153 réponses à ce sujet

[Vagrant91684]

I'm with the OP on this. The fact that virtually every decision you're going to make is decided at the start when you must choose to either be a complete dick, or be a total saint. Say what you will, but those are the only options you have if you want things to be productive. Honestly, how many neutral conversation options did you pick? Probably close to none, since neutral means that instead of benefiting for your extreme actions/reactions, the game acts like you made no decision at all, and there are virtually no benefits to doing that. What if I want to be a good guy that occasionally has a temper? Or maybe my Shepard is a racist and treats humans with kindness, but is an ass to all aliens. These are just a couple personality types that the paragon/renegade system doesn't allow me to indulge. Without the paragon/renegade meter restricting my options and rewards, my Shepard would be free to make any decision based on how he was feeling at that moment, which is what the game is SUPPOSED to be...

[lukandroll]

I don't think its possible to scrap the paragon/renegade options.

The easy solution for this its a global persuasion skill that adds both paragon and renegade responses, that way YOU can pick the responses according of how you feel.

[Segameister]

Aeclypso wrote...

Alternatives to your point: Keep the Paragon/Renegade points for Mass Effect 3, but do not allow them to influence your decisions i.e. a full Paragon Bar with a depleted Renegade Bar will still enable Renegade decisions... Yes?

I think having specific renegade / paragon conversation options (mmm... paragade!) greyed out depending on your status makes the points from discussions choices VERY relevant.  Allowing them to be accessable at any time would be what makes them irrelevant.

I say keep them in - it's a guage of who you are - good / bad...

[FlintlockJazz]

RockingKraut wrote...

Being someone who always goes on the good path, because I look at myself, I know that the paragon/renegade system is more true to real life then being able to choose a neutral option because look at history.....what has nuetral ever done? Really....nothing, get over it.

"All I know is that my gut says maybe."

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 08 mars 2010 - 10:51 .

[TJSolo]

Vagrant91684 wrote...

I'm with the OP on this. The fact that virtually every decision you're going to make is decided at the start when you must choose to either be a complete dick, or be a total saint. Say what you will, but those are the only options you have if you want things to be productive. Honestly, how many neutral conversation options did you pick? Probably close to none, since neutral means that instead of benefiting for your extreme actions/reactions, the game acts like you made no decision at all, and there are virtually no benefits to doing that. What if I want to be a good guy that occasionally has a temper? Or maybe my Shepard is a racist and treats humans with kindness, but is an ass to all aliens. These are just a couple personality types that the paragon/renegade system doesn't allow me to indulge. Without the paragon/renegade meter restricting my options and rewards, my Shepard would be free to make any decision based on how he was feeling at that moment, which is what the game is SUPPOSED to be...

When P and R options come up in the game there are still white options on the right to pick.
Yes, when you start a new game deciding if you will play it as P or R should factor in but picking one doesn't excluding doing the opposite choice; that is a players call. You can still mix and match them to your preferences it is just a person the mixes more than someone that is consistant on one side will have a few less options.

Having a few less options because you don't want to be consistent is a consequence just like not going full Light/Dark in Kotor you don't get the respective casting discounts and miss out on the opposite dialogue.

There are white decisions that are basic P and R picks but not to the extreme the colored options are; so you are free to pick on how you are feeling.

Removing P/R would negatively effect the overall ME series because it would punish those that have ME1/2 imports with multiple Shepards who have full P or R.
Removing P/R would only satisfy people that want full access to P/R dialogue without actually making the decision to fill either up.
Those that want to have middle of the road decisions or light P/R. Please just look and read the white dialogue options because those will work for your wants.

[Prof. Shifty]

RynoZeros,



In my ME2 play through I was a total dick! I was able to have both of those girls to shut up! Quote"... I don't care what happens after the mission, Till then you both will live onseperateends of the ship...!".

[Anjinsan]

How about STFU and enjoy the game or go make a better game. Now i remember why i hate coming to the forums. TROLLS

[Prof. Shifty]

Anjin, Then go the **** away! It's a place express our opions! Don't like it? Get lost, simply put!

[Schneidend]

Dethateer wrote...

Qario wrote...

Paragon and renegade are more than just points you aquire. The game, both ME1 and ME2, the whole story has 2 main directions, and these are paragon and renegade. Looking at the big picture taking the paragon path in the game will probably (hopefully) result in all the races fighting together against the reapers, this theory is streangthened by the geth reprogramming, saving the rachnii queen and saving the council. The renegade path in the game will probably show how humanity alone defeats the reapers.... somehow.

And that is a good thing... how? You're forgetting that if you're a paragon when it comes to bringing species together (SPECIES, NOT RACES), but a renegade when, say, interrogating someone, you're f**ked when the conflicts on the ship come up.

I've managed to successfully play a largely Renegade (at least, that's how he ends up, since I tend to choose dialogue options organically) character who is nice to quarians and crew and is pleasant in civil conversation simply by doing Renegade interupts, being hostile in conversations with obvious enemies, and being racist against batarians. This idea that to solve every crew conflict you need to pick Renegade options throughout the entire game is absurdly exaggerated. The only conflict I've ever failed to solve with an Intimidate was convincing Tali and Legion to back off of each other, but I always have enough Paragon to solve it that way, regardless.

As long as you don't pass up an opportunity to earn points by picking too many neutral dialogue choices, you should be fine for 99% of the Intimidate/Charm checks in the game. The number of chances you've had to earn points versus the number of points you have earned in total directly factor in to how difficult your Persuasion checks are. If you miss a lot of opportunities, it will snowball, but there are tons of opportunities. Again, as long as you're not waffling, you should be golden.

Also, this "nice guy" versus "douche" thing needs to stop, thread. I feel like I somehow played a completely different game when I hear things like that. Picking Renegade responses doesn't make Shepard call everybody a "f-g" and punch them in the thigh or shoulder, or wear a hat backwards. They just have a slightly harder edge. For example, on Freedom's Progress, you can tell Tali that you should work together or that the quarians should go back to their ship while Shepard, Miranda, and Jacob handle the rescue. That's not "nice" versus "ass," that's "we could use some help" versus "you guys should stay out of harm's way." They're decisions, and nothing more.

As an aside, the "race"/"species" thing is a stupid, pointless distinction. "Race" as we normally tend to use it is merely a social construct. It is artificial, and no longer in technical use in anthropology, because the supposedly distinct differences that make a "race" are not universal among that "race". That definition is barely a footnote in up-to-date dictionaries. "A group of persons related by common descent or heredity," on the other hand, is a bit more current, and also happens to apply to sapient species, who are in fact all very distantly related.

Modifié par Schneidend, 11 mars 2010 - 07:49 .

[AlanC9]

TJSolo wrote...

Vagrant91684 wrote...
 What if I want to be a good guy that occasionally has a temper? Or maybe my Shepard is a racist and treats humans with kindness, but is an ass to all aliens. These are just a couple personality types that the paragon/renegade system doesn't allow me to indulge.

Having a few less options because you don't want to be consistent is a consequence just like not going full Light/Dark in Kotor you don't get the respective casting discounts and miss out on the opposite dialogue.

Right, and alignment sucked in KotOR too. But in that case it's because the SW universe sucks, so it's not Bio's fault.

I'm including Vagrant91684's post because he's not trying to be inconsistent. He's trying to play a type of character that is penalized by the P/R meter. At least engage with people's points if you're going to quote them. Even if you're just going to say "sucks to be you -- characters that don't fit the stereotypes are simply going to be penalized."

[TJSolo]

AlanC9 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Vagrant91684 wrote...
 What if I want to be a good guy that occasionally has a temper? Or maybe my Shepard is a racist and treats humans with kindness, but is an ass to all aliens. These are just a couple personality types that the paragon/renegade system doesn't allow me to indulge.

Having a few less options because you don't want to be consistent is a consequence just like not going full Light/Dark in Kotor you don't get the respective casting discounts and miss out on the opposite dialogue.

Right, and alignment sucked in KotOR too. But in that case it's because the SW universe sucks, so it's not Bio's fault.

I'm including Vagrant91684's post because he's not trying to be inconsistent. He's trying to play a type of character that is penalized by the P/R meter. At least engage with people's points if you're going to quote them. Even if you're just going to say "sucks to be you -- characters that don't fit the stereotypes are simply going to be penalized."

People saying they are punished for playing a "good guy that occasionally has a temper" and not being able to reap the rewards of the P/R system if they do not follow it to the extremes.
There isn't a punishment but there are consequences for picking a path and there are consquences for not picking a path.
The consequence of going Paragon, is not having access to high Renegade morality checks.
The consequence of going Renegade, is not having access to high Paragon morality checks.
The consequence of being chaotic, sparatic, middle ground, indecisive, malcom in the middle; is the player does not get access to high morality checks of either but can still have wide access to both.

Even if a person picks a path there isn't a guarantee that they will pass all the morality checks in the game, unless the player knows to save some of the higher checks for later in the game.

Being able to solve a verbal problem by using P/R is a reward for being able to choose a path; which is part of the design of the non-combat in ME. The white text is very effective if one wants to mix things up and white text is enough to solve most issues in ME2.

The call to eliminate P/R is extreme and self-serving for people that want all the non-combat rewards without actually picking between P/R. The white text accommodates for the inbetweens.

[Ackillez]

So what you're saying is that Bioware should reward players for making their characters a stereotype instead of a complex entity? Great logic there.

And lol at the idea that sometimes using renegade options and sometimes using paragon is somehow 'inconsistent'. The entire paragon and renegade system is inconsistent! I dare anyone to make a comprehensive definition of what 'paragon' and 'renegade' entails, that fits with every single distribution of paragon/renegade points.

Modifié par Ackillez, 11 mars 2010 - 08:33 .

[Tinmachine]

No.

I understand that the more paragon/renegade hard decisions and resolutiions you make, the easier it is for you to solve impossible situations by applying the force of your will, as you have done it countless times before. Experience. If you have no experience bullying people, you sure cannot bully a geth into changing its mind. With no experience in being a self-sacrificing altruist, it sure is difficult to persuade people to put aside their differencies for the common good. Not saying it works this way in real life, just that this concept is perfectly justifiable and that I like it.

I was perhaps generally not happy with how decisions were labelled renegade/paragon in ME2, and with the fact that almost no paragon choices carry any risk of being "wrong" about people or situations. Other than that, I like this system as it is. Just adjust the fact that a renegade Shepard is NOT a person whose goal is to be irrationally evil badass: he is a person who thinks that beating reapers and ensuring humanity's survival justifies near anything. That still does not make him a triggerhappy sadist bent on eradicating other species: and if so, it'd be good if Bioware clarified that.

Both are heroes. Just different kinds of heroes. There is no "evil" or "good" path, in my opinion.

Anyway, a CLEAR differentiation between paragon and renegade is somewhat missing in ME2. What are their goals here? A renegade in ME1 had a clear mentality of lessening the diverity of species, lessening the power of the surviving ones, so that his own people would be safe. A survival of human culture was his ultimate goal: he fought Cerberus, fought human criminals, he was a hero to the humans. A Paragon was a galactic hero, sacrificing some human power and lifes to promote the power of the Council - a multicultural guy. But can you write such a clear distinction in ME2? I do not know where renegade/paragon stand: it would be ok iif that was the actual plan, that the two paths blur and merge when Shepard faced the horrible odds, but that simply is not the feeling.

The things paragon/renegade stand for need to be clarified. The concept needn't be changed.

[Ackillez]

Tinmachine wrote...
Anyway, a CLEAR differentiation between paragon and renegade is somewhat missing in ME2. What are their goals here? A renegade in ME1 had a clear mentality of lessening the diverity of species, lessening the power of the surviving ones, so that his own people would be safe. A survival of human culture was his ultimate goal: he fought Cerberus, fought human criminals, he was a hero to the humans. A Paragon was a galactic hero, sacrificing some human power and lifes to promote the power of the Council - a multicultural guy. But can you write such a clear distinction in ME2? I do not know where renegade/paragon stand: it would be ok iif that was the actual plan, that the two paths blur and merge when Shepard faced the horrible odds, but that simply is not the feeling.

Somehow I get the feeling we weren't playing the same mass Effect. You're aware that butchering the colonists of Feros was a renegade action? Slipping depressants to the alliance negotiator? Selling info on Cerberus (alliance data) to the Shadow Broker?

[TJSolo]

The Paragon/Renegade paths are not Good and Evil.

Shepard is considered a good guy no matter which path is taken.

Picking Paragon/Renegade are options on how Shep goes down the path of Good.

Both canon Superman and Batman are good but each morally Batman would be considered renegade.



The actual writing of some of the Paragon/Renegade lines are inconsistent, I agree. Too many times have I picked a Paragon line, heard it, and had to double check what I actually picked.

That is cause to improve the difference between the two not eliminate them.

[EternalWolfe]

My own thoughts on the matter: I don't think it has to be removed to fix one thing. I should be able to say whatever I wish - regardless of whether I succed or not due to lack of P/R. If I think my character would say something, I should be able to say it - even if my character isn't able to pull it off and convice the other person. But thats just my personal thought on the matter.



Wouldn't mind something like DA:O, where you have a skill for persuasion(a single skill, not two) and Paragon/Renegade scores effect your chance like Cunning/Strength do.

[Halo Quea]

TJSolo wrote...

The Paragon/Renegade paths are not Good and Evil.
Shepard is considered a good guy no matter which path is taken.
Picking Paragon/Renegade are options on how Shep goes down the path of Good.
Both canon Superman and Batman are good but each morally Batman would be considered renegade.

The actual writing of some of the Paragon/Renegade lines are inconsistent, I agree. Too many times have I picked a Paragon line, heard it, and had to double check what I actually picked.

I know what you mean.  

There were so many times in the game where I got Renegade points and couldn't figure out why.  Even the most benign responses were rewarded with Renegade points. 

[Tinmachine]

Ackillez wrote...

Tinmachine wrote...
Anyway, a CLEAR differentiation between paragon and renegade is somewhat missing in ME2. What are their goals here? A renegade in ME1 had a clear mentality of lessening the diverity of species, lessening the power of the surviving ones, so that his own people would be safe. A survival of human culture was his ultimate goal: he fought Cerberus, fought human criminals, he was a hero to the humans. A Paragon was a galactic hero, sacrificing some human power and lifes to promote the power of the Council - a multicultural guy. But can you write such a clear distinction in ME2? I do not know where renegade/paragon stand: it would be ok iif that was the actual plan, that the two paths blur and merge when Shepard faced the horrible odds, but that simply is not the feeling.

Somehow I get the feeling we weren't playing the same mass Effect. You're aware that butchering the colonists of Feros was a renegade action? Slipping depressants to the alliance negotiator? Selling info on Cerberus (alliance data) to the Shadow Broker?

Not taking any risks would fit into the "renegade" option. No matter what: saving colonists may take extra effort. You are self-financing: hence, selling info on Cerberus may aid you cause (it wasn't that you were selling Alliance secrets anyway). I am not sure about the depressants for the human negotiator: I as renegade gave some "permormance-enhancement" drugs to some diplomat outside a bar, something that would boost his performance on the next day, but ultimately quite likely cause him severe problems (i.e. cause "not my" problems).

Anyway, I backing off a bit, my words about human "culture" could be wrongly interpreted. Make that "civilization". And the point would be that even if some decision alignment may feel odd there, the idea of paragon/renegade decision-making is somehow clear from the start.

That is not saying I could not picture a utilitarian Renegade saving Rachni to further his own ends, or a paragon wiping them out because he wouldn't endanger the peace in the galaxy. But to me, the concept was there. In ME2, there is very little of it.

[Tinmachine]

lukandroll wrote...

I don't think its possible to scrap the paragon/renegade options.
The easy solution for this its a global persuasion skill that adds both paragon and renegade responses, that way YOU can pick the responses according of how you feel.

There is one. If you play smart enough and take the +100 percent renegade/paragon points passive skill, you can click almost every paragon/renegade option there is. Another bonus can be provided by the Mask you can buy on Tuchanka. In fact, I believe there are too many options to allow for a near-full-score-Paragon choose Renegade responses in a heated situation.

But I would agree with a few here who said that neutral choices were not being rewarded. Yes. From the gameplay point of view, they are dumb. I can live with the fact that regarding ME2, being neutral about something means not knowing what you want to do and, thus, needing punishment. But I could live happier with a better solution than that. Being too much of a renegade could hurt your chances sometimes, perhaps? Being too much of a paragon would make certain "circles" not want to talk to you? Then it would make sense that you would want to stay away from too much blue and too much red.

[Kali-yuga]

limzz wrote...

   I made this account just so I could post this and am unfamiliar with these forums so I would like to apologize if this point had already been made.
   I'm a huge Mass Effect fan but one critical issue for me after completing my first playthrough of ME2 is that Paragon and Renegade points seem simplistic and uneccessary. Making even less sense than the Persuade skill from KOTOR, I don't understand why my character shouldn't be able to say something (red/dark blue renegade/paragon options) simply because I haven't earned enough points for performing actions which the devs labeled explicitly 'good' or 'bad.' The choices in the game are often deep into the gray area and many "Renegade" choices could easily be made by a good person, and vice versa. Not long into the game, I found myself making decisions I would never actually make were I Shepard in real life, but needed the Paragon points to avoid losing out on content or rewards.
   The decisions you make in the game should certainly have their appropriate effects on the storyline and characters, however they shouldn't be defined as good or bad. Perhaps you played the entire game as a selfish and merciless individual, and at the end reach some sort of epiphany and decide to make a "good" choice. The choices you make should define your character but not force future decisions you must make. Because I felt Garrus deserved revenge on the man who basically murdered his entire squad, I missed out on Paragon points which would have allowed me to end the conflict between Jack and Miranda. Situations like this really made the game less enjoyable.
   There's no real option to play in the middle unless you are willing to miss out on certain conversational options which to me is unfair. Play completey Renegade and half the time you're a total dick and for the rest of the time just someone who believes in justice and taking care of business. Play completely Paragon and you can make some good rational decisions, while frequenty your are simply a weak pansy who would let their family's killer off the hook after a stern talking to.

Also, if anyone knows a save game editor that allows changing paragon and renegade points so I can max out at the beginning of my next playthrough that would be awesome.

I completely agree. 
I was going to make a topic about this but you beat me too it. I think paragon and renegade should go, and just leave your choices with consequences. I think this would make it so much better.

 My problem is some choices that are renegade seem like good choice, and some that are paragon seem bad. I agree more with the paragon renegade in ME1, but not 2, Maybe they did this on purpose.
The devs chose whats good and bad, however that doesnt actually make those choices actually "good" or "bad" (So what if I tell grunt to use his energy against the collectors, how is that bad? They are the bad guys...right?). Some of the choices are things people may not agree with, and makes it harder for those who are trying to go a certain path (paragon/renegade). I too found myself doing things I didnt want to get paragon points, and sometimes I really didnt agree.. Even worse, sometimes I would get renegade for some strange reason, when I didnt do anything to get it.

Now I am playing the game and thinking much less about paragone and renegade, and doing what I want. Its more enjoyable this way. I think they did better with the choices in ME, but still, I think paragone and renegade should go.

Also, I think in the conversations, you should have to work for you charm and intimidate, perhaps they should make you hav to find it in the conversation, or something. Because when it comes, its like an easy way out.

Modifié par Kali-yuga, 12 mars 2010 - 03:47 .

[mispelinsuks]

This was one of my issues with the game as well. I like to play a character thats a good guy to his friends and allies but ruthless to his enemies . And in ME you can't, I want my decisions to shape the game not '' oh crap I haven't been enough of a jackass this game to punch this guy that I think deserves it''. I want to be able to play in that gray area not just a saint or sinner but a more real character.

[mispelinsuks]

Segameister wrote...

Aeclypso wrote...

Alternatives to your point: Keep the Paragon/Renegade points for Mass Effect 3, but do not allow them to influence your decisions i.e. a full Paragon Bar with a depleted Renegade Bar will still enable Renegade decisions... Yes?

I think having specific renegade / paragon conversation options (mmm... paragade!) greyed out depending on your status makes the points from discussions choices VERY relevant.  Allowing them to be accessable at any time would be what makes them irrelevant.

I say keep them in - it's a guage of who you are - good / bad...

Thats the problem with the game one extreme or the other. Just because my characters usually a bit of a hard ass doesn't mean he can't have a softer side when it comes down to some issues . Being 100% good or bad is unrealistic just like in real life for most people . Everyone has a little of both, it just takes certain situations to bring them out.

[HypesterHypester]

I really hate that people who play in the middle portray ME2 as requiring you be 100% good or bad... it's really more like 75% good or bad to max out a meter, there's nothing even remotely unrealistic about such a character.



On the other hand, people who are ruthless in the street are usually ruthless at home, in real life. Perhaps it's the middle-of-the-road greys, as opposed to the light grays or dark grays that are most unrealistic.

[hangmans tree]

I'm at a stage when all ppl (organic) are recruited and loyalty missions are done. Amost next to none N7 missions completed - will do them now, before going for the IFF...and I'm 100% Paragon and 25-30% Renegade.

To tell you the truth I let pass quite a few renegade options (being 100% P already), so the score might even be higher on R.

If I was to take the R interrupts from the start of the game the score would be higher still; estimated ratio would be something like 100%P / 75%R.



Two things let you quickly accumulate the P/R points: passive ablility maxed out (multiplying P/R points) and Death Mask item. All in all you can be both worlds not missing much of the choices from the opposite scale of morality.



Still,I might be wrong.



What was inconsistent imo was the lack of both interrupts in one sequence. It was either P or R - so you could hunt for both. I think it should be P AND R, one excluding the other. With exceptions of course.