132 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

Sledge454 wrote...


Even NASA space probes have the (albeit limited) ability to change course in mid flight and the main source of momentum is a chemical rocket impulse after leaving Earth's gravity well.

So if us mere humans can think of it, I don't see how it's a "hand wave".  It's the way I'd do it.  Better than spending all that time travelling to the outer rim and beyond.
I'm guessing you don't work for NASA or ESA.  All the better for the rest of us

NASA probes don't weigh 7.11 billion tons, nor do they stop on their own once they pass just outside our solar system. Your analogy falls flat on its face.

Modifié par marshalleck, 03 mars 2010 - 11:47 .

[Sledge454]

NASA doesn't have the ability to create a fictional "mass effect field". Nice try though. 9 out of 10 for effort.

Modifié par Sledge454, 03 mars 2010 - 11:46 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Koyasha wrote...

This is also the only logical way they can get back into the galaxy. It stands to reason that the reason they needed the Citadel relay is because they didn't have any other way to travel that distance quickly. It therefore stands to reason that under their own power, they could not possibly reach the galaxy within a human lifetime - even if they have some way to ignore the drive charge problem that all known ships have (need to discharge into a magnetic field/planet).

Yep, that adds to the evidence that the Citadel is a special type of relay, without needing another end in Dark Space.  If there was another relay out there that could propel them into the Galaxy, they could just point it back at a different relay, instead of the Citadel (heck, the relay next to the Citadel if they wanted to get there) and come through that way.

In short, it makes no logical sense for why there would be a relay in Dark Space, otherwise they'd be in the Galaxy by now.

[applehug]

Reapers have tens of thousands of years to get into dark space.

[Daeion]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Daeion wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I personally suspect that the size of the Citadel gives a clue. It's the only Mass Relay that the Reapers built that is able to operate without a matching relay at the other end. All we know to date is that all lesser relays need a matching end. It cannot be assumed though that a Relay the size of sophistication of the Citadel needs to operate under such a restriction.

And your proof that there isn't another relay in Dark Space?  Why can't it be assumed that the citadel relay needs to operate with the same restrictions as the same technology it's based off of.

Why assume that it has to work the same?  The Reapers built it.  It's nothing at all like any of the other relays, and it's their "secret weapon" for getting back into the Galaxy from dark space.  Having a relay at the other end just increases the risk that someone could figure out how to activate the Citadel and catch the reapers out when they're hibernating, and that would be the last thing that they would want.  Having the Citadel be the sole device means that without a matching set of co-ordinates for where the fleet is, there's pretty much zero chance that they'll be caught with their pants down.  At best, the people who discover what the Citadel is will just marvel at the ability to go anywhere it points and still be caught by surprise when the Citadel auto-activates and brings the fleet through.

Yes the citadel relay is unique asfar as we know, but that doesn't mean that isn't still bound to the same laws that the other relays are bound to.  So if there isn't another relay in dark space, how exactly do the reapers get back from dark space?  Are you trying to tell me that the citadel relay just pulls them from dark space or what?

[marshalleck]

Sledge454 wrote...

NASA doesn't have the ability to create a fictional "mass effect field". Nice try though. 9 out of 10 for effort.

You just made another hand-wave. "A wizard did it" but replace wizard with 'mass effect field.'

[Daeion]

Koyasha wrote...

Not all mass relays need a connecting end at the other side. The major relays that let you jump a long distance do, but there are smaller relays that are omnidirectional and can't throw you as far as the large ones. Presumably, the Reapers got out there by assembling a series of 'non-paired' relays.

Source please?

[Sledge454]

marshalleck wrote...

Sledge454 wrote...

NASA doesn't have the ability to create a fictional "mass effect field". Nice try though. 9 out of 10 for effort.

You just made another hand-wave. "A wizard did it" but replace wizard with 'mass effect field.'

All I'm doing is taking what is possible now and applying the capability of ME's tech to it (chemical rockets to ME fields, greater energy storage, and larger sizes).  If you can't figure that out, I can't help you.

Modifié par Sledge454, 03 mars 2010 - 11:52 .

[Daeion]

Sledge454 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Think outside the box? You mean hand-wave a contrived solution to a problem that doesn't even exist in the first place?

Even NASA space probes have the (albeit limited) ability to change course in mid flight and the main source of momentum is a chemical rocket impulse after leaving Earth's gravity well.

So if us mere humans can think of it, I don't see how it's a "hand wave".  It's the way I'd do it.  Better than spending all that time travelling to the outer rim and beyond.

marshalleck wrote...
You're right, I'm not doing that. For good reason. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

NASA isn't dealing with the distances that the reapers presumably are.

I'm guessing you don't work for NASA or ESA.  All the better for the rest of us

NASA isn't dealing with the distances the reapers have to.

Modifié par Daeion, 03 mars 2010 - 11:53 .

[Annihilator27]

Im sure in Mass Effect 3 they'll tie up the losse ends.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Daeion wrote...

Yes the citadel relay is unique asfar as we know, but that doesn't mean that isn't still bound to the same laws that the other relays are bound to.  So if there isn't another relay in dark space, how exactly do the reapers get back from dark space?  Are you trying to tell me that the citadel relay just pulls them from dark space or what?

See post above.  If they had a mass relay out there with them, they'd have used it and be here by now.

Mass Relays create a corridor of mass-free space, according to the Codex.  The range of that corridor would have a limit.  Nothing says that the corridor needs to be one way.  Citadel relay creates the corridor, and the Reapers enter into it from their end.

The two-end relays just give a stable end-point for the corridors, rather than blasting it through a planet or star beyond the intended end-point to devastating effect.  Being in Darkspace, that is not such an issue, the corridor isn't going to impact a planet/star.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 03 mars 2010 - 11:53 .

[marshalleck]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Yep, that adds to the evidence that the Citadel is a special type of relay, without needing another end in Dark Space.  If there was another relay out there that could propel them into the Galaxy, they could just point it back at a different relay, instead of the Citadel (heck, the relay next to the Citadel if they wanted to get there) and come through that way.

In short, it makes no logical sense for why there would be a relay in Dark Space, otherwise they'd be in the Galaxy by now.

They need to activate the Citadel relay because it has to catch the Reapers relaying in from the dark space relay, just like every other relay in the galaxy works. The Citadel-dark space link is only unique in the vast distance it covers.

If they could make one-way relays, ME1 never would have happened at all. There'd be no need to activate the Citadel relay. They would have just relayed into the galaxy from a one-way relay in dark space and annihilated everything, then used the Citadel to relay back out.

In other words, proposing a 'one-way relay" solution creates logical problems for the story.

[Daeion]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

This is also the only logical way they can get back into the galaxy. It stands to reason that the reason they needed the Citadel relay is because they didn't have any other way to travel that distance quickly. It therefore stands to reason that under their own power, they could not possibly reach the galaxy within a human lifetime - even if they have some way to ignore the drive charge problem that all known ships have (need to discharge into a magnetic field/planet).

Yep, that adds to the evidence that the Citadel is a special type of relay, without needing another end in Dark Space.  If there was another relay out there that could propel them into the Galaxy, they could just point it back at a different relay, instead of the Citadel (heck, the relay next to the Citadel if they wanted to get there) and come through that way.

In short, it makes no logical sense for why there would be a relay in Dark Space, otherwise they'd be in the Galaxy by now.

How did that add evidence to your idea that there isn't a relay out in dark space?  If anything, what they said adds evidence to the idea that there would be one out in dark space for the quick travel.

[Legbiter]

They show up at the Citadel after the keepers open the way, harvest everything in sight for a few centuries, then retreat back the way they came. And slumber in dark space until it's time to feast again.

[Daeion]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Yes the citadel relay is unique asfar as we know, but that doesn't mean that isn't still bound to the same laws that the other relays are bound to.  So if there isn't another relay in dark space, how exactly do the reapers get back from dark space?  Are you trying to tell me that the citadel relay just pulls them from dark space or what?

See post above.  If they had a mass relay out there with them, they'd have used it and be here by now.

Mass Relays create a corridor of mass-free space, according to the Codex.  The range of that corridor would have a limit.  Nothing says that the corridor needs to be one way.  Citadel relay creates the corridor, and the Reapers enter into it from their end.

The two-end relays just give a stable end-point for the corridors, rather than blasting it through a planet or star beyond the intended end-point to devastating effect.  Being in Darkspace, that is not such an issue, the corridor isn't going to impact a planet/star.

You don't know how long it takes to reprogram a relay or if you can even reprogram it to jump you to a relay that is already paired with a unit.  If we go with your theroy about the corridor there's two issues that I see, #1 how do the reapers get into if they don't have a relay to get them into it, and #2, the citadel isn't on the edge of the galaxy, it's surrounded by planets, stars, nebulas, and other galactic bodies.

[Sledge454]

There's another important point to the single vs double relay question. Why do the Keepers have to fire it up? Why can't the Reapers activate it from their intergalactic parking lot beyond the rim?  Vigil said the Reapers send a signal which gets the Keepers to open the Citadel relay.

Modifié par Sledge454, 03 mars 2010 - 11:58 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Daeion wrote...


How did that add evidence to your idea that there isn't a relay out in dark space?  If anything, what they said adds evidence to the idea that there would be one out in dark space for the quick travel.

Then they would have already used said relay to get back by now?  Good enough?

Or is this race of super-intelligent machines so utterly stupid that they didn't think to link the relay at their end to some relay within the galaxy to stop at.  I mean, by the story, we have a driving relay.  The relay at the other end just provides a stable end point for the corridor, and (to my logic at least) would not necessarily have to be citadel sized.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 04 mars 2010 - 12:03 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Daeion wrote...


You don't know how long it takes to reprogram a relay or if you can even reprogram it to jump you to a relay that is already paired with a unit.  If we go with your theroy about the corridor there's two issues that I see, #1 how do the reapers get into if they don't have a relay to get them into it, and #2, the citadel isn't on the edge of the galaxy, it's surrounded by planets, stars, nebulas, and other galactic bodies.

So, by your reasoning, it's more logical to assume that a super-intelligent species that built and controls the relay network, cannot then control the relay network in an emegency to jump to alternate locations?

The Reaper have massive eezo cores.  So do the Mass Relays.  Who's to say that a Reaper can't initiate entry into an established mass-effect corridor by themselves?  If you think to Bablyon 5, they had hyperspace gates that most ships used, but some ship could still enter hyperspace by themselves.  The scenario is a bit different, but the point is that we really don't know what the Reapers are capable of.

Yes, the citadel isn't on the edge of the galaxy, but nor are the relays that hop half-way across the galaxy.  It's a matter of picking a clear line of sight path from end to end, or did that one skip past your logic too?

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 04 mars 2010 - 12:03 .

[Daeion]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Daeion wrote...


How did that add evidence to your idea that there isn't a relay out in dark space?  If anything, what they said adds evidence to the idea that there would be one out in dark space for the quick travel.

Could they would have already used said relay to get back by now?  Good enough?

Or is this race of super-intelligent machines so utterly stupid that they didn't think to link the relay at their end to some relay within the galaxy to stop at.  I mean, by the story, we have a driving relay.  The relay at the other end just provides a stable end point for the corridor, and (to my logic at least) would not necessarily have to be citadel sized.

Not exactly sure what you said in the first line, were you trying to say if there was a relay in Dark Space they would have used it and been back already?  How about because we stopped them from activating the citadel relay so they don't have a point to jump into?

As for your 2nd part about a paired relay, you mean a relay like the citadel?

[Canez fan 1988]

Sledge454 wrote...

There's another important point to the single vs double relay question. Why do the Keepers have to fire it up? Why can't the Reapers activate it from their intergalactic parking lot beyond the rim?  Vigil said the Reapers send a signal which gets the Keepers to open the Citadel relay.

I really can't believe this is being debated.

The Keepers were created to maintain the Citadel as well as perform the necessary operating functions of the station. This way, any race that stumbled upon and inhabited the Citadel would be ignorant to it's true purpose. Yes, the Reapers could access the Citadel themselves, but it is likely that the true purpose of the Citadel would have been exposed long ago and the Reapers would be caught off guard in dark space. This was their design, and the only way this can be altered I imagine is if the Reapers could gain direct access to the Citadel, something they tried to do in ME1 and failed at.

Secondly, the Citadel needs to be activated so that Reapers can return, and when they leave they close the portal behind them. This likely means that this route can only be turned on at the Citadel, and shut off at the dark space relay. The Reapers may not be able to reverse this design.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

I edited my post to make sense. Didn't proof check it first before posting.



As for the rest of it, I've made my points clear enough. It's my theory. To me it's extremely obvious the points that I'm driving at, and I won't continue to labor the point. Either you accept that it's plausible with the ME canon or you can refuse to believe that it would work, and if you don't accept it, then we shall just have to respectfully agree to disagree and drop pointless further back and forth shots.

[marshalleck]

Just gonna toss this out there and let the rest of you toy with it. A signature of weak writing is violating the fundamental rules of the world you've created in order for a plot point to make sense.

Could the Reapers magically rewrite all the rules as we know them about mass relays? Sure, why not, they are a hyper-intelligent race of immortal machines that have existed for millions of years. Would it be a stupid and cheap twist? Absolutely.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 12:09 .

[Sledge454]

ME1 is the story of the Reapers losing their car keys.  And there's no AAA in space.

[Mister_Tez]

Koyasha wrote...

Not all mass relays need a connecting
end at the other side. The major relays that let you jump a long
distance do, but there are smaller relays that are omnidirectional and
can't throw you as far as the large ones. Presumably, the Reapers got
out there by assembling a series of 'non-paired' relays.

Primary relays are in pairs, & cover very long distances. You can only go from one end of the pair to the other end.

Secondary relays are omnidirectional, & do not cover distances as long as primary relays cover. But they still need to connect to another relay at the other end - you just have a choice of secondary relay destinations, instead of being limited to only one destination like with a primary relay.

http://masseffect.wi...iki/Mass_relays

"There are two kinds of mass relay, primary and secondary. Primary
relays can send a ship hundreds of light years but only link to one
other relay, its 'partner'. Secondary relays can link to any other
relay over shorter distances."

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...


See post above.  If they had a mass relay out there with them, they'd have used it and be here by now.

Mass Relays create a corridor of mass-free space, according to the Codex.  The range of that corridor would have a limit.  Nothing says that the corridor needs to be one way.  Citadel relay creates the corridor, and the Reapers enter into it from their end.

The two-end relays just give a stable end-point for the corridors, rather than blasting it through a planet or star beyond the intended end-point to devastating effect.  Being in Darkspace, that is not such an issue, the corridor isn't going to impact a planet/star.

That doesn't fit with what we have been told about relays though: Whether primary or secondary, you still always go from one relay to another relay.

Reason to have not used the dark space relay if they had one? It is a primary relay (or super primary relay given the vast distance) , with its partner being the Citadel relay... With the Citadel relay inactive, they cannot use the darkspace relay. The two are linked, like all other primary relays. And like all other primary relays, you cannot choose from multiple destination relays, only the partner relay can be travelled to.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

The only additional point I will add is that we only know as much about Mass Relay technology as the Reapers have already revealed. It is not a weak writing effort to introduce new twists to a technology that isn't properly understood by those using it. No one in the current galaxy timeline has even replicated Mass Relay technology (aside from the one-off Prothean Conduit). Would it not then be part of the Reaper's master plan to put the limited relays there, in place, to make it so convenient that races simply don't bother with exploring the technology to a dangerous level to the Reapers? The last thing that the Reapers would want is for some race to discover that you can make a single-ended relay and thereby jump fleets about the galaxy to combat the Reaper invasion.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 04 mars 2010 - 12:18 .