132 réponses à ce sujet

[Strange Aeons]

If they need a destination relay to get back into the galaxy in a timely manner, then what's the point of the big, ominous shot of the reapers at the end of ME2, as if an attack is imminent?



Either they can return without a relay (which means that everything we did in the last two games was ultimately pointless) or there's another backup relay somewhere (which means that everything we did in the last two games was ultimately pointless) or they're stuck where they are without help from inside the galaxy (which seems like a pretty bad plan, and means that we'll have to deal with yet another of their agents somewhere in the galaxy attempting to access the citadel).

[marshalleck]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

The only additional point I
will add is that we only know as much about Mass Relay technology as the
Reapers have already revealed. It is not a weak writing effort to
introduce new twists to a technology that isn't properly understood by
those using it. No one in the current galaxy timeline has even
replicated Mass Relay technology (aside from the one-off Prothean
Conduit). Would it not then be part of the Reaper's master plan to put
the limited relays there, in place, to make it so convenient that races
simply don't bother with exploring the technology to a dangerous level
to the Reapers? The last thing that the Reapers would want is for some
race to discover that you can make a single-ended relay and thereby jump
fleets about the galaxy to combat the Reaper invasion.

You're not talking about masking the inner workings of the relays. You're talking about violating everything established in ME1.

We know that none of what you're suggesting is possible because if it were, the Reapers would have had the galaxy in checkmate already.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 12:20 .

[Daeion]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Daeion wrote...


You don't know how long it takes to reprogram a relay or if you can even reprogram it to jump you to a relay that is already paired with a unit.  If we go with your theroy about the corridor there's two issues that I see, #1 how do the reapers get into if they don't have a relay to get them into it, and #2, the citadel isn't on the edge of the galaxy, it's surrounded by planets, stars, nebulas, and other galactic bodies.

So, by your reasoning, it's more logical to assume that a super-intelligent species that built and controls the relay network, cannot the control the relay network in an emegency to jump to alternate locations?

The Reaper have massive eezo cores.  So do the Mass Relays.  Who's to say that a Reaper can't initiate entry into an established mass-effect corridor by themselves?  If you think to Bablyon 5, they had hyperspace gates that most ships used, but some ship could still enter hyperspace by themselves.  The scenario is a bit different, but the point is that we really don't know what the Reapers are capable of.

Yes, the citadel isn't on the edge of the galaxy, but nor are the relays that hop half-way across the galaxy.  It's a matter of picking a clear line of sight path from end to end, or did that one skip past your logic too?

My theory is that they originally built the relay system that we currently use as an easy way to stear development of species.  At some point after an early reaping and while hybernating they most have been stumbled upon by some species and at this point decided it was better to hybernate in dark space.  So they constructed the citadel to continue to be able to stear the development of species while they weren't hybernating and then construced a relay in dark space where they hybernate.  Nww by my math, the reaping cycle has repeated at least 740 times with no issues.  This to me says that by now the reapers are pretty damn confident in themselves and probably didn't develop a back plan for not being able to activate the citadel relay.

Hyperspace is the equivilant of FTL, both of which are totaly different then relay travel.  Relays are more like the stargates from stargate.

You do know that galactic bodies are always in motion, so there's not really going to be a clear path.  Also, no single relay throws you across the galaxy, if you look at the map you'll notice you hit multiple relays before coming to your final destination.

Modifié par Daeion, 04 mars 2010 - 12:32 .

[TrueHD]

I just realized something.



What the hell is dark space?

[TheUnusualSuspect]

marshalleck wrote...

You're not talking about masking the inner workings of the relays. You're talking about violating everything established in ME1.

We know that none of what you're suggesting is possible because if it were, the Reapers would have had the galaxy in checkmate already.

It's only violating present understanding of Mass Relays.  I simply cannot fathom how that point isn't clear enough.  In science, we don't know everything about the Universe.  We study stuff, have theories, which are then proved wrong, and this happens extremely often.

Also, how would the Reapers have the Galaxy in a checkmate by now if the CItadel is de-activated?  That makes no sense whatsoever.

[Sledge454]

TrueHD wrote...

I just realized something.

What the hell is dark space?

Space between galaxies.  There should be nothing out there.  Except a fleet of genocidal AIs.

[Daeion]

Strange Aeons wrote...

If they need a destination relay to get back into the galaxy in a timely manner, then what's the point of the big, ominous shot of the reapers at the end of ME2, as if an attack is imminent?

Either they can return without a relay (which means that everything we did in the last two games was ultimately pointless) or there's another backup relay somewhere (which means that everything we did in the last two games was ultimately pointless) or they're stuck where they are without help from inside the galaxy (which seems like a pretty bad plan, and means that we'll have to deal with yet another of their agents somewhere in the galaxy attempting to access the citadel).

There's two theories to that, one is that you are seeing the fleet emerge from FTL on the edge of the galaxy, the other is that you are seeing them wake up from hybernation.

[BenwaSmash]

Well, what really happened is that every 10,000 years or so, the reaper return to reap what they sowed and pay for the light bill - because we ruined their return in ME1, they were unable to pay the bill and the electric company turned off the juice so it became dark space....

The way I understood the mechanics was similar as stated - easy tech was left to direct us peons to the right level and along the correct path, Sovereign stayed behind to moniter process and reactivate the backdoor gate - the citadel - but we foiled that, the relay in ME2 was just to the center using the collectors as a backup to the sovereign plan - done long distance (hence the mental control rather than the actual ship/reaver and since their 2 backups have failed, they are warming up their drives and heading towards the galaxies of sustenance - probably involving jumps using black holes/brown dwarfs and unstable systems that cause damage - and the reaapers don't like non sure things so that will be a last ditch effort (therefore adding risk and damage into the equation and a way for the peon fleets to damage, harm and possibly stop the reaper fleet.) The attempt to build a reaper long distance was to try to replace sovereign with another reaper to reopen the gate

[Hader102]

Don't know if this has been posted yet...









The Reapers enter the galaxy through the Citadel, and also depart through it. Hope this clarifies some things. I have no time to speculate now. But Listen to Vigil, people...he is there for a reason

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Daeion wrote...

You do know that galactic bodies are always in motion, so there's not really going to be a clear path.  Also, no single relay throws you across the galaxy, if you look at the map you'll notice you hit multiple relays before coming to your final destination.

I'm well aware of that.  The point is that this does not invalidate the original supposition.  The reaper fleet appears to be situated isometically "above" the galaxy too.  Being significantly above or below the plane of the galactic disc orientation is going to dramatically reduce the chance of line-of-sight obstructions between the Citadel and darkspace.

Also, it's only every 50,000 years.  Stars move a fair way in that time, but fairly predictably.  Space is pretty damn big though, so odds of obstruction are small, but even so, being as advanced as they are, every cycle it would be logical that they would move things around such that clear paths are guaranteed to be valid for some period of time until the next reaping/maintenance cycle occurs.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 04 mars 2010 - 01:10 .

[inversevideo]

AFAIK...

1) The Citadel was meant to be a 'trap'. The reapers constructed the citadel with the knowledge that those that found it, would setup their seat of government there. So when the Reapers were ready to attack, they could pour through the giant Citiadel relay and take out the seat of government of whatever species is currently set up there.

2) Any Mass Relay can be used by the Reapers, they built them. They could, and probably did appear out of all of them, simultaneously, when they attacked the Protheans, with the largest number of them hitting the Citiadel. Then they shut them down, for use by anyone but Reapers, crippling the ability of the Protheans to shuttle personnel and supplies across the Prothean empire.

3) I suspect the Reapers have a Mass Relay in 'dark space' and they can use it to get to any relay in the network they built.

4) As to how they got to Dark Space, before they established a relay there, all ships, that use mass effect fields, can initiate a mass effect jump. The jump takes fuel, for the drive, and the ship is limited to jumps within a cluster; which is still a considerable distance. Ships the size of Sovereign, probably have more range, and the reapers supposedly created the mass relays, so they are presumably more efficient at getting their ship/selves to make farther mass effect jumps.
They also had plenty of time to jump, build a relay, and jump again. And there is no real evidence that there needs to be a connecting relay, on the other side. The galaxy's inhabitants depend on there being connected relays to make use the relay system. And the reapers set it up to make it easy for civilizations to develop using the relays and becoming dependent on relay technology. . But the relay builders could have originally designeda mass relay to open a wormhole to a far region of space, send a worker craft through, the wormhole, and have that construct a relay at the other end, to ensure stability /consistency of travel (i.e construct a relay at the destination of the jump, to facilitate travel back to the orgin point).  

Modifié par inversevideo, 04 mars 2010 - 01:05 .

[Mister_Tez]

inversevideo wrote...

AFAIK...

1) The Citadel was meant to be a 'trap'. The reapers constructed the citadel with the knowledge that those that found it, would setup their seat of government there. So when the Reapers were ready to attack, they could pour through the giant Citiadel relay and take out the seat of government of whatever species is currently set up there.

2) Any Mass Relay can be used by the Reapers, they built them. They could, and probably did appear out of all of them, simultaneously, when they attacked the Protheans, with the largest number of them hitting the Citiadel. Then they shut them down, for use by anyone but Reapers, crippling the ability of the Protheans to shuttle personnel and supplies across the Prothean empire.

3) I suspect the Reapers have a Mass Relay in 'dark space' and they can use it to get to any relay in the network they built.

4) As to how they got to Dark Space, before they established a relay there, all ships, that use mass effect fields, can initiate a mass effect jump. The jump takes fuel, for the drive, and the ship is limited to jumps within a cluster; which is still a considerable distance. Ships the size of Sovereign, probably have more range, and the reapers supposedly created the mass relays, so they are presumably more efficient at getting their ship/selves to make farther mass effect jumps.
They also had plenty of time to jump, build a relay, and jump again. And there is no real evidence that there needs to be a connecting relay, on the other side. The galaxy's inhabitants depend on there being connected relays to make use the relay system. And the reapers set it up to make it easy for civilizations to develop using the relays and becoming dependent on relay technology. . But the relay builders could have originally designeda mass relay to open a wormhole to a far region of space, send a worker craft through, the wormhole, and have that construct a relay at the other end, to ensure stability /consistency of travel (i.e construct a relay at the destination of the jump, to facilitate travel back to the orgin point).  

1) Yes.

2) & 3) Then why have they not invaded yet? When they first realised, hundreds of years ago or more (we know they messed with the rachni, at least, so the current harvest was meant to be a fair while back), that the signal to get the Keepers to activate the super-relay didn't work anymore, why did they not pour through the other relays? Why did Sovereign go around looking for allies instead, & get Saren & the Heretics on-side for the ME1 story, when the Reaper Fleet could simply suddenly appear out of all the other relays?

4) I don't believe they're called jumps. It's just "FTL".

[marshalleck]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

It's only violating present understanding of Mass Relays.  I simply cannot fathom how that point isn't clear enough.  In science, we don't know everything about the Universe.  We study stuff, have theories, which are then proved wrong, and this happens extremely often.

The "present understanding" of relays is how they work. The Protheans recreated a relay, it's called the Conduit and the entire first Mass Effect game was about finding it. It was point-to-point transit but since the research was only barely complete, it could only work from Ilos to the Citadel and not back.

Also, how would the Reapers have the Galaxy in a checkmate by now if the CItadel is de-activated?  That makes no sense whatsoever.

You're asking the wrong question. If the Reapers don't need point-to-point transit, why do they need the Citadel at all for getting in and out of the galaxy? The Citadel wouldn't have to be a relay in this scenario. They'd just plop their super-relay anywhere in the galaxy since they don't have to be in proximity of it to be transported, and in the Citadel's place they'd just leave a big space station.

There'd be no need for Sovereign to fuss about with the rachni or the geth. There'd be no need for Saren, nor any need for finding the Conduit. There'd be no reason for Mass Effect to exist at all if you undermine the foundation of the story. Fundamentally altering how the relays work causes the entire narrative to unravel in a series of "if that's true, then why didn't they...?" questions.

You're certainly entitled to come up with any theories you want, but if you're really expecting the story to turn out like you're sugesting here I think you're going to be disappointed.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 01:44 .

[ObserverStatus]

They devoured a galaxy and made their own dark space.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

marshalleck wrote...

The "present understanding" of non-citadel relays is how they work. The Protheans recreated a relay, it's called the Conduit and the entire first Mass Effect game was about finding it. It was point-to-point transit but since the research was only barely complete, it could only work from Ilos to the Citadel and not back.

Fixed your quote for you.  I wasn't suggesting that the existing point-to-point relays could operate single-ended.  I think you've confused my statements with what someone else said earlier in this thread.

marshalleck wrote...
You're asking the wrong question. If the Reapers don't need point-to-point transit, why do they need the Citadel at all for getting in and out of the galaxy?

You sure you're not just trolling and saying random stuff?

I never said that Reapers didn't need point to point relays.  I said was that they may be able to enter an active mass-effect corridor, such as one generated by an activated citadel, without needing a mass-relay to initiate corridor entry.  They are clearly not able to initiate a corridor by themselves, we know that.  That's bleeding obvious, so I have absolutely no idea of what you're suggesting that I stated as such, when I never did.

As for the rest of it, we shall see, depending on if it ever does get explained.

[marshalleck]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I never said that Reapers didn't need point to point relays.  I said was that they may be able to enter an active mass-effect corridor, such as one generated by an activated citadel, without needing a mass-relay to initiate corridor entry.  They are clearly not able to initiate a corridor by themselves, we know that.  That's bleeding obvious, so I have absolutely no idea of what you're suggesting that I stated as such, when I never did.

As for the rest of it, we shall see, depending on if it ever does get explained.

A corridor in this context is defined by two points: the entry at one end and an exit at the other. If you take one of those away, you no longer have a corridor. If relays no longer generate corridors between two points, you've fundamentally (and arbitrarily) redefined how relays work. The reason for doing this would be to facilitate a plot point, to allow it to make sense. It's weak writing.

And before you whine about the Citadel being magically different from the rest of the relays, that's just another path to the same end: contrived twist supported by nothing in particular in the game world and which stinks of deus ex.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 04:20 .

[TheLostGenius]

 They flew there.

[Gill Kaiser]

If the Reapers have mass effect drives that don't require periodic static discharge, then it's perfectly plausible that they could have just simply flown the thing out into Dark Space.

Alternatively, if the Reapers have the technology to create unstable wormholes, which I suspect we'll see first-hand in ME3, then they could have made one of those as a one-off in order to get the relay out there.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

marshalleck wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I never said that Reapers didn't need point to point relays.  I said was that they may be able to enter an active mass-effect corridor, such as one generated by an activated citadel, without needing a mass-relay to initiate corridor entry.  They are clearly not able to initiate a corridor by themselves, we know that.  That's bleeding obvious, so I have absolutely no idea of what you're suggesting that I stated as such, when I never did.

As for the rest of it, we shall see, depending on if it ever does get explained.

A corridor in this context is defined by two points: the entry at one end and an exit at the other. If you take one of those away, you no longer have a corridor. If relays no longer generate corridors between two points, you've fundamentally (and arbitrarily) redefined how relays work. The reason for doing this would be to facilitate a plot point, to allow it to make sense. It's weak writing.

And before you whine about the Citadel being magically different from the rest of the relays, that's just another path to the same end: contrived twist supported by nothing in particular in the game world and which stinks of deus ex.

Whine?  Who's whining?  Totally inappropriate ad-hominem attack there, and poor form.

Let's explain it this way then, shall we?

A mass-relay projects a tunnel/corridor.  Bigger relays project further, which is why we have primary and secondary relays.  If we accept that, then we we must accept that the corridor has a limited range and end-point, after which the mass-effect field collapses.  The relay at the other end just terminates the corridor in a clean fashion.  If it were not there, the corridor would just continue until it reached the range of the relay and the corridor effect collapses, depositing the vessel into normal space.  This is why we have a relay at the other end, to cleanly define the end point, so we don't overshoot where we want to end up.

That does not apply to dead space.  The reaper fleet would just be deposited at the range limit of the citadel's corridor.  If they wanted to get into it again, they would enter the corridor at the dark space end.  Sure, it's not clean and neat like having a relay there, but it beats having a relay there and getting discovered while you're hibernating.

When they want to get back to the Citadel, the Citadel fires up the corridor at some location as close as possible to the Reaper fleet, who would simply travel that short distance to get into it.  One would expect that they would know the path of the Citadel in the galaxy and choose an equidistance point (or arc) between the 50,000 year separated start/end points so that they don't have to travel that far when the time comes.

See, wholly consistent within how we know Mass Relays to work, no deus-ex involved.  It's just a specialised single-ended application of the Mass Relay effect that is a perfectly consistent use of the technology (by logical inference of paired relays only being needed to terminate corridors early), and iit works because they only care about distance into dark space, and not arriving at exactly near some specific planet/sun/whatever.

Clear now?

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 04 mars 2010 - 05:10 .

[marshalleck]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I never said that Reapers didn't need point to point relays.  I said was that they may be able to enter an active mass-effect corridor, such as one generated by an activated citadel, without needing a mass-relay to initiate corridor entry.  They are clearly not able to initiate a corridor by themselves, we know that.  That's bleeding obvious, so I have absolutely no idea of what you're suggesting that I stated as such, when I never did.

As for the rest of it, we shall see, depending on if it ever does get explained.

A corridor in this context is defined by two points: the entry at one end and an exit at the other. If you take one of those away, you no longer have a corridor. If relays no longer generate corridors between two points, you've fundamentally (and arbitrarily) redefined how relays work. The reason for doing this would be to facilitate a plot point, to allow it to make sense. It's weak writing.

And before you whine about the Citadel being magically different from the rest of the relays, that's just another path to the same end: contrived twist supported by nothing in particular in the game world and which stinks of deus ex.

Whine?  Who's whining?  Totally inappropriate ad-hominem attack there, and poor form.

Let's explain it this way then, shall we?

A mass-relay projects a tunnel/corridor.  Bigger relays project further, which is why we have primary and secondary relays.  If we accept that, the we we must accept that the corrider has a limited range and end-point, after which the mass-effect field collapses.  The relay at the other end just terminates the corrider in a clean fashion.  If it were not there, the corridor would just continue indefinitely until it exceeded the range of the relay.  This is why we have a relay at the other end, to cleanly define the end point, so we don't overshoot where we want to end up.

That does not apply to dead space.  The reaper fleet would just be deposited at the range limit of the citadel's corridor.  If they wanted to get into it again, they would enter the corridor at the dark space end.  Sure, it's not clean and neat like having a relay there, but it beats having a relay there and getting discovered while you're hibernating.

When they want to get back to the Citadel, the Citadel fires up the corridor at some location as close as possible to the Reaper fleet, who would simply travel that short distance to get into it.  One would expect that they would know the path of the Citadel in the galaxy and choose an equidistance point (or arc) between the 50,000 year separated start/end points so that they don't have to travel that far when the time comes.

See, wholly consistent within how we know Mass Relays to work, no deus-ex involved.  It's just a specialised single-ended application of the Mass Relay effect that is a perfectly consistent use of the technology (by inference of paired relays terminating corridors), and iit works because they only care about distance into dark space, and not arriving at exactly near some specific planet/sun/whatever.

Clear now?

The corridor doesn't open if no end point is defined. It's like trying to draw a triangle using only 2 points. I encourage you to read the various codex entries on mass relays, trans-relay military assaults, etc. etc.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 05:16 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

marshalleck wrote...

The corridor doesn't open if no end point is defined. It's like trying to draw a triangle with only 2 points given.

...and you know that how?  Please point me at an in-game definition that declares this as fact.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 04 mars 2010 - 05:12 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The corridor doesn't open if no end point is defined. It's like trying to draw a triangle with only 2 points given.

...and you know that how?  Please point me at an in-game definition that declares this as fact.

Actually, in the Mass Effect 2 codex, under Technology->Mass Effect Fields, it defines that a mass effect field can be used to alter the mass of a volume of space-time.  A mass-relay would just be creating a corridor from its start point, and the only reason for the other end at all would be to ensure that there's a fixed end-point.  You can enter the corridor at either end.  You may even be able to enter from the middle, but that is as-yet unknown.

So, within the game's own canon, a mass relay would be just create a tunnel of fixed volume that extended out to its peak range, that ships could enter and travel.  A big enough mass-relay (Citadel) can reach far out into Dark Space.

So, I put it to you that your argument that a single-relay going against the game canon is actually false, and that a single-ended mass relay effect is actually supported by the in-game canon.

Once again, the only reason for why there are pairs is to allow for a well-defined end-point to the corridor.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 04 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

They took a wrong turn by Virmire and kept going. By the time they noticed they were off track there were in dark space.
I don't know, the Reapers don't make much sense at all really, all I know is that they need to die.
And arguing about the properties of mass effect fields is as pointless as arguing about lyrium poisoning.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 04 mars 2010 - 05:27 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Well, as someone pointed out earlier, I was wrong about omnidirectional relays - they also need a destination relay to connect to, they're just not paired to a specific other relay, and can go to any within range. Therefore we have it shown that every relay needs to target another relay in order to function.

Logic suggests this has something to do with stopping safely. If a relay were to create such a corridor without a defined endpoint, it seems logical that anything traveling through it would be torn to shreds when it exits the range of the corridor due to an uncontrolled re-application of the normal laws of physics. If you have an object traveling at hundreds of millions of times light speed and suddenly re-apply its full mass...well, there's probably no way to tell what exactly would happen, but it's unlikely it would survive this situation.

Now, if they have a matching Citadel-sized relay out in dark space, the reason they can't just readjust it to shoot them at one of the smaller (primary or secondary) relays in the galaxy is simple: those relays aren't designed to receive from that size relay. Notice that secondary relays can link to any relay in their range, but a primary relay can only go to another primary relay. You need a relay with the same or greater size and power in order to safely bring you to a stop, essentially.

Modifié par Koyasha, 04 mars 2010 - 05:33 .

[marshalleck]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The corridor doesn't open if no end point is defined. It's like trying to draw a triangle with only 2 points given.

...and you know that how?  Please point me at an in-game definition that declares this as fact.

Actually, in the Mass Effect 2 codex, under Technology->Mass Effect Fields, it defines that a mass effect field can be used to alter the mass of a volume of space-time.  A mass-relay would just be creating a corridor from its start point, and the only reason for the other end at all would be to ensure that there's a fixed end-point.  You can enter the corridor at either end.  You may even be able to enter from the middle, but that is as-yet unknown.

So, within the game's own canon, a mass relay would be just create a tunnel of fixed volume that extended out to its peak range, that ships could enter and travel.  A big enough mass-relay (Citadel) can reach far out into Dark Space.

So, I put it to you that your argument that a single-relay going against the game canon is actually false, and that a single-ended mass relay effect is actually supported by the in-game canon.

Once again, the only reason for why there are pairs is to allow for a well-defined end-point to the corridor.

Mass relays don't work the same way a weapon or ship drive based on mass effect technology does. You're presenting the same idea as others who ask if relays could be used as weapons to hyper-accelerate projectiles. The answer is no, because two relays create the corridor of mass-free space between two points and transfer objects instantaneously. An object won't go flying out of the corridor and it can't enter the corridor from some point in between. If objects could interfere with the relay corridors there would be all kinds of collisions in transit, but there aren't. It's never explained particularly well why a ship entering a relay doesn't collide with a planet or asteroid, but keep in mind the relays used to be called "phase gates."

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 05:40 .