153 réponses à ce sujet

[limzz]

   I made this account just so I could post this and am unfamiliar with these forums so I would like to apologize if this point had already been made.
   I'm a huge Mass Effect fan but one critical issue for me after completing my first playthrough of ME2 is that Paragon and Renegade points seem simplistic and uneccessary. Making even less sense than the Persuade skill from KOTOR, I don't understand why my character shouldn't be able to say something (red/dark blue renegade/paragon options) simply because I haven't earned enough points for performing actions which the devs labeled explicitly 'good' or 'bad.' The choices in the game are often deep into the gray area and many "Renegade" choices could easily be made by a good person, and vice versa. Not long into the game, I found myself making decisions I would never actually make were I Shepard in real life, but needed the Paragon points to avoid losing out on content or rewards.
   The decisions you make in the game should certainly have their appropriate effects on the storyline and characters, however they shouldn't be defined as good or bad. Perhaps you played the entire game as a selfish and merciless individual, and at the end reach some sort of epiphany and decide to make a "good" choice. The choices you make should define your character but not force future decisions you must make. Because I felt Garrus deserved revenge on the man who basically murdered his entire squad, I missed out on Paragon points which would have allowed me to end the conflict between Jack and Miranda. Situations like this really made the game less enjoyable.
   There's no real option to play in the middle unless you are willing to miss out on certain conversational options which to me is unfair. Play completey Renegade and half the time you're a total dick and for the rest of the time just someone who believes in justice and taking care of business. Play completely Paragon and you can make some good rational decisions, while frequenty your are simply a weak pansy who would let their family's killer off the hook after a stern talking to.

Also, if anyone knows a save game editor that allows changing paragon and renegade points so I can max out at the beginning of my next playthrough that would be awesome.

Modifié par limzz, 03 mars 2010 - 08:24 .

[Octorox]

 Agree. I think they should make it so each character judges you individually (Like I've heard DA does)

[Aeclypso]

Alternatives to your point: Keep the Paragon/Renegade points for Mass Effect 3, but do not allow them to influence your decisions i.e. a full Paragon Bar with a depleted Renegade Bar will still enable Renegade decisions... Yes?

[limzz]

@Aeclypso Good point, that would work too.

[sodacatkun]

yeah i think itd be better being like dragon age

[FKA_Servo]

Aeclypso wrote...

Alternatives to your point: Keep the Paragon/Renegade points for Mass Effect 3, but do not allow them to influence your decisions i.e. a full Paragon Bar with a depleted Renegade Bar will still enable Renegade decisions... Yes?

Definitely this.

It would be so much more gratifying to be able to make the decisions that seem appropriate to the situation without worrying about screwing yourself further down the storyline because you couldn't charm your way out of an impossible situation.

Think of a way to reward paragons/renegades, for sure, but punish the player if they want to be the bad cop occasionally.

[boardnfool86]

they should just add a persuade skill that is built up through either charm or intimidate, so you can be as renegade or paragon as you want without worrying about repercussions down the road. I prefer to do what I please and I hate the worry I get when choosing renegade options that may lead me to not having enough points



also I just want to point out that although you don't ever need a full bar, the fact that timing plays a role in such a way that you may need a full bar if you save certain missions til the end is frustrating

[Qario]

Paragon and renegade are more than just points you aquire. The game, both ME1 and ME2, the whole story has 2 main directions, and these are paragon and renegade. Looking at the big picture taking the paragon path in the game will probably (hopefully) result in all the races fighting together against the reapers, this theory is streangthened by the geth reprogramming, saving the rachnii queen and saving the council. The renegade path in the game will probably show how humanity alone defeats the reapers.... somehow.

[Dethateer]

Qario wrote...

Paragon and renegade are more than just points you aquire. The game, both ME1 and ME2, the whole story has 2 main directions, and these are paragon and renegade. Looking at the big picture taking the paragon path in the game will probably (hopefully) result in all the races fighting together against the reapers, this theory is streangthened by the geth reprogramming, saving the rachnii queen and saving the council. The renegade path in the game will probably show how humanity alone defeats the reapers.... somehow.

And that is a good thing... how? You're forgetting that if you're a paragon when it comes to bringing species together (SPECIES, NOT RACES), but a renegade when, say, interrogating someone, you're f**ked when the conflicts on the ship come up.

[Gorn Kregore]

They should have kept the intimidate and the charm options in ME2. Or else I'm gonna have to start doing that glitch to get infinite renegade/paragon points.

[limzz]

Heartlocker wrote...

The only thing that DISTURBED me with the Paragon/Renegade system in ME2 is that you are basically forced to be a total hero or a complete ****.

Why do you ask?

To resolve ****ty arguments with squadmates nearing the end. I can't apply my own morals or feelings to the game because I am forced to make decisions by BioWare.

Yahtzee's review about ME2 was SPOT-ON.

LMAO just watched that review. My thoughts exactly.
www.n4g.com/pc/News-478225.aspx

[Qario]

Dethateer wrote...

Qario wrote...

Paragon and renegade are more than just points you aquire. The game, both ME1 and ME2, the whole story has 2 main directions, and these are paragon and renegade. Looking at the big picture taking the paragon path in the game will probably (hopefully) result in all the races fighting together against the reapers, this theory is streangthened by the geth reprogramming, saving the rachnii queen and saving the council. The renegade path in the game will probably show how humanity alone defeats the reapers.... somehow.

And that is a good thing... how? You're forgetting that if you're a paragon when it comes to bringing species together (SPECIES, NOT RACES), but a renegade when, say, interrogating someone, you're f**ked when the conflicts on the ship come up.

It's not supposed to be a "good" or "bad" thing, it's just how the story plays out. If you import characters you wont have any problem with paragon/renegade points. But I know it is when creating a new game, for example I couldn't solve Jack/Miranda argument when I tested the new game, I chose Miranda's side and Jack survived the last mission as unloyal, how? I didn't pick her for anything. But I had enough points to solve the Tali/Legion argument, but if you don't, just do the same, don't choose the disloyal one for any assignment at the suicide mission.

Back to the point, bioware has ran with this system for 2 games now, it's probably one of the things that separate ME from other games, I highly doubt it would be removed for ME3, probably changed, but not removed.

Modifié par Qario, 03 mars 2010 - 08:47 .

[Rynozeros]

or possibly have a neutral option (green? purple?) if you manage to keep both paragon and renegade in the same section of both bars

those who say oh i cannot charm my way out of this situation this sucks

of course it sucks but it is fair in life you cant charm your way out of every situation

i still think neutral option would be a good choice i.e. for miri/jack let them both know your not gonna take sides but your certainly not gonna let them kill each other either

[nicodeemus327]

Meh, I disagree. I like the way it works. It forces you to make choices. If anything I'd want more of those kind of situations.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 03 mars 2010 - 08:45 .

[TJSolo]

Dethateer wrote...

Qario wrote...

Paragon and renegade are more than just points you aquire. The game, both ME1 and ME2, the whole story has 2 main directions, and these are paragon and renegade. Looking at the big picture taking the paragon path in the game will probably (hopefully) result in all the races fighting together against the reapers, this theory is streangthened by the geth reprogramming, saving the rachnii queen and saving the council. The renegade path in the game will probably show how humanity alone defeats the reapers.... somehow.

And that is a good thing... how? You're forgetting that if you're a paragon when it comes to bringing species together (SPECIES, NOT RACES), but a renegade when, say, interrogating someone, you're f**ked when the conflicts on the ship come up.

That part of the immersion of the game; you as Shepard are making morale calls, shaping the galaxy.
You can play it Renegade, Paragon, or a mix. You can be a Paragon or Renagade and still make any decision you like is most situations.
But if you want to be indecisive then when a situation comes up that truly needs a decision made; then indecisiveness you used up until that point will not be enough.
For those that played ME1 know that there were several encounters that made you check your conversational skills before you could resolve them.

You can be wishy washy interrogating someone in ME2 and STILL get the answers you want.
While you can't be wishy washy in ME2 and expect to control all volatile situations.

[Dethateer]

So, you're basically saying that if I'm willing to execute someone in cold blood, but also help a person in need, I'm indecisive, and therefore incapable of telling two squaddies to STFU and focus on the mission?

[sedrikhcain]

Heartlocker wrote...

The only thing that DISTURBED me with the Paragon/Renegade system in ME2 is that you are basically forced to be a total hero or a complete ****.

Why do you ask?

To resolve ****ty arguments with squadmates nearing the end. I can't apply my own morals or feelings to the game because I am forced to make decisions by BioWare.

Yahtzee's review about ME2 was SPOT-ON.

Don't agree w/OP but this point does resonate with me, for the same reasons that I don't want decisions I made waaaay back in ME1 to decide whether it's possible for me to "beat the game" in ME3.

[Rexx0rz]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Meh, I disagree. I like the way it works. It forces you to make choices. If anything I'd want more of those kind of situations.

i agree with you completely 

[AlanC9]

TJSolo wrote...

You can play it Renegade, Paragon, or a mix. You can be a Paragon or Renagade and still make any decision you like is most situations.
But if you want to be indecisive then when a situation comes up that truly needs a decision made; then indecisiveness you used up until that point will not be enough.

Huh? How is it "indecisive" to simply ignore the Paragon/Renegade alignment meter?

[TJSolo]

Dethateer wrote...

So, you're basically saying that if I'm willing to execute someone in cold blood, but also help a person in need, I'm indecisive, and therefore incapable of telling two squaddies to STFU and focus on the mission?

You can pick either since the two are different situations.
Picking one option over the other builds up as Paragon or Renegade. The amount you have of either shows how consistent and decisive you have been with the choices you can make in the game.

Having neither of them high shows that you aren't decisive enough for all situations.
You can tell the shrews whatever you like but if you don't put in the time to actually commit Shepards personality. Shepard just wouldn't be strong enough to get out of that situation without some repercussions.

ME is an exercise in making choices and seeing repercussions from those choices..

[Vena_86]

You simply should always have the possibility to choose either renegade, paragon or neutral for your answers.
This system and other things in ME2 make you play too much of a prefabricated character (like in a straight shooter) rather than a character that you define by your self (RPG) which also reduces the replay value as there are basicly just two effective ways to play ME2.

Modifié par Vena_86, 03 mars 2010 - 09:15 .

[Dethateer]

TJSolo wrote...

You can pick either since the two are different situations.
Picking one option over the other builds up as Paragon or Renegade. The amount you have of either shows how consistent and decisive you have been with the choices you can make in the game.

Having neither of them high shows that you aren't decisive enough for all situations.
You can tell the shrews whatever you like but if you don't put in the time to actually commit Shepards personality. Shepard just wouldn't be strong enough to get out of that situation without some repercussions.

So, no one could ever be strong enough to give orders without being either completely good or completely evil? What?

TJSolo wrote...


ME is an exercise in making choices and seeing repercussions from those choices..

No, that's the Witcher you're thinking of....

[rabbitchannel]

limzz wrote...

Heartlocker wrote...

The only thing that DISTURBED me with the Paragon/Renegade system in ME2 is that you are basically forced to be a total hero or a complete ****.

Why do you ask?

To resolve ****ty arguments with squadmates nearing the end. I can't apply my own morals or feelings to the game because I am forced to make decisions by BioWare.

Yahtzee's review about ME2 was SPOT-ON.

LMAO just watched that review. My thoughts exactly.
www.n4g.com/pc/News-478225.aspx

Just finished watching. Normally I don't read ME 2 reviews because it's all a bunch of whining but I actually liked this one. Especially the part about navigating planets with jet packs with wolves shooting lasers out of their mouths. Wouldn't be so bad, actually!

Modifié par rabbitchannel, 03 mars 2010 - 09:25 .