153 réponses à ce sujet

[mosor]

scyphozoa wrote...

i personally dislike the ability to gain paragon and renegade points concurrently.

gaining one should mean losing the other. it is just a personal preference. i find that having consequences to your PC's behavior makes me feel more immersed in the game.

other people say being limited to only playing all good or all evil diminishes their Roleplaying experience.

both are valid arguments in that both are personal preferences. i believe that by removing the single scale balance, and introducing the ability to be both paragon and renegade, players care less about their decisions and the experience is ultimately weakened.

i point to Jade Empire as Bioware's single best morality system.

I don't mind building morality per se.  I just disagree with loosing out on dialogue options because you generally play one way or another. Some people you want to be nice to, for others it's  satisfying being a jerk towards.

[Magic Man Fancy Dan]

thought id drop this here. www.masseffect2faces.com/index.php?show=tutorials&tutorial=hair

save editor is in it id suggest making a new game and unlocking legion got some extra dialogue since he was ment to be an early release (has audio getting mordin even)

And as for this topic think of it this way people know who comander shepard is or if not they at least get a vibe from him. I like to think typically someone following the paragon path would have more of a calm demeanor and would be more likely to host a charity of some sort rather than the Renegade who is more of... well... www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PjTuSQNLI4

Modifié par Magic Man Fancy Dan, 04 mars 2010 - 04:40 .

[Andaius20]

Thats who my Main shep came out. I did plenty of renegade actions against the krogan and Merc's too. I just picked paragon for the major stuff and all the companion stuff (aside from Zaeed's), And some of the mission stuff. I had no problem solving the disputes of the crew. I only thing it doesn't support is a perfect balance option.

I think the para/ren option are just fine. Choices and concequences and all that.

Modifié par Andaius20, 04 mars 2010 - 05:04 .

[Bob5312]

To be fair, paragon/renegade isn't really a morality meter, it just keeps track of whether you're an 'ends justify the means' kind of guy/girl or lean more towards compromising a mission to save lives. The justification for having the paragon/renegade score determine your responses is that this is the character you've created; Shepard isn't going to be a nice guy one minute, and a complete jerk the next. It keeps the character consistent.

What I didn't like about the system is that regardless of what path you take the outcome is generally the same. You'll get the same response from a character regardless of whether you are a paragon or a renegade. Call Mordin a heartless murderer and he won't really mind, and he'll still sing his song for you. There are no real consequences for your behaviour.

I also could not, for the life of me, figure out why I was getting some of the points I was. The choices are sometimes bizarre or extreme, between cartoonish villainy and unrealistic kindness. Sometimes just being nice to your friends is enough to earn you paragon points, which doesn't really fit with the theme and can be a real pain on a renegade playthrough.

[AsheraII]

I simply disagree with the simple idea of removing them completely, and also disagree with using paragon score to enable renegade options.



The current system could use some tweaking, that much I agree with. It should be slightly less strict in my opinion, while the outcome from a choice between paragon and renegade should be MUCH more drastic. And with more drastic, I mean like the difference between the Paragon and the Renegade route you take on the Zaeed Loyalty mission: difference in outcome, difference in rewards.

Some percentile scale which can still change while playing for example: 30% Paragon with 70% Renegade for example, which might open up some special Renegade interrupts because of the high Renegade percentage, but some decisions might also still move the bar back towards Paragon.

Or, alternatively, go back to something like the ME1 system, which in my opinion was slightly more intuitive.

[Tazzmission]

id like to see a netural option instead of the two paragon and renagade...

[noffis]

I have to say I don't agree at all with OP, only played through ME2 once with a new character since I'm still not done with my "perfect" ME1 playthrough. But it really hit me how awesome the remake of the paragon/renegade system is compared to the first game. Although I couldn't solve the Miranda/Jack debate either, which was kinda frustrating.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Bob5312 wrote...

To be fair, paragon/renegade isn't really a morality meter, it just keeps track of whether you're an 'ends justify the means' kind of guy/girl or lean more towards compromising a mission to save lives.

So whether Shepard is a competent solider, or whether he's an idiot.

If only BioWare and I agreed on which side was the idiot.

[HypesterHypester]

Grizzly46 wrote...

One very prominent example of the problem with this is during Thane's loyalty mission when you are about to question Kelham. If you have a high renegade level, you can begin the interrogation with "I'm a Spectre, start talking" and Kelham will spill the beans immediately. If you don't have that renegade level, the option will be greyed out and you will have to play int out until the lawyer turns up. Then you will have another, neutral option of telling the lawyer and Kelham you are a Spectre and get the info needed. Something is clearly wrong there.

This is a great example of people who believe the P/R system is more limited than it actually is. I didn't have the renegade points AND made the dumb decision to be the bad cop, when I was far more suited to 'good' cop. But I was done before the lawyer got there.

Nothing seems wrong. Your results were not limited, they were a result of your choices over and above your paragon or renegade score.

Dethateer wrote...

There aren't any options, that's just the problem. You can either be goody-goody, or you can be a dick to everyone. If you're on the middleground, you're stuck in the void, because you won't be able to pick options of either type. It isn't "indecisiveness", that's what you fail to understand. People are actually gray, not black or white.

This is a great example of someone overstating the problem. Do you know what options are? You have two! But many will say there are "no" options because there are "only two options." Even though you do not have to max paragon to get all the paragon convo options and vice versa. You can be "dark grey" and "light gray" and that actually yields the most reward, and offers a lot of flexibility in role play.

Separate Bars Please

On the subject, I like having two separate bars, because it does allow me to be a paragon, but still able to do renegade things I think my character would do, without worrying about my paragon score. It allows me to do all the renegade interupts without any negative consequence to my numbers. That's good for roleplaying.

Reputation, not Morality

What I do like about the system, is that it does simulate 'reputation' and while, say in Thane's mission, a Paragon could say "I'm a Spectre," in that context, without being pereceived as a total badarse, the guy wouldn't have cared.
An option being grayed out, doesn't mean that your character is incapable of saying it, but it just means that the target won't care, because you don't have the reputation and charisma to back it up. this was actually  demonstrated in ME1 where you could pick those grayed out options and the targets "[Failure] What, you think I'm scared of you?" and similar answers. Crooks aren't scared of Superman, no one is going to listen to Batman trying to be reasonable, and no one listens to Wonder Woman period.

Because of what is being simulated having a 'forceful' 'neutral' option doesn't make any sense. People will do what you say because you're so... balanced? That's kinda absurd. People who choose neutral should be best equipped to take a neutral position in the future, including when teammates are arguing or someone is being interogated.

Improvements still needed

I do think that the system could be improved though. More leeway in how much paragon or renegade is needed for big stuff, and above and beyond that, more instances with varying requirements will help roleplayers understand what the P/R score really means and allow them to pick the balance of Paragon and Renegade conversation choices that they really want. This does require more voicework, but I think that would give the roleplayers the feeling of freedom to be jerks and placaters at will while still having the big things require the kind of chutpah that comes with dedication to one or the other.

I could also see a third "Reasonable" green option emerge in a more complicated reputation/morality system.

I cannot overstate that removing this system would basically remove the soul of the game, and the franchise. Those who don't like it would be doing themselves a favor by pointing out how to improve it, cuz it ain't going anywhere.

Modifié par HypesterHypester, 05 mars 2010 - 03:47 .

[AsheraII]

HypesterHypester wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

There aren't any options, that's just the problem. You can either be goody-goody, or you can be a dick to everyone. If you're on the middleground, you're stuck in the void, because you won't be able to pick options of either type. It isn't "indecisiveness", that's what you fail to understand. People are actually gray, not black or white.

This is a great example of someone overstating the problem. Do you know what options are? You have two! But many will say there are "no" options because there are "only two options." Even though you do not have to max paragon to get all the paragon convo options and vice versa. You can be "dark grey" and "light gray" and that actually yields the most reward, and offers a lot of flexibility in role play.

No, actually, he IS right. The infight between 2 squadmembers can easily prove this: someone playing a more or less neutral character (not uncommon on a first playthrough) will not be able to defuse the fight between them. If the character gets to this point of infighting late enough in the game, he or she will also be unable to solve the situation afterwards, because there won't be enough paragon/renegade points left to gather to sweettalk the squadmember that was put on hold later, resulting in the dead of that squadmember shortly after.

[HypesterHypester]

AsheraII wrote...

HypesterHypester wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

There aren't any options, that's just the problem. You can either be goody-goody, or you can be a dick to everyone. If you're on the middleground, you're stuck in the void, because you won't be able to pick options of either type. It isn't "indecisiveness", that's what you fail to understand. People are actually gray, not black or white.

This is a great example of someone overstating the problem. Do you know what options are? You have two! But many will say there are "no" options because there are "only two options." Even though you do not have to max paragon to get all the paragon convo options and vice versa. You can be "dark grey" and "light gray" and that actually yields the most reward, and offers a lot of flexibility in role play.

No, actually, he IS right. The infight between 2 squadmembers can easily prove this: someone playing a more or less neutral character (not uncommon on a first playthrough) will not be able to defuse the fight between them. If the character gets to this point of infighting late enough in the game, he or she will also be unable to solve the situation afterwards, because there won't be enough paragon/renegade points left to gather to sweettalk the squadmember that was put on hold later, resulting in the dead of that squadmember shortly after.

What you are desribing 'playing neutral' 'late in the game' 'early in the game' are options. It sounds like you feel because you can't paragon and renegade your way to any end point that you have no options, and that's just not true.

If I recall correctly, you can choose which patry member to side with if you do not have the points to diffuse it, again, choices. Options.

You choose what order to do things in.  You choose whether to go paragon, renegade or somewhere in between and WHERE in between. You choose which squad member to side with IF you have chosen neutral. I think you're confusing having choices with being omnipotent.

I'm not familiar with what situation you're referring to, so I cannot comment on this further yet. I diffused the fight and it did not occur until boy loyalty missions had been completed, we'll see if they actually try to kill each other and how I handle that when it comes up.

[Impala]

I loved Jade Empires morality system as well. Even if Renegade/Paragon wasn't meant to equal good or evil it comes pretty damn close. It's extremely annoying how either miranada or Jack and Tali or Legion will hate me because I play an in between character. I will also say that my character is extremely consistent and decisive in his actions. He punishes evil, but is kind to the people he thinks are either remorseful for their actions or people that are genuinely good hearted. For some reason the only way to be good is to run around in a field of butterflies and never kill anyone, even mass murderers or people who could be highly dangerous to the population if you let them go. Letting someone live who has a high probability of killing someone innocent in the future is not paragon, it's retarded. Not to mention the actual definition of paragon has absolutely nothing to do with how it is represented in the game.


Not to mention for the idiots saying that we are indecisive for not going full paragon or renegade..how the hell is this even an RPG than? I have to choose out of these 2 extremely unbelievable types of characters? I Can either be the biggest idiotic **** in the world or I can be the most evil douchebag in the world. I would say that most people don't fit into either of those categories, and you shouldn't be punished for not being some superhuman who follows one set of moral laws and never actually makes any decisions that would require him to think of the consequences.

Modifié par Impala, 05 mars 2010 - 04:44 .

[Comdawg]

I thought ME2 worked pretty well. I think the decisions you make should play a factor in what you are able to do. If I have been going around acting like a Paragon, why then should I step out of character and do a major renegade intimidate and then expect the other characters to believe or respect it? I also liked that they took the Charm and Intimidate skills out of the skill point system. The one thing I would like to see is if the number of points underneath on the Paragon and Renegade meters by the graphic meter they have so you have a better idea of much impact the decisions you are making overall.

[Impala]

Comdawg wrote...

I thought ME2 worked pretty well. I think the decisions you make should play a factor in what you are able to do. If I have been going around acting like a Paragon, why then should I step out of character and do a major renegade intimidate and then expect the other characters to believe or respect it? I also liked that they took the Charm and Intimidate skills out of the skill point system. The one thing I would like to see is if the number of points underneath on the Paragon and Renegade meters by the graphic meter they have so you have a better idea of much impact the decisions you are making overall.

What if I kill people and am nice to people? Should I not be able to stay in character and do a renegade intimidate or a paragon charm? I'm pretty sure people aren't mad about making full renegade character and then suddenly wanting to make a paragon decision. They are mad because they play realistic characters that do some renegade things and some paragon things and they don't think they should be excluded from making initimidate or charm options simply because they don't choose to click the dialogue option on the top right every time.\\

The point is that no one should be rewarded for being  some extremely fake prototype human who is either a huge A-hole or a huge pansy, and people who choose to make a realistic character who has a different set of morals pertaining to different things shouldn't be punished.

Modifié par Impala, 05 mars 2010 - 04:52 .

[Besetment]

Man some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread just blows my mind. Paragon/Renegade isn't a morality meter nor is it necessarily a reflection of good and evil. For instance, Archangel is clearly a benevolent character but he is absolutely a renegade. The guy is a paramilitary vigilante.

Secondly, Shepard is always the hero of the story. You can't change that but you can determine the methods s/he uses in defense of the safety of mankind, to what extent those methods operate within a kind of code (influenced as it may be via abstract concepts such as morality, adherence to law, duty and obligation) or to operate outside it.

Unlike sliding scale morality, making paragon choices doesn't mean you can't make renegade choices. It depends entirely on the situation and what you think is necessary to resolve that situation.

I think the system is more or less perfect for this type of game and if there is a feeling of incongruity when you flip between paragon and renegade actions that is to do with the way the scene is written. ME2 is still Bioware's best written game to date though. By a long way too. That said, there needs to be some restriction in the way you have access to paragon/renegade choices, influenced by your conduct up until that point in the game. Which is what ME2 does. You can arguably ask to relax the requirement but if there was no requirement then the experience of playing would be...somewhat schizophrenic.

Modifié par Besetment, 05 mars 2010 - 04:59 .

[Grizzly46]

Besetment wrote...

Man some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread just blows my mind. Paragon/Renegade isn't a morality meter nor is it necessarily a reflection of good and evil. For instance, Archangel is clearly a benevolent character but he is absolutely a renegade. The guy is a paramilitary vigilante.

Secondly, Shepard is always the hero of the story. You can't change that but you can determine the methods s/he uses in defense of the safety of mankind, to what extent those methods operate within a kind of code (influenced as it may be via abstract concepts such as morality, adherence to law, duty and obligation) or to operate outside it.

Unlike sliding scale morality, making paragon choices doesn't mean you can't make renegade choices. It depends entirely on the situation and what you think is necessary to resolve that situation.

I think the system is more or less perfect for this type of game and if there is a feeling of incongruity when you flip between paragon and renegade actions that is to do with the way the scene is written. ME2 is still Bioware's best written game to date though. By a long way too. That said, there needs to be some restriction in the way you have access to paragon/renegade choices, influenced by your conduct up until that point in the game. Which is what ME2 does. You can arguably ask to relax the requirement but if there was no requirement then the experience of playing would be...somewhat schizophrenic.

Nope, nope, nope. First off, the pragon/renegade options do at times show if you are going down the good or bad side - comforting a greiving mother? Pushing a merc out of a window? Quite clearly good and bad choices.

Secondly, the choices you have made do influence what you can say. It takes a damn lot of renegade points to start off the interrogation with Kelaham with the words "I'm a Spectre". If you don't have the renegade points, ie haven't been "bad", you can't tell Kelham that.

Then, I'm not that fond of that the system uses two scales instead of one, and that one option doesn't affect the points on the other end. However, I will agree on that the system strangely enough works.

[Impala]

Besetment wrote...

Man some of the stuff I'm reading in this thread just blows my mind. Paragon/Renegade isn't a morality meter nor is it necessarily a reflection of good and evil. For instance, Archangel is clearly a benevolent character but he is absolutely a renegade. The guy is a paramilitary vigilante.

Secondly, Shepard is always the hero of the story. You can't change that but you can determine the methods s/he uses in defense of the safety of mankind, to what extent those methods operate within a kind of code (influenced as it may be via abstract concepts such as morality, adherence to law, duty and obligation) or to operate outside it.

Unlike sliding scale morality, making paragon choices doesn't mean you can't make renegade choices. It depends entirely on the situation and what you think is necessary to resolve that situation.

I think the system is more or less perfect for this type of game and if there is a feeling of incongruity when you flip between paragon and renegade actions that is to do with the way the scene is written. ME2 is still Bioware's best written game to date though. By a long way too. That said, there needs to be some restriction in the way you have access to paragon/renegade choices, influenced by your conduct up until that point in the game. Which is what ME2 does. You can arguably ask to relax the requirement but if there was no requirement then the experience of playing would be...somewhat schizophrenic.

If renegade is not a meter of good and evil than why does it add to Renegade when you do thinks that have nothing to do with being a renegade. If being a renegade wasn't a depiction of good and evil than all of the ****/evil options in the game wouldn't add to renegade. Renegade may not have been meant to be good or evil, but it clearly is. Especially when you look at the dialogue options for all the renegade things. If I want to kill the Rachni queen why can't I say "Sorry, but I can't take the risk". I have to say "I'm killing you right here right now!" (Paraphrasing don't actually remember). I could live with the current morality meter if they added more dialogue options so being a renegade wasn't purely just being a huge A-hole in every sense of the word.

My suggestion is to never block out any option in the dialogue, but if you've been a goody two shoes the whole game maybe sticking a gun in somebodies face doesn't work as well because they know that you won't pull the trigger on an unarmed civilian, while if you tell someone that you're going to get their data files from their office if they give you the code they don't believe you because they know you are an untrustworthy bastard.

Last but not least, if you played the game according to Garrus's renegade morality (He gets this if you make him like that in ME1) you would still have way more paragon than renegade on your bar. THis is because 95% of the renegade options are purely A-hole dialogue options and have nothing to do with enacting justice or finishing off a criminal who is unarmed. Garrus is not the kind of person who is disrespectful and mean just for the purpose of being mean, which is the opposite of completely renegade shep who is a total douchebag any time the opportunity arises.

Modifié par Impala, 05 mars 2010 - 05:20 .

[HypesterHypester]

Grizzly46 wrote...

Nope, nope, nope. First off, the pragon/renegade options do at times show if you are going down the good or bad side - comforting a greiving mother? Pushing a merc out of a window? Quite clearly good and bad choices.

Secondly, the choices you have made do influence what you can say. It takes a damn lot of renegade points to start off the interrogation with Kelaham with the words "I'm a Spectre". If you don't have the renegade points, ie haven't been "bad", you can't tell Kelham that.

Then, I'm not that fond of that the system uses two scales instead of one, and that one option doesn't affect the points on the other end. However, I will agree on that the system strangely enough works.

Yes, yes, yes. First off, at times the paragon/renegade do at times things that are counter intuitive.  Letting a dangerous criminal go in order to give them a second chance? Paragon Evil. KOing a bystander to save a life. Renegade Good. There are enough of these in the game so that most people understand it's not Good and Evil.

Second off, it's not that your character can't say it, they didn't forget how to talk, its just that without the renegade points, your character isn't badarse enough for Kelham to believe it. In ME1 and KOTOR you could choose the grayed out option and get the [Failure] response.  In ME2, they save development time by just not letting you pick it. This is a measure of reuptation and image, NOT morality.

I love that the system has two different bars, because it always me to roleplay the kind of Shepherd I envision. If I was losing points for doing renegade options, I couldn't max out Paragon.

Impala wrote...

If renegade is not a meter of good and evil than why does it add to Renegade when you do thinks that have nothing to do with being a renegade. If being a renegade wasn't a depiction of good and evil than all of the ****/evil options in the game wouldn't add to renegade. Renegade may not have been meant to be good or evil, but it clearly is. Especially when you look at the dialogue options for all the renegade things. If I want to kill the Rachni queen why can't I say "Sorry, but I can't take the risk". I have to say "I'm killing you right here right now!" (Paraphrasing don't actually remember). I could live with the current morality meter if they added more dialogue options so being a renegade wasn't purely just being a huge A-hole in every sense of the word.

My suggestion is to never block out any option in the dialogue, but if you've been a goody two shoes the whole game maybe sticking a gun in somebodies face doesn't work as well because they know that you won't pull the trigger on an unarmed civilian, while if you tell someone that you're going to get their data files from their office if they give you the code they don't believe you because they know you are an untrustworthy bastard.

Last but not least, if you played the game according to Garrus's renegade morality (He gets this if you make him like that in ME1) you would still have way more paragon than renegade on your bar. THis is because 95% of the renegade options are purely A-hole dialogue options and have nothing to do with enacting justice or finishing off a criminal who is unarmed. Garrus is not the kind of person who is disrespectful and mean just for the purpose of being mean, which is the opposite of completely renegade shep who is a total douchebag any time the opportunity arises.

All the renegade options are not evil, and all of the Paragon options are not good.  As you said, letting a deadly unrepentant criminal go for a second chance.  Paragon Evil. There are plenty of these throughout the game.

What you're seeing with the blocked out dialogue options is exactly what you describe.  You can't say "I'm a Spectre" because it wouldn't work, and Bioware didn't record a bunch of "[Failure] I'm not scared of you!" dialogue. Paragons taking Renegade actions still work because they are actions.  Sticking a gun in someone's face does scare them, because it takes their focus off of who you are and puts them on the immediate deadliness of the weapon, unless they are trained for those situations. Blowing up a tank of gasoline under someone does take them out, regardless of your reputation. If it was a morality meter, then being a good person would block out evil actions and vice versa. The fact that it only affects speech proves that it is not a morality meter. It has nothing to do with who your character is, and everything to do with how they come across.

The fact that you expect the RENEGADE to be concerned with enacting justice shows that you really don't get what the meter is about. Even with Garrus' morality, you're not going to get many paragon points unless you choose the paragon over the neutral conversation option, and show concern for your crew, two things Garrus doesn't do.

The Renegade is a cold sadistic bastard, sometimes comically so. If you don't want to play one, then don't play one.

Modifié par HypesterHypester, 05 mars 2010 - 05:57 .

[HypesterHypester]

Impala wrote...

I loved Jade Empires morality system as well. Even if Renegade/Paragon wasn't meant to equal good or evil it comes pretty damn close. It's extremely annoying how either miranada or Jack and Tali or Legion will hate me because I play an in between character. I will also say that my character is extremely consistent and decisive in his actions. He punishes evil, but is kind to the people he thinks are either remorseful for their actions or people that are genuinely good hearted. For some reason the only way to be good is to run around in a field of butterflies and never kill anyone, even mass murderers or people who could be highly dangerous to the population if you let them go. Letting someone live who has a high probability of killing someone innocent in the future is not paragon, it's retarded. Not to mention the actual definition of paragon has absolutely nothing to do with how it is represented in the game.


Not to mention for the idiots saying that we are indecisive for not going full paragon or renegade..how the hell is this even an RPG than? I have to choose out of these 2 extremely unbelievable types of characters? I Can either be the biggest idiotic **** in the world or I can be the most evil douchebag in the world. I would say that most people don't fit into either of those categories, and you shouldn't be punished for not being some superhuman who follows one set of moral laws and never actually makes any decisions that would require him to think of the consequences.

I also play a character who is well thought out and reflects many of my real life views. I do not find that I take equal renegade and paragon options, I find I go 'renegade' when things are really bad, and in empathy with Garrus' tragic experience. Generally though, if being paragon only inconveniences me, I'll go for it. I am not fully Paragon, but I have never missed a paragon conversation option. I just wanted to point out that the system does not require extreme devotion to either, but only that one must lean to one side if one wants to be able to make NPCs do what you want. If you choose to ignore these shades of gray and claim that being butteflies or a-hole is the only way to play, I will continue to happily prove you wrong in silence.

Your character seems to be one that is kind to good people and mean to bad people. If there are an even ratio of such in the game, then your character will then be a middle of the road character. In this sense, your character is one that is acted upon, rather than one who acts on the universe. If someone is 'good' he will be nice to them, if someone is 'bad' he will be mean to them.  The character could be classified as indecisive, not in the sense that he is wishy-washy, but in the sense that he does not determine anything, he simply reacts to what he is given. The only way to be a 'force,' something that changes the world/galaxy/universe is to be nice to people who don't deserve it, or to be mean to people who don't deserve it, otherwise, you are just a function of the situation, as opposed to the situation being a function of you.

[Impala]

HypesterHypester wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Nope, nope, nope. First off, the pragon/renegade options do at times show if you are going down the good or bad side - comforting a greiving mother? Pushing a merc out of a window? Quite clearly good and bad choices.

Secondly, the choices you have made do influence what you can say. It takes a damn lot of renegade points to start off the interrogation with Kelaham with the words "I'm a Spectre". If you don't have the renegade points, ie haven't been "bad", you can't tell Kelham that.

Then, I'm not that fond of that the system uses two scales instead of one, and that one option doesn't affect the points on the other end. However, I will agree on that the system strangely enough works.

Yes, yes, yes. First off, at times the paragon/renegade do at times things that are counter intuitive.  Letting a dangerous criminal go in order to give them a second chance? Paragon Evil. KOing a bystander to save a life. Renegade Good. There are enough of these in the game so that most people understand it's not Good and Evil.

Second off, it's not that your character can't say it, they didn't forget how to talk, its just that without the renegade points, your character isn't badarse enough for Kelham to believe it. In ME1 and KOTOR you could choose the grayed out option and get the [Failure] response.  In ME2, they save development time by just not letting you pick it. This is a measure of reuptation and image, NOT morality.

I love that the system has two different bars, because it always me to roleplay the kind of Shepherd I envision. If I was losing points for doing renegade options, I couldn't max out Paragon.

Impala wrote...

If renegade is not a meter of good and evil than why does it add to Renegade when you do thinks that have nothing to do with being a renegade. If being a renegade wasn't a depiction of good and evil than all of the ****/evil options in the game wouldn't add to renegade. Renegade may not have been meant to be good or evil, but it clearly is. Especially when you look at the dialogue options for all the renegade things. If I want to kill the Rachni queen why can't I say "Sorry, but I can't take the risk". I have to say "I'm killing you right here right now!" (Paraphrasing don't actually remember). I could live with the current morality meter if they added more dialogue options so being a renegade wasn't purely just being a huge A-hole in every sense of the word.

My suggestion is to never block out any option in the dialogue, but if you've been a goody two shoes the whole game maybe sticking a gun in somebodies face doesn't work as well because they know that you won't pull the trigger on an unarmed civilian, while if you tell someone that you're going to get their data files from their office if they give you the code they don't believe you because they know you are an untrustworthy bastard.

Last but not least, if you played the game according to Garrus's renegade morality (He gets this if you make him like that in ME1) you would still have way more paragon than renegade on your bar. THis is because 95% of the renegade options are purely A-hole dialogue options and have nothing to do with enacting justice or finishing off a criminal who is unarmed. Garrus is not the kind of person who is disrespectful and mean just for the purpose of being mean, which is the opposite of completely renegade shep who is a total douchebag any time the opportunity arises.

All the renegade options are not evil, and all of the Paragon options are not good.  As you said, letting a deadly unrepentant criminal go for a second chance.  Paragon Evil. There are plenty of these throughout the game.

What you're seeing with the blocked out dialogue options is exactly what you describe.  You can't say "I'm a Spectre" because it wouldn't work, and Bioware didn't record a bunch of "[Failure] I'm not scared of you!" dialogue. Paragons taking Renegade actions still work because they are actions.  Sticking a gun in someone's face does scare them, because it takes their focus off of who you are and puts them on the immediate deadliness of the weapon, unless they are trained for those situations. Blowing up a tank of gasoline under someone does take them out, regardless of your reputation. If it was a morality meter, then being a good person would block out evil actions and vice versa. The fact that it only affects speech proves that it is not a morality meter. It has nothing to do with who your character is, and everything to do with how they come across.

The fact that you expect the RENEGADE to be concerned with enacting justice shows that you really don't get what the meter is about. Even with Garrus' morality, you're not going to get many paragon points unless you choose the paragon over the neutral conversation option, and stop showing concern for your crew.

The Renegade is a cold sadistic bastard, sometimes comically so. If you don't want to play one, then don't play one.

I don't play one, I play a character who is neither the renegade nor paragon. The fact is renegade and paragon are on too much of a ridiculous scale to reward someone for going deep on to either side of the scale. My problem is with the blocked out dialogue options is that my character kills people, and is nice to people, yet for some reason I can't do certain actions? It's ridiculous, and there's no way in getting around it. It's honestly like saying that since I killed a drug lord last week who has killed dozens of people I can't convince my friend to stop fighting with someone? That makes no sense at all. The whole Mass Effect morality system is based on flat characters that don't exist. Nearly all of the renegade options are way over the top, and the problem is I have no other option. There is no "Kill the Rachni queen remorsefully" option. It is kill her, and while your doing this action that could save millions of people we're going to make you look like a complete and utter douchebag.

Modifié par Impala, 05 mars 2010 - 05:59 .

[AsheraII]

Paragon and Renegade have NOTHING to do with good/evil. It's simple as that.



Paragon:

-Politically correct attitude (will try to say things without them sounding offensive)

-Empathic (considers the others' point of view)

-Dialogically persuasive



Renegade:

-Rude attitude (says the things you usually think, and only say out loud with REALLY good friends)

-Self centered (which is not exactly the same thing as being egoistic)

-Physically persuasive



Those are the differences between Paragons and Renegades in a nutshell. Much more realistic and subtle than good vs evil systems imo.



Carrying this over to (for example) D&D, then yes, one could play a Renegade Paladin to some degree. Laugh out loud when you see a baby fall of a cart because it simply looks hilarious, eventhough a Paladin would still be moved to help the kid after he wipes the laughing tears from his eyes.

[Illum.se]

I absolutely want Paragon and Renegade in the game, they add replay value.



I do however feel that the choices can be rather inconsistent, as at times the renegade options are a "chaotic good" direction and at others it's simply "chaotic evil"/total ****. Garrus is in my opinion what a renegade SHOULD be all about. He makes up his own rules as he goes along, but he is still a good guy at heart, doing the right thing but using a gun instead of angry letters. Chaotic good in my book.



Being renegade is supposed to be a pragmatic "no nonsense" and most likely harsh approach to dealing with problems. It should in no way, shape, size or form include being a total dick to your own crew. That should be adressed. Even with a ruthless agenda, any bad-guy knows that outside the law, ALL you have is the loyalty of your team.



For the most part I like the paragon track, but my biggest gripe with the moral system is that the renegade mold is too wide. Ruthless, ass to your crew, sociopathic, throw in some rasism, then some "I don't like galactic threats like Rachni and Geth", and top it off with some good old bullying of any honest merchant and you're close to something too random imo. Stay chaotic good, stay simple, in order to make an omelet ...

[HypesterHypester]

Impala wrote...

I don't play one, I play a character who is neither the renegade nor paragon. The fact is renegade and paragon are on too much of a ridiculous scale to reward someone for going deep on to either side of the scale. My problem is with the blocked out dialogue options is that my character kills people, and is nice to people, yet for some reason I can't do certain actions? It's ridiculous, and there's no way in getting around it. It's honestly like saying that since I killed a drug lord last week who has killed dozens of people I can't convince my friend to stop fighting with someone? That makes no sense at all. The whole Mass Effect morality system is based on flat characters that don't exist. Nearly all of the renegade options are way over the top, and the problem is I have no other option. There is no "Kill the Rachni queen remorsefully" option. It is kill her, and while your doing this action that could save millions of people we're going to make you look like a complete and utter douchebag.

I killed, several times, and I was able to convince my friends to stop fighting, so your analogy does not apply to ME2. The character I'm playing does exist, is not flat, and he is rewarded. You can do all actions, regardless of Paragon Renegade points.  You cannot successfully use all dialogue options, because your reputation does not always support it. That makes perfect sense.

There are some ridiculous options... supporting an Anti-Human criminal politician because the Paragon "believes in Democracy" was a little crazy, (and  further proof it is not a morality system) but most stances are more reasonable, and common to many fictional characters. There are people who will kill an alien killing machine in cold blood without remorse. That's not 'flat.' Especially after fighting those crazy Rachni spawn. There are also people who see the Rachni Queen's side of things and decide to save her.  Are there people who see the Rachni Queen's side of things, but still want to kill her? Why would anyone do that?

Is that particular need: Doing Renegade options "remorsefully" something you regularly find yourself wanting in Mass Effect conversations? If so, that does explain your problem pretty thoroughly. 

In all, it seems like we're playing two different games.  You're saying things aren't possible that I'm doing, effortlessly. I'm sorry that the dialogue in your copy is so unbearable.

[Impala]

AsheraII wrote...

Paragon and Renegade have NOTHING to do with good/evil. It's simple as that.

Paragon:
-Politically correct attitude (will try to say things without them sounding offensive)
-Empathic (considers the others' point of view)
-Dialogically persuasive

Renegade:
-Rude attitude (says the things you usually think, and only say out loud with REALLY good friends)
-Self centered (which is not exactly the same thing as being egoistic)
-Physically persuasive

Those are the differences between Paragons and Renegades in a nutshell. Much more realistic and subtle than good vs evil systems imo.

Carrying this over to (for example) D&D, then yes, one could play a Renegade Paladin to some degree. Laugh out loud when you see a baby fall of a cart because it simply looks hilarious, eventhough a Paladin would still be moved to help the kid after he wipes the laughing tears from his eyes.

How is renegade subtle at all. Being rude, self centered, and physically persuasive (Basically a bully) isn't being evil? Empathetic, politically correct, and persuasive words aren't traits of a good person? They are obviously referring to evil and good. The only difference is they are called something different.

Let's look at what a renegade does in ME (Not gonna spoil things)

Threatens people instead of trying to persuade them peacefully (Evil)

Is mean in basically every way possible and tries to insult anyone he possibly can (Evil)

Has no remorse and kills people at any chance possible (Could not be evil. Certain decisions should not be considered evil that the renegade does, I will give you that.)

Let's look at what a paragon does in ME.

Is nice and sympathetic. Tries to help people in whatever way possible. (Good)

Gives people second chances and doesn't kill the unarmed. (Good)

So let me ask you this...if they were switched up to Good/Evil, wouldn't the decisions you make that add renegade points also add evil points, and the paragon decisions would add good points?