed an archdemon and he gets to really find out how much he just screwed over Ferelden is just sweet sweet. But that would mean losing Alistair and I'm not willing to trade him for Loghain....ever. From a gamer perspective I hate getting characters that late in the game anyhow where I can't manually level them. eck.

Even if his motives were "good" it doesn't justify his actions. No one thinks "I am going to destroy the country I love muahahhahahahahaha!" But in trying to save Ferelden he almost destroys it. Besides I don't think I could trust him to have my back. I mean he did leave the KING to die whats to stop him from leaving me? There would be some major trust issues.

[CalJones]

Regarding the Tower of Ishal and Arl Eamon's sickness, David Gaider goes into it here:



http://social.biowar...83297/18#591250



Personally I think Eamon had it coming. I hate that SOB.



Kimarous - that's my favourite ending and is well worth the effort. Make sure you harden Alistair if you want to do that, otherwise he won't marry Anora. Do NOT let him duel Loghain himself.

[Steve236]

Let me ask you this, How many of you play RTS? If you do how many times have you let troops to die so you can save the majority of your force? If you have guess what your just as bad as loghain.

[mhendon]

My first playthrough I missed the convo with him at Ostagar, so when I went back and actually talked to him, I was blown away. He seemed like a really respectable and personable man. I honestly liked him as he was then and simply could not believe that this was the same Loghain kingkiller, paranoid backstabing liar. I did not like him, but I understood that he honestly, with every fiber of his being believed that what he was doing the right thing. I wanted to spare him for mercy's sake alone, but that would mean losing Alistair...so I turned my back and let him kill him. Truly the only decision in the game I felt bad about having to make. Kudos bioware, you made me hate myself. lol

[CalJones]

Yes, I think it speaks much about him that he will actually come out of his tent to speak to a lowly warden recruit. Depending on your race/class and replies, he can be very encouraging as well.

Killing him (in my first runthrough) was the only act that has made me feel really, really awful. (I haven't ever tried killing Connor, btw). I would rather lose Alistair than do that again.