153 réponses à ce sujet

[BrandNewMan]

TJSolo wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Meh, I disagree. I like the way it works. It forces you to make choices. If anything I'd want more of those kind of situations.

It influences many people to make the same polarized decisions over and over again. Paragon? Top-right. Renegade? Bottom-right. There, all of your dialog options are set for the rest of the game.

Sure the options of what choice means what happen in the same location.(Technical implementation) It doesn't mean a player has to pick them all the time for the duration of the game. A player can still be full of one and have picked some of the other for conversations.

Saying that it polarizes a player to only pick one for the duration of the game is just an exaggeration.
It is optional for the player to play Renegade/Paragon. There are just incentives to pick one.

Why is it people complain about having options and choices...play another genre that is linear.

I used a hyperbole to make a point. The incentives to gain as many renegade or paragon points as possible influences far too many Mass Effect players to stay on one extreme side for the entirety (large majority) of their game.

Also, nobody is complaining about having choices. People are complaining that the current system discourages actual choice beyond whether something gives you "points". Yes, people can ignore the renegade and paragon system entirely (like me), but the people who do so are a very small minority.

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 03 mars 2010 - 11:21 .

[A Fhaol Bhig]

TJSolo wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
Why is it people complain about having options and choices...play another genre that is linear.

That
isn't the complaint. The complain is that the game encourages making
decisions according to the Paragon/Renegade meter, rather than
according to any role-playing principle or even good sense.

Encouragement and reward is not forcing any player to pick full Paragon/Renegade.
A
player not wanting to look at the meter and raise one over the other
and yet wanting to have the same reward or outcome is a complaint.
The OP says it isn't fair the option isn't there; his actions up until that point made the access to the option not appear.
The OP would rather hack the game data to get full Paragon/Renegade then use the game mechanics to skill up one over the other.

I had to re-read that wall of text. Looking at it again makes it clear the OP wants it all from the start without actually having to do anything for it.

I want to play true to what I mainly am, which is 70% nice decisions, 30% not nice.

That always gives me enough, and when I feel like being a jerk, I am one, when I feel sorry for someone, I do something about it.

I've never noticed any limitations in my speeches.

In ME2 there are not many Paragon/Renegade checks.
There are only 2 instances, I can recall, where if your skill isn't high enough that effected the outcome.
All of the interupts are accessible.

Exactly, I only had one instance where I didn't have the conversation option avaliable to me! And that was the Jack/miranda fight, and really, how many people on their first playthrough was able to resolve a crew fight first time? You need to dedicate to either paragon or renegade to get that conversation option open to you.

[EternalWolfe]

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
Why is it people complain about having options and choices...play another genre that is linear.

That
isn't the complaint. The complain is that the game encourages making
decisions according to the Paragon/Renegade meter, rather than
according to any role-playing principle or even good sense.

Encouragement and reward is not forcing any player to pick full Paragon/Renegade.
A
player not wanting to look at the meter and raise one over the other
and yet wanting to have the same reward or outcome is a complaint.
The OP says it isn't fair the option isn't there; his actions up until that point made the access to the option not appear.
The OP would rather hack the game data to get full Paragon/Renegade then use the game mechanics to skill up one over the other.

I had to re-read that wall of text. Looking at it again makes it clear the OP wants it all from the start without actually having to do anything for it.

I want to play true to what I mainly am, which is 70% nice decisions, 30% not nice.

That always gives me enough, and when I feel like being a jerk, I am one, when I feel sorry for someone, I do something about it.

I've never noticed any limitations in my speeches.

In ME2 there are not many Paragon/Renegade checks.
There are only 2 instances, I can recall, where if your skill isn't high enough that effected the outcome.
All of the interupts are accessible.

Exactly, I only had one instance where I didn't have the conversation option avaliable to me! And that was the Jack/miranda fight, and really, how many people on their first playthrough was able to resolve a crew fight first time? You need to dedicate to either paragon or renegade to get that conversation option open to you.

Starting with a ME1 import with 190 Renegade and 184 Paragon, I had my Paragon and Renegade about even throughout the game.  The only choices that gave me trouble was:

Third(final?) option in Samara's Loyalty Mission(both grey even with Agent and Death Mask)
Final option in Tali's Loyalty Mission(Agent got me through)
Final option in Jack's Loyalty Mission(Agent again)
Shipmate Fights(not sure why, but Miranda/Jack had renegade open only and Tali/Legion had paragon open only)

Everything else had both options open to me.

[AlanC9]

TJSolo wrote...

Encouragement and reward is not forcing any player to pick full Paragon/Renegade.

Correct. I supposed it's possible for this mechanism to be even worse than it is.

I'm not particularly agreeing with the OP as much as the other posters in the thread. The P/R meter gives consequences where there shouldn't be any -- you're rewarded for being consistently intimidating, rather than being good at it. When a player is rewarded for playing the meter rather than the situation or his character, something's gone wrong.

[A Fhaol Bhig]

AlanC9 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Encouragement and reward is not forcing any player to pick full Paragon/Renegade.

Correct. I supposed it's possible for this mechanism to be even worse than it is.

I'm not particularly agreeing with the OP as much as the other posters in the thread. The P/R meter gives consequences where there shouldn't be any -- you're rewarded for being consistently intimidating, rather than being good at it. When a player is rewarded for playing the meter rather than the situation or his character, something's gone wrong.

Could you please explain more about this post of yours?
I seem to be grasping a valid point of some sort, but at the sametime I'm not sure exactly what you are saying.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Octorox wrote...

 Agree. I think they should make it so each character judges you individually (Like I've heard DA does)

DA does, and it works brilliantly.

You get to play your character, remaining faithful to his personality, and the game doesn't punish you for it except in ways that make sense within the game's setting.

ME instead rewards flat characters, discouraging complexity (which I suppose is entirely in keeping with ME's lack of play control in dialogue).

[sedrikhcain]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Octorox wrote...

 Agree. I think they should make it so each character judges you individually (Like I've heard DA does)

DA does, and it works brilliantly.

You get to play your character, remaining faithful to his personality, and the game doesn't punish you for it except in ways that make sense within the game's setting.

ME instead rewards flat characters, discouraging complexity (which I suppose is entirely in keeping with ME's lack of play control in dialogue).

What do you mean "lack of play control in dialogue"?

[TrueHD]

It's too late in the series to do anything about it.

[Inarai]

Dethateer wrote...

Import, mostly paragon, half renegade, then nearly full paragon and less than half renegade in 2. I'm not an idiot, despite what you and TJ seem to think.

Well, your story doesn't add up.  It's wrong, I know this for a fact - it is possible on an import to get sufficient Paragon or Renegade for any option without going dedicated.  I went balanced on my renegade import, leaning towards Paragon, and was never cut off from conversation options entirely.

[AlanC9]

[quote]A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

[/quote]Could you please explain more about this post of yours?
I seem to be grasping a valid point of some sort, but at the sametime I'm not sure exactly what you are saying.
[/quote]

Sure. Even an intimidating character doesn't necessarily go around being intimidating all the time; it's possible to play a character who intimidates people only for a reason -- even if it's just something subjective like "this guy's really pissing me off." But the game punishes you for playing that character -- in effect, punishes you for being thoughtful about who and when you intimidate.

[Your Synthetic Superior]

limzz wrote...

   I made this account just so I could post this and am unfamiliar with these forums so I would like to apologize if this point had already been made.
   I'm a huge Mass Effect fan but one critical issue for me after completing my first playthrough of ME2 is that Paragon and Renegade points seem simplistic and uneccessary. Making even less sense than the Persuade skill from KOTOR, I don't understand why my character shouldn't be able to say something (red/dark blue renegade/paragon options) simply because I haven't earned enough points for performing actions which the devs labeled explicitly 'good' or 'bad.' The choices in the game are often deep into the gray area and many "Renegade" choices could easily be made by a good person, and vice versa. Not long into the game, I found myself making decisions I would never actually make were I Shepard in real life, but needed the Paragon points to avoid losing out on content or rewards.
   The decisions you make in the game should certainly have their appropriate effects on the storyline and characters, however they shouldn't be defined as good or bad. Perhaps you played the entire game as a selfish and merciless individual, and at the end reach some sort of epiphany and decide to make a "good" choice. The choices you make should define your character but not force future decisions you must make. Because I felt Garrus deserved revenge on the man who basically murdered his entire squad, I missed out on Paragon points which would have allowed me to end the conflict between Jack and Miranda. Situations like this really made the game less enjoyable.
   There's no real option to play in the middle unless you are willing to miss out on certain conversational options which to me is unfair. Play completey Renegade and half the time you're a total dick and for the rest of the time just someone who believes in justice and taking care of business. Play completely Paragon and you can make some good rational decisions, while frequenty your are simply a weak pansy who would let their family's killer off the hook after a stern talking to.

Also, if anyone knows a save game editor that allows changing paragon and renegade points so I can max out at the beginning of my next playthrough that would be awesome.

So basically, you want them to remove the standard dialog and just have the red and blue dialog, because what would be the point in the scripting and voice recording the rest if everyone has acces to the better dialog no matter how they play. In in the end it's just a game. I play different ways for different effects so I actually enjoy that there is a difference in how thing can play out over different playthroughs. 

You can always cheat and alter data files to give you maxed renegad and paragon. And if you don't play on PC that's what you get for playing on a console, kiddo.

[sedrikhcain]

TJSolo wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

So, you're basically saying that if I'm willing to execute someone in cold blood, but also help a person in need, I'm indecisive, and therefore incapable of telling two squaddies to STFU and focus on the mission?

You can pick either since the two are different situations.
Picking one option over the other builds up as Paragon or Renegade. The amount you have of either shows how consistent and decisive you have been with the choices you can make in the game.

Having neither of them high shows that you aren't decisive enough for all situations.
You can tell the shrews whatever you like but if you don't put in the time to actually commit Shepards personality. Shepard just wouldn't be strong enough to get out of that situation without some repercussions.

ME is an exercise in making choices and seeing repercussions from those choices..

This isn't really a fair assessment. You get renegade points for things as innocuous as razzing Joker about EDI getting the best of him. You mean to tell me doing too much of that should imply that my Shepard just isn't humane enough to decide to save some plant workers rather than indulge his mercenary crew member's revenge lust later on?

don't get me wrong, I like the renegade/paragon alignment system, in principle, but it certainly could be tweaked. The best way to do it, i think, would be to have it result in different challenges arising for you, rather than having to follow it to obtain get-out-of-jail free cards for tricky situations that could cost you a crew member's loyalty -- and life -- later on.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 04 mars 2010 - 07:00 .

[A Fhaol Bhig]

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...

[quote]A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

[/quote]Could you please explain more about this post of yours?
I seem to be grasping a valid point of some sort, but at the sametime I'm not sure exactly what you are saying.
[/quote]

Sure. Even an intimidating character doesn't necessarily go around being intimidating all the time; it's possible to play a character who intimidates people only for a reason -- even if it's just something subjective like "this guy's really pissing me off." But the game punishes you for playing that character -- in effect, punishes you for being thoughtful about who and when you intimidate.
[/quote]
Ah, I see what you are saying.

Unfortuantely like I said earlier, I never had that problem, except for one occasion, I never ran into that problem. so I can't really be a judge of that.

[Inarai]

[quote]AlanC9 wrote...

[quote]A Fhaol Bhig wrote...

[/quote]Could you please explain more about this post of yours?
I seem to be grasping a valid point of some sort, but at the sametime I'm not sure exactly what you are saying.
[/quote]

Sure. Even an intimidating character doesn't necessarily go around being intimidating all the time; it's possible to play a character who intimidates people only for a reason -- even if it's just something subjective like "this guy's really pissing me off." But the game punishes you for playing that character -- in effect, punishes you for being thoughtful about who and when you intimidate.
[/quote]

Why?  Because you're not as good at it as someone who does it all the time?  Believable.

But you can do a balance and still max it out.  I know because I've done so.

[Your Synthetic Superior]

Dethateer wrote...

Qario wrote...

Paragon and renegade are more than just points you aquire. The game, both ME1 and ME2, the whole story has 2 main directions, and these are paragon and renegade. Looking at the big picture taking the paragon path in the game will probably (hopefully) result in all the races fighting together against the reapers, this theory is streangthened by the geth reprogramming, saving the rachnii queen and saving the council. The renegade path in the game will probably show how humanity alone defeats the reapers.... somehow.

And that is a good thing... how? You're forgetting that if you're a paragon when it comes to bringing species together (SPECIES, NOT RACES), but a renegade when, say, interrogating someone, you're f**ked when the conflicts on the ship come up.

You're not ****ed. Whoopty do, somebody in a video game doesn't like you as much as they did before. IT's not exactly game breaking. Even unloyal people can survive the game as long as you don't assign them to important roles.

[Si-Shen]

I dunno, I was happy with the choices and the way they set up the paragon and renegade options, it gave you a bit more reason to be more focused on one or the other or to play the field a bit and get some of both.

[Bigdoser]

TrueHD wrote...

It's too late in the series to do anything about it.

This.

[Sylvius the Mad]

sedrikhcain wrote...

What do you mean "lack of play control in dialogue"?

I meant to type "player control".

I dislike that Shepard speaks and acts without meaningful player input.

[sedrikhcain]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

What do you mean "lack of play control in dialogue"?

I meant to type "player control".

I dislike that Shepard speaks and acts without meaningful player input.

ah, you mean, you push the button for a response and then shepard says and does whatever is preprogrammed.

OK, thanks. Just wasn't sure what you meant.

[TheTrooper1138]

TJSolo wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

So, you're basically saying that if I'm willing to execute someone in cold blood, but also help a person in need, I'm indecisive, and therefore incapable of telling two squaddies to STFU and focus on the mission?

You can pick either since the two are different situations.
Picking one option over the other builds up as Paragon or Renegade. The amount you have of either shows how consistent and decisive you have been with the choices you can make in the game.

Having neither of them high shows that you aren't decisive enough for all situations.
You can tell the shrews whatever you like but if you don't put in the time to actually commit Shepards personality. Shepard just wouldn't be strong enough to get out of that situation without some repercussions.

ME is an exercise in making choices and seeing repercussions from those choices..

bullcrap. ME2 uses your past choices to determine your future choices. And apart from the fact that this doesn't make sense, it's just ridiculous. On my first ME2 playthrough my Shep was mainly Paragaon, but she had no problem with being "evil" toward badguys... she wanted to help Thane at any cost and the character I created would have definitely used the "I'm a Spectre" option during the interrogation, still that was blocked out, since she was mainly a Paragon. What sense does that make? None!

nicodeemus327 wrote...

Meh, I disagree. I like the way it works. It forces you to make choices. If anything I'd want more of those kind of situations.

you just missed the point entirely...

TJSolo wrote...

"So, no one could ever be strong enough to give orders without being either completely good or completely evil? What?"

Paragon/Renegade is not good vs evil. A renegade Shepard doesn't go around stealing lolipops from babies. 

Riiight... I'm really starting to hate my Renegade char, because many of the Renegade choices are plain evil. For example during the Thane recruiting mission, when you meet the injured worker at the beginning.. the Renegade dialogue was just plain evil for the sake of being evil, since that moment I hate my char and actually I would like to see him die... then again I've done all the loyalty quests by now, so he will probably survive, maybe even with all crew members alive... 

AlanC9 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

So, you're basically saying that if I'm willing to execute someone in cold blood, but also help a person in need, I'm indecisive, and therefore incapable of telling two squaddies to STFU and focus on the mission?

You can pick either since the two are different situations.
Picking one option over the other builds up as Paragon or Renegade. The amount you have of either shows how consistent and decisive you have been with the choices you can make in the game.

Having neither of them high shows that you aren't decisive enough for all situations.

You're equating consistent with decisive for no apparent reason. Well, except that it makes your argument seem to make sense, I guess.

this.

TJSolo wrote...

The OP would rather hack the game data to get full Paragon/Renegade then use the game mechanics to skill up one over the other.

right, picking the bottom dialogue or the top one is a really big skill... that has nothing to do with "skilling" anything up, the game mechanics suck at this and I would have no problem "cheating" when the game mechanics are so ****ed up.. so far I didn't do it, but should one of my future chars require it, I will do so...

TJSolo wrote...

Then there is my use of decisive in referring to the player that doesn't want to decide between Paragon or Renegade.
Bioware has stated that Shepard has two paths(extremes,yes) and the player decides which path to take, each path has its own consequences and benefits. 
One of the benefits is more dialogue trees inline with your(player) alignment.
One of the consequences is less dialogue trees outside of your(player) alignment.
To fully explore the impact Shepard can make in ME a player needs to be decisive and pick one of the paths to gain access to the benefits.
I am calling players that can't pick between the two options for a playthrough indecisive.

I'm calling these players roleplayers... 

Modifié par TheTrooper1138, 04 mars 2010 - 02:34 .

[Canned Bullets]

Get rid of the paragon/renegade points system and have 3 dialogue options, paragon, neutral, and renegade.

[Dragonfable of Dain]

The only problem I see is the only thing that would replace the renegade and paragon system is if there was alot more diologue options to make it harder to persuade people to do things you want and they couldn't be clear cut like top option on the wheel is good middle ok bottome badass but this will never happen because they would have to spend more money hireing voice actors!

[mosor]

I did a playthrough where I cheated and gave myself max renegade and paragon. It was really liberating and fun to have your Sheppard act the way you want to act in a certain situation. The whole paragon/renegade system is crap. In my opinion they should focus more on the consequences of your dialogue more than just rewarding points. More often than not, if you're a nice guy about things or a dick, the consequences are pretty much the same no matter what.