153 réponses à ce sujet

[Impala]

HypesterHypester wrote...

Impala wrote...

I don't play one, I play a character who is neither the renegade nor paragon. The fact is renegade and paragon are on too much of a ridiculous scale to reward someone for going deep on to either side of the scale. My problem is with the blocked out dialogue options is that my character kills people, and is nice to people, yet for some reason I can't do certain actions? It's ridiculous, and there's no way in getting around it. It's honestly like saying that since I killed a drug lord last week who has killed dozens of people I can't convince my friend to stop fighting with someone? That makes no sense at all. The whole Mass Effect morality system is based on flat characters that don't exist. Nearly all of the renegade options are way over the top, and the problem is I have no other option. There is no "Kill the Rachni queen remorsefully" option. It is kill her, and while your doing this action that could save millions of people we're going to make you look like a complete and utter douchebag.

I killed, several times, and I was able to convince my friends to stop fighting, so your analogy does not apply to ME2. The character I'm playing does exist, is not flat, and he is rewarded. You can do all actions, regardless of Paragon Renegade points.  You cannot successfully use all dialogue options, because your reputation does not always support it. That makes perfect sense.

There are some ridiculous options... supporting an Anti-Human criminal politician because the Paragon "believes in Democracy" was a little crazy, (and  further proof it is not a morality system) but most stances are more reasonable, and common to many fictional characters. There are people who will kill an alien killing machine in cold blood without remorse. That's not 'flat.' Especially after fighting those crazy Rachni spawn. There are also people who see the Rachni Queen's side of things and decide to save her.  Are there people who see the Rachni Queen's side of things, but still want to kill her? Why would anyone do that?

Is that particular need: Doing Renegade options "remorsefully" something you regularly find yourself wanting in Mass Effect conversations? If so, that does explain your problem pretty thoroughly. 

In all, it seems like we're playing two different games.  You're saying things aren't possible that I'm doing, effortlessly. I'm sorry that the dialogue in your copy is so unbearable.

Yes I do want to do renegade options remorsefully. You are basically saying it's impossible to disagree with someone and still see their point of view, which is completely false. I see the Rachni queen's point of view, but I can not risk all the lives that could be lost if she is either lying or gets indoctrinated again.  You are further proving that you play a flat character...so you're character never makes decisions where he sees a little bit of both sides? I don't know how you can go through life without making some decisions where you can udnerstand both points of view, but have to make a choice.

I am saying that I should not have to be an **** to make choices that are logical. All the choices that actually make sense when you think about them logically, and think about what the consequences of said action could be are renegade. ( I am not including the options that you do just to be an ****. I am also not talking about the dialogue that goes with said action)

My last point on this is..I should not be unable to do certain actions because I have not fully commited myself to that kind of play style. There is no bonus what so ever for being a character who is not purely paragon or not purely renegade. ( I would also like to emphasize that I have finished ME2 probably between 3 or 4 times and have never been able to convince tali and miranda to stop fighting without one of them getting angry at me. This is including when i uploaded my ME 1 character.) No one in the real world is like this.. at all. No one is purely a renegade, and no one is purely a paragon. You shouldn't reward people for playing a character that makes no sense.


Also I wonder why you think that I shouldnt be making renegade options remorsefully? Maybe I should of used regrettably instead of remorsefully, but I do not udnerstand how people can't comprehend that not every decision you make is 100% clear cut. I would say 90% of important decisions made in every day life aren't clear cut. There are some benefits to each side, but depending on the character one side might be more convincing. I think it should be perfectly fine for me to regrettably kill someone because there is a high possibility that them living, even if they may be innocent, could cause harm to a great amount of people.

Modifié par Impala, 05 mars 2010 - 06:30 .

[AsheraII]

Impala wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Paragon and Renegade have NOTHING to do with good/evil. It's simple as that.

Paragon:
-Politically correct attitude (will try to say things without them sounding offensive)
-Empathic (considers the others' point of view)
-Dialogically persuasive

Renegade:
-Rude attitude (says the things you usually think, and only say out loud with REALLY good friends)
-Self centered (which is not exactly the same thing as being egoistic)
-Physically persuasive

Those are the differences between Paragons and Renegades in a nutshell. Much more realistic and subtle than good vs evil systems imo.

Carrying this over to (for example) D&D, then yes, one could play a Renegade Paladin to some degree. Laugh out loud when you see a baby fall of a cart because it simply looks hilarious, eventhough a Paladin would still be moved to help the kid after he wipes the laughing tears from his eyes.

How is renegade subtle at all. Being rude, self centered, and physically persuasive (Basically a bully) isn't being evil? Empathetic, politically correct, and persuasive words aren't traits of a good person? They are obviously referring to evil and good. The only difference is they are called something different.

Let's look at what a renegade does in ME (Not gonna spoil things)

Threatens people instead of trying to persuade them peacefully (Evil)

Is mean in basically every way possible and tries to insult anyone he possibly can (Evil)

Has no remorse and kills people at any chance possible (Could not be evil. Certain decisions should not be considered evil that the renegade does, I will give you that.)

Let's look at what a paragon does in ME.

Is nice and sympathetic. Tries to help people in whatever way possible. (Good)

Gives people second chances and doesn't kill the unarmed. (Good)

So let me ask you this...if they were switched up to Good/Evil, wouldn't the decisions you make that add renegade points also add evil points, and the paragon decisions would add good points?

No, renegade isn't subtle, the renegade/paragon SYSTEM is more subtle than the good vs evil system.
And no, the system is definitely not interchangable with a good/evil system either. Take a good look at the Zaeed loyalty mission: one road is definitey Paragon, while the other is clearly Renegade. Yet, either outcome is actually GOOD. And the same thing applies to about every Paragon/Renegade choice you're offered. They are never choices between good and evil. They're always choices between 2 evils or between 2 goods.

[Impala]

AsheraII wrote...

Impala wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Paragon and Renegade have NOTHING to do with good/evil. It's simple as that.

Paragon:
-Politically correct attitude (will try to say things without them sounding offensive)
-Empathic (considers the others' point of view)
-Dialogically persuasive

Renegade:
-Rude attitude (says the things you usually think, and only say out loud with REALLY good friends)
-Self centered (which is not exactly the same thing as being egoistic)
-Physically persuasive

Those are the differences between Paragons and Renegades in a nutshell. Much more realistic and subtle than good vs evil systems imo.

Carrying this over to (for example) D&D, then yes, one could play a Renegade Paladin to some degree. Laugh out loud when you see a baby fall of a cart because it simply looks hilarious, eventhough a Paladin would still be moved to help the kid after he wipes the laughing tears from his eyes.

How is renegade subtle at all. Being rude, self centered, and physically persuasive (Basically a bully) isn't being evil? Empathetic, politically correct, and persuasive words aren't traits of a good person? They are obviously referring to evil and good. The only difference is they are called something different.

Let's look at what a renegade does in ME (Not gonna spoil things)

Threatens people instead of trying to persuade them peacefully (Evil)

Is mean in basically every way possible and tries to insult anyone he possibly can (Evil)

Has no remorse and kills people at any chance possible (Could not be evil. Certain decisions should not be considered evil that the renegade does, I will give you that.)

Let's look at what a paragon does in ME.

Is nice and sympathetic. Tries to help people in whatever way possible. (Good)

Gives people second chances and doesn't kill the unarmed. (Good)

So let me ask you this...if they were switched up to Good/Evil, wouldn't the decisions you make that add renegade points also add evil points, and the paragon decisions would add good points?

No, renegade isn't subtle, the renegade/paragon SYSTEM is more subtle than the good vs evil system.
And no, the system is definitely not interchangable with a good/evil system either. Take a good look at the Zaeed loyalty mission: one road is definitey Paragon, while the other is clearly Renegade. Yet, either outcome is actually GOOD. And the same thing applies to about every Paragon/Renegade choice you're offered. They are never choices between good and evil. They're always choices between 2 evils or between 2 goods.

i am going to have to just plainly disagree with you here. I do agree that some renegade decisions are not evil, and some paragon decisions are not good (Well actually..they all might be). I am just saying that the overall characteristics that make up a renegade player strongly correlate to being evil. Even if you don't fully agree I don't see how anyone could not see the correlation when you closely look at the actions that add either renegade or paragon points.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Neither Paragon or Renegade choices are good or evil. They are both just a means to an end and they usually achieve the same thing just taking a different road. (Shoot the terrorist preventing him from killing ever again or convincing said terrorist to give himself up). There are however some choices which deviates from this norm, like BDTS where you either kill the terrorist or save the captives.

[Inarai]

Impala wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Impala wrote...

AsheraII wrote...

Paragon and Renegade have NOTHING to do with good/evil. It's simple as that.

Paragon:
-Politically correct attitude (will try to say things without them sounding offensive)
-Empathic (considers the others' point of view)
-Dialogically persuasive

Renegade:
-Rude attitude (says the things you usually think, and only say out loud with REALLY good friends)
-Self centered (which is not exactly the same thing as being egoistic)
-Physically persuasive

Those are the differences between Paragons and Renegades in a nutshell. Much more realistic and subtle than good vs evil systems imo.

Carrying this over to (for example) D&D, then yes, one could play a Renegade Paladin to some degree. Laugh out loud when you see a baby fall of a cart because it simply looks hilarious, eventhough a Paladin would still be moved to help the kid after he wipes the laughing tears from his eyes.

How is renegade subtle at all. Being rude, self centered, and physically persuasive (Basically a bully) isn't being evil? Empathetic, politically correct, and persuasive words aren't traits of a good person? They are obviously referring to evil and good. The only difference is they are called something different.

Let's look at what a renegade does in ME (Not gonna spoil things)

Threatens people instead of trying to persuade them peacefully (Evil)

Is mean in basically every way possible and tries to insult anyone he possibly can (Evil)

Has no remorse and kills people at any chance possible (Could not be evil. Certain decisions should not be considered evil that the renegade does, I will give you that.)

Let's look at what a paragon does in ME.

Is nice and sympathetic. Tries to help people in whatever way possible. (Good)

Gives people second chances and doesn't kill the unarmed. (Good)

So let me ask you this...if they were switched up to Good/Evil, wouldn't the decisions you make that add renegade points also add evil points, and the paragon decisions would add good points?

No, renegade isn't subtle, the renegade/paragon SYSTEM is more subtle than the good vs evil system.
And no, the system is definitely not interchangable with a good/evil system either. Take a good look at the Zaeed loyalty mission: one road is definitey Paragon, while the other is clearly Renegade. Yet, either outcome is actually GOOD. And the same thing applies to about every Paragon/Renegade choice you're offered. They are never choices between good and evil. They're always choices between 2 evils or between 2 goods.

i am going to have to just plainly disagree with you here. I do agree that some renegade decisions are not evil, and some paragon decisions are not good (Well actually..they all might be). I am just saying that the overall characteristics that make up a renegade player strongly correlate to being evil. Even if you don't fully agree I don't see how anyone could not see the correlation when you closely look at the actions that add either renegade or paragon points.

Evil isn't defined by by waving guns in peoples faces, shooting people, pushing people out windos, etc. for a reason.  And the renegade has a reason.  Now, if youg go full renegade, it's also a bundle of political positions.  You do not have to go full renegade.

However, conversational skills need to come back.  And maybe instead of marking them as distinctly Paragon/Renegade, mark the options with the actual name of the skill.  I can see times, for example, that someone might be scared of a Paragon action, like being thrown in jail.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AsheraII wrote...

Paragon and Renegade have NOTHING to do with good/evil. It's simple as that.

Paragon:
-Politically correct attitude (will try to say things without them sounding offensive)
-Empathic (considers the others' point of view)
-Dialogically persuasive

Renegade:
-Rude attitude (says the things you usually think, and only say out loud with REALLY good friends)
-Self centered (which is not exactly the same thing as being egoistic)
-Physically persuasive

Unfortunately, neither of those is a character I want to play.

I'd rather:
-Politically correct attitude (will try to say things without them sounding offensive)
-Self centered (which is not exactly the same thing as being egoistic)
-Unpersuasive

But try to mix-and-match paragon and renegade traits in ME when the game won't actually tell you what it is you're doing in advance.

[AsheraII]

A spindocter would be a perfect example of a rl modern day Paragon. I doubt you would say how spindocters are exactly "good", unless they're on your side. They don't exactly lie, but just make things sound in a way you want to hear things, by highlighting components that would be to your advantage or preferences, while removing the focus from components of the discussion you disagree with. Some people would consider this evil, while it is a paragon action. So Paragon-evil.



A (less perfect) example of a renegade could be a policeman talking to someone standing on the ledge of a 10 story building, threatening to shoot the suicider if he jumps. It's definitely not by the book, but if the person who wants to commit suicide is one of many who are actually not through with life, but is calling out for attention, then the policeman's threat might actually work. A most obvious renegade-good action.



If you really wish to AD&D-ify the paragon-renegade system, then you're probably closer to the mark by comparing Paragon with Lawfull and Renegade with Chaotic than you are by comparing them to good-evil. And even then, the comparison won't hold ground.

[Impala]

AsheraII wrote...

A spindocter would be a perfect example of a rl modern day Paragon. I doubt you would say how spindocters are exactly "good", unless they're on your side. They don't exactly lie, but just make things sound in a way you want to hear things, by highlighting components that would be to your advantage or preferences, while removing the focus from components of the discussion you disagree with. Some people would consider this evil, while it is a paragon action. So Paragon-evil.

A (less perfect) example of a renegade could be a policeman talking to someone standing on the ledge of a 10 story building, threatening to shoot the suicider if he jumps. It's definitely not by the book, but if the person who wants to commit suicide is one of many who are actually not through with life, but is calling out for attention, then the policeman's threat might actually work. A most obvious renegade-good action.

If you really wish to AD&D-ify the paragon-renegade system, then you're probably closer to the mark by comparing Paragon with Lawfull and Renegade with Chaotic than you are by comparing them to good-evil. And even then, the comparison won't hold ground.

I still think my original comparison holds ground for the most part. The fact is you are picking and choosing actions...what about the times wher it adds renegade points by simply being an A-hole. No wanting to finish the mission faster, and no being a renegade, just being a total and complete A-hole for no reason. That is the biggest problem I have, along with the dialogue that accompanies "Renegade" decisions like the rachni queen. I will admit that the dialogue annoys me much more than the actual actions. Maybe I just want more options so I can be a non-****hole renegade.

Modifié par Impala, 05 mars 2010 - 07:46 .

[AsheraII]

Being or acting an A-hole still isn't the same thing as being evil. Being a renegade basically means you're an a-hole, but it still doesn't mean you're evil.

[HypesterHypester]

Impala wrote...

HypesterHypester wrote...
I killed, several times, and I was able to convince my friends to stop fighting, so your analogy does not apply to ME2. The character I'm playing does exist, is not flat, and he is rewarded. You can do all actions, regardless of Paragon Renegade points.  You cannot successfully use all dialogue options, because your reputation does not always support it. That makes perfect sense.

There are some ridiculous options... supporting an Anti-Human criminal politician because the Paragon "believes in Democracy" was a little crazy, (and  further proof it is not a morality system) but most stances are more reasonable, and common to many fictional characters. There are people who will kill an alien killing machine in cold blood without remorse. That's not 'flat.' Especially after fighting those crazy Rachni spawn. There are also people who see the Rachni Queen's side of things and decide to save her.  Are there people who see the Rachni Queen's side of things, but still want to kill her? Why would anyone do that?

Is that particular need: Doing Renegade options "remorsefully" something you regularly find yourself wanting in Mass Effect conversations? If so, that does explain your problem pretty thoroughly.

In all, it seems like we're playing two different games.  You're saying things aren't possible that I'm doing, effortlessly. I'm sorry that the dialogue in your copy is so unbearable.

Yes I do want to do renegade options remorsefully. You are basically saying it's impossible to disagree with someone and still see their point of view, which is completely false. I see the Rachni queen's point of view, but I can not risk all the lives that could be lost if she is either lying or gets indoctrinated again.  You are further proving that you play a flat character...so you're character never makes decisions where he sees a little bit of both sides? I don't know how you can go through life without making some decisions where you can udnerstand both points of view, but have to make a choice.

I am saying that I should not have to be an **** to make choices that are logical. All the choices that actually make sense when you think about them logically, and think about what the consequences of said action could be are renegade. ( I am not including the options that you do just to be an ****. I am also not talking about the dialogue that goes with said action)

My last point on this is..I should not be unable to do certain actions because I have not fully commited myself to that kind of play style. There is no bonus what so ever for being a character who is not purely paragon or not purely renegade. ( I would also like to emphasize that I have finished ME2 probably between 3 or 4 times and have never been able to convince tali and miranda to stop fighting without one of them getting angry at me. This is including when i uploaded my ME 1 character.) No one in the real world is like this.. at all. No one is purely a renegade, and no one is purely a paragon. You shouldn't reward people for playing a character that makes no sense.


Also I wonder why you think that I shouldnt be making renegade options remorsefully? Maybe I should of used regrettably instead of remorsefully, but I do not udnerstand how people can't comprehend that not every decision you make is 100% clear cut. I would say 90% of important decisions made in every day life aren't clear cut. There are some benefits to each side, but depending on the character one side might be more convincing. I think it should be perfectly fine for me to regrettably kill someone because there is a high possibility that them living, even if they may be innocent, could cause harm to a great amount of people.

Now my character is flat? Incredible... I wonder how you explain all these Renegade points I have. :whatever:

My character sees both sides, but they also believe, fully, in the decisions that they make, that it is the best decision they could have made. While most decisions can be questioned, there's a great divide between questions and regret or remorse. That implies that you know, on some level, there was something bad about your choice as you made it. This way angst lies, and ansty people, logically, are less equipped to make others believe what they believe, because they don't fully believe it themselves. Again, Paragon/Renegade, while somewhat simplistic, but not to the degree you desribe, makes sense.

Another archetype which your character fits is a kind of "anti-hero" the one who does bad things, but is a nice person. While this archetype is popular, it only works when A) The storyline forces these actions, removing player choice and The alignment system is irrelevant, since the Anti-Hero is on both ends at once. Mass Effect is not either, so that wouldn't make sense.

And personally, I didn't see a reason to kill the Rachni Queen.  There was no indication she was lying and Soverign wasn't coming back for her, one way or another. I didn't like releasing someone who I had just spent half the day fighting, but I couldn't find any objective reason to kill her.

I'm not sure how everyday life, where 99% of decisioins are neither important nor require commitment, got into your arugment.

Regardless, I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this.  I play a game where I am not purely Paragon and still get all of the Paragon benefits and some of the Renegade benefits. While there is some dialogue that is obscene, most of it, on both extremes, is plausible for the character. You play a game where everything except your playstyle makes no sense. -shrug-

Have fun, bro.  Let's just agree to disagree.

[rwilli80]

I actually wouldn't mind the charm/intimidate stats back, I also would like the chance to use all the dialogue options, wither I am playing a good guy or a douche bag.



And what I mean by that, say you're walking up to some mercenaries and they tell you to mind your own business. Well you decide to pull your weapon to threaten them, but they know your rep as a good guy so they just laugh you off, they still concede to walk off but they're laughing at you for acting like a tough guy. Of course at the end of that you might be able to have a renegade response by shooting them in the back, to prove you are someone you don't mess with.

[Impala]

HypesterHypester wrote...

Impala wrote...

HypesterHypester wrote...
I killed, several times, and I was able to convince my friends to stop fighting, so your analogy does not apply to ME2. The character I'm playing does exist, is not flat, and he is rewarded. You can do all actions, regardless of Paragon Renegade points.  You cannot successfully use all dialogue options, because your reputation does not always support it. That makes perfect sense.

There are some ridiculous options... supporting an Anti-Human criminal politician because the Paragon "believes in Democracy" was a little crazy, (and  further proof it is not a morality system) but most stances are more reasonable, and common to many fictional characters. There are people who will kill an alien killing machine in cold blood without remorse. That's not 'flat.' Especially after fighting those crazy Rachni spawn. There are also people who see the Rachni Queen's side of things and decide to save her.  Are there people who see the Rachni Queen's side of things, but still want to kill her? Why would anyone do that?

Is that particular need: Doing Renegade options "remorsefully" something you regularly find yourself wanting in Mass Effect conversations? If so, that does explain your problem pretty thoroughly.

In all, it seems like we're playing two different games.  You're saying things aren't possible that I'm doing, effortlessly. I'm sorry that the dialogue in your copy is so unbearable.

Yes I do want to do renegade options remorsefully. You are basically saying it's impossible to disagree with someone and still see their point of view, which is completely false. I see the Rachni queen's point of view, but I can not risk all the lives that could be lost if she is either lying or gets indoctrinated again.  You are further proving that you play a flat character...so you're character never makes decisions where he sees a little bit of both sides? I don't know how you can go through life without making some decisions where you can udnerstand both points of view, but have to make a choice.

I am saying that I should not have to be an **** to make choices that are logical. All the choices that actually make sense when you think about them logically, and think about what the consequences of said action could be are renegade. ( I am not including the options that you do just to be an ****. I am also not talking about the dialogue that goes with said action)

My last point on this is..I should not be unable to do certain actions because I have not fully commited myself to that kind of play style. There is no bonus what so ever for being a character who is not purely paragon or not purely renegade. ( I would also like to emphasize that I have finished ME2 probably between 3 or 4 times and have never been able to convince tali and miranda to stop fighting without one of them getting angry at me. This is including when i uploaded my ME 1 character.) No one in the real world is like this.. at all. No one is purely a renegade, and no one is purely a paragon. You shouldn't reward people for playing a character that makes no sense.


Also I wonder why you think that I shouldnt be making renegade options remorsefully? Maybe I should of used regrettably instead of remorsefully, but I do not udnerstand how people can't comprehend that not every decision you make is 100% clear cut. I would say 90% of important decisions made in every day life aren't clear cut. There are some benefits to each side, but depending on the character one side might be more convincing. I think it should be perfectly fine for me to regrettably kill someone because there is a high possibility that them living, even if they may be innocent, could cause harm to a great amount of people.

Now my character is flat? Incredible... I wonder how you explain all these Renegade points I have. :whatever:

My character sees both sides, but they also believe, fully, in the decisions that they make, that it is the best decision they could have made. While most decisions can be questioned, there's a great divide between questions and regret or remorse. That implies that you know, on some level, there was something bad about your choice as you made it. This way angst lies, and ansty people, logically, are less equipped to make others believe what they believe, because they don't fully believe it themselves. Again, Paragon/Renegade, while somewhat simplistic, but not to the degree you desribe, makes sense.

Another archetype which your character fits is a kind of "anti-hero" the one who does bad things, but is a nice person. While this archetype is popular, it only works when A) The storyline forces these actions, removing player choice and The alignment system is irrelevant, since the Anti-Hero is on both ends at once. Mass Effect is not either, so that wouldn't make sense.

And personally, I didn't see a reason to kill the Rachni Queen.  There was no indication she was lying and Soverign wasn't coming back for her, one way or another. I didn't like releasing someone who I had just spent half the day fighting, but I couldn't find any objective reason to kill her.

I'm not sure how everyday life, where 99% of decisioins are neither important nor require commitment, got into your arugment.

Regardless, I don't think we're going to get anywhere with this.  I play a game where I am not purely Paragon and still get all of the Paragon benefits and some of the Renegade benefits. While there is some dialogue that is obscene, most of it, on both extremes, is plausible for the character. You play a game where everything except your playstyle makes no sense. -shrug-

Have fun, bro.  Let's just agree to disagree.

Haha alright man. i didnt mean to offend you if i did...I sometimes say things the wrong way in these arguments lol. I think some people just like it how it is and some people don't I guess. I think making the dialogue options more expansive couldn't hurt though.

[Captain Crash]

Lets boil down to the facts



Renegade and paragon are an integral part of ME as a result of the decisions you take. Its what makes the game work and no matter what this will always be the case. Bioware wont change a integral feature of the game. Good and bad decisions are renegade and paragon after all. As result of this we will see the bar continue for ME3. It works so why change it? Sometimes things need to be as simple as back and white.

[Dualcode]

So i skipped the Walls of text on the last page because honestly, you people are talking in circles. Round and round it goes..

My Point is, neither Renegade nor Paragon do make Sense if you apply that morality to real world. Yes "its a game" only works for so long as a Excuse. If you consider it "just a game" then you do not immerse yourself in the Game anyway as why should you be that deep in a fictional Story if you can not relate to it in any Form? The Problem is that most of the Paragon/Renegade Options come down as a 100% Black OR 100% White respectively. Why is that? Morality is not Black/White, its Shades of Grey, there is somewhat more evil Things but also something that is not necessarily bad. For example, in ME stealing would be considered Renegade, regardless of the Reason you would steal for. Most of the time so is killing. Why am i being punished in some Form because i believe one Solution to the Problem to be more effective than the other?

Lets take Zaeed's Loyalty Mission, you can either save the Workers, or go after Vigo. Both sides have merit as a solution, either you save alot of People but in the end have to let the Guy mostly responsible for alot of evil stuff go, or go hunt him down but let a few people die "for the greater good". In this moment the Alignment makes sense, both are considered "good" in the overlying sense, but the way to achieve the Outcome is different. The Problem with that however is that there is no Option to help the Workers and still get Vigo, i mean the Normandy is in Space, its got Guns, just shoot him down. There is no Neutral Options that really matter, thats mainly what bugs me.

Modifié par Dualcode, 07 mars 2010 - 08:19 .

[lukandroll]

The problem itself, its that there is no gray in the middle...



The solution to this could be a global persuasion skills that adds both paragon and renegade responses, that way YOU can pick the responses according to your characters morals

[FataliTensei]

Keep paragon renegade, make different characters react to each differently

[Nokterne]

Why not have neutral conversation options give you a combination of paragon and renegade points, instead of giving you nothing? That would allow us "grey" people to still earn points without feeling obligated to be an ultra space badass or vice-versa.

[camcon2100]

i hate how on tough decisions you can skim by them by being paragon or renegade.......

[FlintlockJazz]

Yes, lets remove yet another feature of the game. Please, how about instead of pushing for something to be removed people instead push for it to be improved? I already lost the mako thanks for threads like these!

[Tazzmission]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Yes, lets remove yet another feature of the game. Please, how about instead of pushing for something to be removed people instead push for it to be improved? I already lost the mako thanks for threads like these!

what me3 really needs is more ppl to talk to to gain paragon points and renegade..... i almost had that everyone lives achievment until i f'ed up  and jack died

[wrexfan32hanalei]

at the beginning of the game they should have you choose a set of beliefs and have that be paragon/renegade.

[HypesterHypester]

Dualcode wrote...

So i skipped the Walls of text on the last page because honestly, you people are talking in circles. Round and round it goes..

My Point is, neither Renegade nor Paragon do make Sense if you apply that morality to real world. Yes "its a game" only works for so long as a Excuse. If you consider it "just a game" then you do not immerse yourself in the Game anyway as why should you be that deep in a fictional Story if you can not relate to it in any Form? The Problem is that most of the Paragon/Renegade Options come down as a 100% Black OR 100% White respectively. Why is that? Morality is not Black/White, its Shades of Grey, there is somewhat more evil Things but also something that is not necessarily bad. For example, in ME stealing would be considered Renegade, regardless of the Reason you would steal for. Most of the time so is killing. Why am i being punished in some Form because i believe one Solution to the Problem to be more effective than the other?

Lets take Zaeed's Loyalty Mission, you can either save the Workers, or go after Vigo. Both sides have merit as a solution, either you save alot of People but in the end have to let the Guy mostly responsible for alot of evil stuff go, or go hunt him down but let a few people die "for the greater good". In this moment the Alignment makes sense, both are considered "good" in the overlying sense, but the way to achieve the Outcome is different. The Problem with that however is that there is no Option to help the Workers and still get Vigo, i mean the Normandy is in Space, its got Guns, just shoot him down. There is no Neutral Options that really matter, thats mainly what bugs me.

tl:dr version - it's not a morality scale.

Neutral means neither one nor the other, not half one and half the other.  The Neutral thing to do on Zaeed's mission is neither to save the workers or to stop Vigo, but just to sit there being neutral.  A "both" option, where you can stop vigo AND save the workers, makes choice irrelevant, you don't have to choose, you can do both. If having choice annoys you because you can't choose everything, then I'm sorry, but that is part of why Bioware is awesome.

[OneDrunkMonk]

In ME2 I found myself playing a Paragon as in ME1 but making some Renegade choices that I felt certain situations called for. I felt my Renegade choices in ME2 still fit my Paragon character. So I'm rather confused as to these terms 'Paragon and 'Renegade.' My Shep was a well rounded character; sometimes compassionate and understanding, sometimes a take no B.S. tough guy/gal.

[Brayton]

Being someone who always goes on the good path, because I look at myself, I know that the paragon/renegade system is more true to real life then being able to choose a neutral option because look at history.....what has nuetral ever done? Really....nothing, get over it.