132 réponses à ce sujet

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Koyasha wrote...

Logic suggests this has something to do with stopping safely. If a relay were to create such a corridor without a defined endpoint, it seems logical that anything traveling through it would be torn to shreds when it exits the range of the corridor due to an uncontrolled re-application of the normal laws of physics. If you have an object traveling at hundreds of millions of times light speed and suddenly re-apply its full mass...well, there's probably no way to tell what exactly would happen, but it's unlikely it would survive this situation.

Seem to accelerate just fine, from whatever to a gazillion times the speed of light.  Yes, you may argue that it's the relay doing something, but it may not be either.  There's no argument to support either scenario.

The need for an end point, to me, is logical only in that you generally want to stop somewhere that's well defined.

Given that FTL travel is impossible and there's no maths to define it, it's probably a little bit late to start trying to apply physics in massless to mass based FTL deceleration.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

marshalleck wrote...

Mass relays don't work the same way a weapon or ship drive based on mass effect technology does. You're presenting the same idea as others who ask if relays could be used as weapons to hyper-accelerate projectiles. The answer is no, because two relays create the corridor of mass-free space between two points and transfer objects instantaneously. An object won't go flying out of the corridor and it can't enter the corridor from some point in between. If objects could interfere with the relay corridors there would be all kinds of collisions in transit, but there aren't. It's never explained particularly well why a ship entering a relay doesn't collide with a planet or asteroid, but keep in mind the relays used to be called "phase gates."

I will ask, once again, for proof of your points using in-game canon, as opposed to merely conjecture.  Right now, I've provided a valid proposal using in-game canon.  You have not, and are merely speculating.

[Mondo_]

cruise control

[marshalleck]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I will ask, once again, for proof of your points using in-game canon, as opposed to merely conjecture.  Right now, I've provided a valid proposal using in-game canon.  You have not, and are merely speculating.

Read the codex.

Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often
from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed
one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary
relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few
hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay
can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.

Again, if you wish to get around this by saying the Citadel is extra-special magic, you're just arbitrarily redefining how this technology functions. In fact, saying the Citadel doesn't function in the same way would mean that technically it's not a mass relay, it's something else.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 05:59 .

[Radwar]

Daeion wrote...

Dark space isn't another dimension or anything, it's simply the area between galaxies where there are no stars.  For all we know their 2nd relay could simply be 1 light year into dark space.

And your proof of that?

Frankly there hasn't been any confirmation of where darkspace is. Personally it could be another dimension. The Reaper's are alot more advanced technologically than any other species, so it's possible they found a way of going from one dimension to the other where they could hibernate without the risk of being discovered by other advanced races.

[marshalleck]

Radwar wrote...

And your proof of that?

I believe Vigil defines dark space as the empty space between galaxies.

[McBeath]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

Logic suggests this has something to do with stopping safely. If a relay were to create such a corridor without a defined endpoint, it seems logical that anything traveling through it would be torn to shreds when it exits the range of the corridor due to an uncontrolled re-application of the normal laws of physics. If you have an object traveling at hundreds of millions of times light speed and suddenly re-apply its full mass...well, there's probably no way to tell what exactly would happen, but it's unlikely it would survive this situation.

Seem to accelerate just fine, from whatever to a gazillion times the speed of light.  Yes, you may argue that it's the relay doing something, but it may not be either.  There's no argument to support either scenario.

The need for an end point, to me, is logical only in that you generally want to stop somewhere that's well defined.

Given that FTL travel is impossible and there's no maths to define it, it's probably a little bit late to start trying to apply physics in massless to mass based FTL deceleration.

It would seem to me that the need for the second relay isn't so much to stop you, but GUIDE you.  What happens if you fling from a relay and smash into an object like a planet?  Likely the 2 relays would work in concert to ensure that this doesn't happen.

As for the Reapers nobody knows how they do it, other than BIOWARE.  Perhaps it's linked to the reason they are reapers, maybe an ancient race was dying off and decided building a Reaper was preferable.  Why they went to dark space, or anything else will just be guessing.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

marshalleck wrote...

Read the codex.

Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often
from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed
one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary
relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few
hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay
can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.

Again, if you wish to get around this by saying the Citadel is extra-special magic, you're just arbitrarily redefining how this technology functions.

...and I repeat, that does not preclude a single-ended relay from working.  They are working like that as per design, because otherwise travelling ships would end up at the end of the field's range, as opposed to some lesser range.  I thought I had already stated that.

It's not "extra-special" magic.  It's just an application of the mass relay in a fashion that most would never intend, because people like to end up near stuff, as opposed to being dumped in the middle of space somewhere.  See that last line, middle of space.  Dark space.  Reapers.

sigh

Am over it now.

[marshalleck]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Read the codex.

Primary mass relays can propel ships thousands of light years, often
from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed
one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one other primary
relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships a few
hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional: a secondary relay
can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range.

Again, if you wish to get around this by saying the Citadel is extra-special magic, you're just arbitrarily redefining how this technology functions.

...and I repeat, that does not preclude a single-ended relay from working.  They are working like that as per design, because otherwise travelling ships would end up at the end of the field's range, as opposed to some lesser range.  I thought I had already stated that.

It's not "extra-special" magic.  It's just an application of the mass relay in a fashion that most would never intend, because people like to end up near stuff, as opposed to being dumped in the middle of space somewhere.  See that last line, middle of space.  Dark space.  Reapers.

sigh

Am over it now.

No, sorry. You're giving a new definition of some new technology. What you're describing is not a mass relay, it's something else. What a mass relay is and how it functions is clearly established in the lore.

Besides, explain to me why the Reapers need the Citadel to transit into the galaxy, as we know they do per the events in ME1, if they could just use any relay without inputting a specific end-point. They'd just catapult into the galaxy from where ever they are. They'd have no need to activate the Citadel prior to invasion.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 06:04 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Game's over mate. I do not have the inclination to continue with this further.  I'm out.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 04 mars 2010 - 06:11 .

[marshalleck]

Fair enough. I shall return to my BSG watching then.

[fredders]

Someone may have already suggested this, but what if all the Reapers were directly connected to the Citadels Mass Relay? Could they all have the technology in them that allows then to warp themselves, without the need of a Mass Relay?



My guess is no, but an interesting theory!

[adam_grif]

They attached thrusters to a citadel sized mass relay and waited a while.

[Karstedt]

They used a mass relay.

[Vagula]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Daeion wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I personally suspect that the size of the Citadel gives a clue. It's the only Mass Relay that the Reapers built that is able to operate without a matching relay at the other end. All we know to date is that all lesser relays need a matching end. It cannot be assumed though that a Relay the size of sophistication of the Citadel needs to operate under such a restriction.

And your proof that there isn't another relay in Dark Space?  Why can't it be assumed that the citadel relay needs to operate with the same restrictions as the same technology it's based off of.

Why assume that it has to work the same?  The Reapers built it.  It's nothing at all like any of the other relays, and it's their "secret weapon" for getting back into the Galaxy from dark space.  Having a relay at the other end just increases the risk that someone could figure out how to activate the Citadel and catch the reapers out when they're hibernating, and that would be the last thing that they would want.  Having the Citadel be the sole device means that without a matching set of co-ordinates for where the fleet is, there's pretty much zero chance that they'll be caught with their pants down.  At best, the people who discover what the Citadel is will just marvel at the ability to go anywhere it points and still be caught by surprise when the Citadel auto-activates and brings the fleet through.

Wouldn't it be then much wiser to build the super relay in darkspace instead of the citadel? Then you wouldn't need anyone to activate the keepers because you could just activate your own end and attack.

[kraidy1117]

Radwar wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Dark space isn't another dimension or anything, it's simply the area between galaxies where there are no stars.  For all we know their 2nd relay could simply be 1 light year into dark space.

And your proof of that?

Frankly there hasn't been any confirmation of where darkspace is. Personally it could be another dimension. The Reaper's are alot more advanced technologically than any other species, so it's possible they found a way of going from one dimension to the other where they could hibernate without the risk of being discovered by other advanced races.

I can tell you did not listen to Vigil or passed science class. Dark Space is the space between Galaxies. There is nothing there, no stars, planets anything. Its empty.

[Urazz]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Daeion wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I personally suspect that the size of the Citadel gives a clue. It's the only Mass Relay that the Reapers built that is able to operate without a matching relay at the other end. All we know to date is that all lesser relays need a matching end. It cannot be assumed though that a Relay the size of sophistication of the Citadel needs to operate under such a restriction.

And your proof that there isn't another relay in Dark Space?  Why can't it be assumed that the citadel relay needs to operate with the same restrictions as the same technology it's based off of.

Why assume that it has to work the same?  The Reapers built it.  It's nothing at all like any of the other relays, and it's their "secret weapon" for getting back into the Galaxy from dark space.  Having a relay at the other end just increases the risk that someone could figure out how to activate the Citadel and catch the reapers out when they're hibernating, and that would be the last thing that they would want.  Having the Citadel be the sole device means that without a matching set of co-ordinates for where the fleet is, there's pretty much zero chance that they'll be caught with their pants down.  At best, the people who discover what the Citadel is will just marvel at the ability to go anywhere it points and still be caught by surprise when the Citadel auto-activates and brings the fleet through.

Relays won't work if the one on the other side is shut down.  Hence why noone discovered the reaper fleet in dark space.  It's also why the other races didn't discover humanity earlier before we had space traveling technology.  Our mass relay wasn't activated at the time and was encased in ice from Pluto's moon, Charon, if I recall.

The citadel is a mass relay with only one destination and it is disguised well so noone is going to discover that it is a giant mass relay while the mass relay part of it is shut down in addition to the dark space relay being shut down as well.  I'm thinking the dark space relay and the reapers in dark space are activated by the same signal that was sent to the keepers to activate the citadel relay.  Which is probably why Harbinger was out and about in ME2 after Soveriegn died.

[kraidy1117]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

With Science!

space magic

[Karpsy]

Are we assuming that the Reapers originated from our galaxy? Could they have come from somewhere across dark space?



No that it matters that much to the discussion though, it's just a thought.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Urazz wrote...

Relays won't work if the one on the other side is shut down. 

I still don't understand how the operation of existing relays prevents a single-sided application.

Picture this scenario if you will:

Neanderthal man is brought to the future.  He comes across a modern train network.  He's looks at it and the train won't move.  Why doesn't it move?  Because the platform at the other end isn't ready and has signalled this platform not to de-activate the trains brakes.

Now, what can we deduce from this.

Neanderthal believes, through black box observation and with no knowledge if the inner workings of the mechanism, that a train cannot possibly move unless both platforms are ready.  ie. the platform controls the train's brakes, and that's simply "how it works".

Neanderthal man doesn't truly understand that the train is perfectly capable of moving under its own power if the mechanism/link between its platform and its braking system is de-activated.

Problem is, all the platform/trains he's seen work in that manner, so he incorrectly assumes that for a train to leave a platform by itself, without the other end first signalling, simply goes against "how they work".  That's WRONG he declares.  It's impossible and stupid to assume that, he yells.

His presumption is false though.  He doesn't understand that the platform communication and linked braking mechanism is by design of the creators of the transpot system.  Trains can perfectly well travel along and leave a platform by themselves without the remote platform first signalling if that mechanism is not present.

The point being is that it is a false supposition to claim that all mass relay effects MUST have two ends on the basis of merely observing how existing mass relay networks work.  The two-ended thing is just an implementational issue for safety and arrival location stability.  Remove the "safety" mechanism, and the train can leave or arrive at a platform via the tracks (corridor) whenever it wants to.

Now, if Neanderthal man wants to think that trains arriving/departing at/from a singular platform by itself with no matching destination platform is "magic" and "deus ex", then that's his problem.  Just because he didn't truly understand how things worked doesn't mean that it's not possible.

About the only difference, as I see it, is that the tracks/corridor doesn't exist until at least 1 of the ends is activated.

Ok, that's about as basic as I can make it.  If you wish to argue against that, go ahead, but keep in mind that example.  In the ME world, humans are Neanderthals and are only observing an established transport network, without truly understanding how they work.

[Canez fan 1988]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Urazz wrote...

Relays won't work if the one on the other side is shut down. 

I still don't understand how the operation of existing relays prevents a single-sided application.

Picture this scenario if you will:

Neanderthal man is brought to the future.  He comes across a modern train network.  He's looks at it and the train won't move.  Why doesn't it move?  Because the platform at the other end isn't ready and has signalled this platform not to de-activate the trains brakes.

Now, what can we deduce from this.

Neanderthal believes, through black box observation and with no knowledge if the inner workings of the mechanism, that a train cannot possibly move unless both platforms are ready.  ie. the platform controls the train's brakes, and that's simply "how it works".

Neanderthal man doesn't truly understand that the train is perfectly capable of moving under its own power if the mechanism/link between its platform and its braking system is de-activated.

Problem is, all the platform/trains he's seen work in that manner, so he incorrectly assumes that for a train to leave a platform by itself, without the other end first signalling, simply goes against "how they work".  That's WRONG he declares.  It's impossible and stupid to assume that, he yells.

His presumption is false though.  He doesn't understand that the platform communication and linked braking mechanism is by design of the creators of the transpot system.  Trains can perfectly well travel along and leave a platform by themselves without the remote platform first signalling if that mechanism is not present.

The point being is that it is a false supposition to claim that all mass relay effects MUST have two ends on the basis of merely observing how existing mass relay networks work.  The two-ended thing is just an implementational issue for safety and arrival location stability.  Remove the "safety" mechanism, and the train can leave or arrive at a platform via the tracks (corridor) whenever it wants to.

Now, if Neanderthal man wants to think that trains arriving/departing at/from a singular platform by itself with no matching destination platform is "magic" and "deus ex", then that's his problem.  Just because he didn't truly understand how things worked doesn't mean that it's not possible.

About the only difference, as I see it, is that the tracks/corridor doesn't exist until at least 1 of the ends is activated.

Ok, that's about as basic as I can make it.  If you wish to argue against that, go ahead, but keep in mind that example.  In the ME world, humans are Neanderthals and are only observing an established transport network, without truly understanding how they work.

A single sided relay does not exist. You are making it up. It's not a false supposition when it's established in game that RELAYS only work with a begin point and an end point. I'm not saying it can't exist, I'm saying as of right now it does not exist in the known galaxy. With that being said, considering what has been established by BIOWARE, it is perfectly logical to assume that there is a relay in dark space that connects to the Citadel, because that is how they work.

Your theory ignores everything that has been established thus far.

Modifié par Canez fan 1988, 05 mars 2010 - 04:47 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

A single sided relay does not exist. You are making it up. It's not a false supposition when it's established in game that RELAYS only work with a begin point and an end point. I'm not saying it can't exist, I'm saying as of right now it does not exist in the known galaxy. With that being said, considering what has been established by BIOWARE, it is perfectly logical to assume that there is a relay in dark space that connects to the Citadel, because that is how they work.

Your theory ignores everything that has been established thus far.

If you're going to refute the theory, it would be best to propose a statement that is not a self-defeating tautology with respect to the example that I proposed.

I said that we may not understand the full tech.  That is logical.

You say that we do understand it, we understand all of it, that's all there is to know, how it works, and how it'll always be proven to work.  Gee, sounding a lot like the guy in my example, no?

One particular thing of note.  If there's a mass-relay at the reaper fleet end, then why do we not see them around it?  They've just powered up as we see their lights coming on.  If they're ready to pour through, then the relay would be in front of them.  We see a shot from both their point of view towards the galaxy, and behind them.  You know what I didn't see?  I didn't see a gigantic Citadel sized relay that's about quarter the size of the visible Reaper fleet sitting anywhere near them....

You might then argue, oh, they didn't want to be anywhere near it because someone might come through and find them, which invalidates the argument that a mass relay can only work if both ends are activated, so why would they need to be far away from the inactive relay that would logically be right next them?

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 05 mars 2010 - 05:02 .

[adam_grif]

TheUnusualSuspect, we have no evidence to suggest that relays can operate in a one-way fashion. Until we get said evidence, we have to assume that they can't. This seems most likely based on what we do have, which is a whole network of relays that require 2 ends to work properly.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

adam_grif wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect, we have no evidence to suggest that relays can operate in a one-way fashion. Until we get said evidence, we have to assume that they can't. This seems most likely based on what we do have, which is a whole network of relays that require 2 ends to work properly.

I do respect your opinion adam_grif.  You're one of the more intelligent people here, but can you at least see how I'm reaching my proposals, and the reasoning behind them?  Especially in absence of any evidence (visual) that they have a relay at their end....

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 05 mars 2010 - 05:04 .