132 réponses à ce sujet

[adam_grif]

http://www.youtube.c...w&v=HVwcXvgshUQ



Here is the ending ending again for a look. We don't see a citadel twin, but we also don't see the full extent of the fleet either. We just get two shots of a lot of Reapers. They haven't necessarily "just woken up", and may have already been flying since the ending of ME1, or maybe as soon as the collector base was neutralized. We can't conclude from this footage that there isn't a Citadel twin in darkspace, because there's far too much up in the air.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

We'll just have to see if ME3 ever explains it then.

[Spiratic]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

A single sided relay does not exist. You are making it up. It's not a false supposition when it's established in game that RELAYS only work with a begin point and an end point. I'm not saying it can't exist, I'm saying as of right now it does not exist in the known galaxy. With that being said, considering what has been established by BIOWARE, it is perfectly logical to assume that there is a relay in dark space that connects to the Citadel, because that is how they work.

Your theory ignores everything that has been established thus far.

If you're going to refute the theory, it would be best to propose a statement that is not a self-defeating tautology with respect to the example that I proposed.

I said that we may not understand the full tech.  That is logical.

You say that we do understand it, we understand all of it, that's all there is to know, how it works, and how it'll always be proven to work.  Gee, sounding a lot like the guy in my example, no?

One particular thing of note.  If there's a mass-relay at the reaper fleet end, then why do we not see them around it?  They've just powered up as we see their lights coming on.  If they're ready to pour through, then the relay would be in front of them.  We see a shot from both their point of view towards the galaxy, and behind them.  You know what I didn't see?  I didn't see a gigantic Citadel sized relay that's about quarter the size of the visible Reaper fleet sitting anywhere near them....

You might then argue, oh, they didn't want to be anywhere near it because someone might come through and find them, which invalidates the argument that a mass relay can only work if both ends are activated, so why would they need to be far away from the inactive relay that would logically be right next them?

It is a false supposition, that being said in theory it could work that way, in theory though alot of things could be possible, the entire thing could be ended as a fantasy of shepard's, and you discover this when after the entire trilogy shepard wakes up in the normandies med bay right after Eden Prime and is informed hes been in a coma for a month or so thereby making the entire trilogy pointless. Is it any more or less sound then what you propose? No. Would it be terrible writing? Yes.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Just putting it out there, from the in-game Codex:

http://masseffect.wi...-Relay_Assaults

Space Combat: Trans-Relay Assaults

The crucial choice for any attack through mass relays
is how to divide the fleet for transit. The accuracy of a relay's
mass-projection depends on the mass being moved and how far it’s going.
Any long distance and/or high mass jump will see "drift". That is, a
ship may be hundreds or millions of kilometers from its intended drop
point, in any direction from the relay.
Distance can't be chosen by admirals, but a relay is told how
much mass to transit. For example, if told to move a million metric
tons of mass, the relay will scan the approach corridor, find four
250,000-ton freighters, and transit them together, maintaining their
relative positions.
....

That explains it in pretty good detail, that it really is just the singular mass-relay that's creating the corridor, and the mass-relay then puts ships into it.   Makes no mention of the other end doing anything at all, so the logical assumption is that mass-relays create a corridor in the direction of another mass-relay purely out of design and convenience, and not for any actual reason to needing the end-point relay to do anything to terminate the corridor.

ie.  A mass-relay just creates the corridor, and puts you in it.

Seems VERY plausible to me that a citadel sized relay would just create a corridor into dark space where the reapers are, and the reapers have the ability to enter the corridor without needing a mass relay to get them into it.  They are, after-all, exceptional craft and about the size of a Mass Relay themselves and have been shown to do things in ME1 that are impossible by existing sapient life technology.

But anyway, there you have it.  A single-end creates the corridor.  For normal ships, the relay assist you into the corridor.  It isn't much of a stretch to believe that the Reapers can put themselves into a corridor given their size and the fact that they built the Relays.  If the relays don't activate unless the other end is activated, than that appears to be more of a safety mechanism, such as if it fell into a sun or planet, and you don't want to be blindly launched into a sun/planet unless the other end is active and says that the transit is safe.

Ok, all up, I reckon I've presented a substantial amount of evidence using in-game canon to prove my side of the argument.  Most nay-sayers here have provided nothing but opinion or a steadfast inablity to move beyond a limited interpretation.

I look forwards to Mass Effect 3 Canon clearing this up, unless of course a Bioware writer wants to jump in here and lay some smack-down sooner....

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 05 mars 2010 - 08:53 .

[zer0netgain]

My 2 cents.



A relay is like a big slingshot that can shoot something a fair distance. We presume you need 2 relays, but what's to say a single relay couldn't shoot something at FTL speeds X distance? Use the Citadel relay to shoot an opposing relay as far as it will go, let the Reapers follow and tow it the rest of the way.

[Canez fan 1988]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

A single sided relay does not exist. You are making it up. It's not a false supposition when it's established in game that RELAYS only work with a begin point and an end point. I'm not saying it can't exist, I'm saying as of right now it does not exist in the known galaxy. With that being said, considering what has been established by BIOWARE, it is perfectly logical to assume that there is a relay in dark space that connects to the Citadel, because that is how they work.

Your theory ignores everything that has been established thus far.

One particular thing of note.  If there's a mass-relay at the reaper fleet end, then why do we not see them around it?  They've just powered up as we see their lights coming on.  If they're ready to pour through, then the relay would be in front of them.  We see a shot from both their point of view towards the galaxy, and behind them.  You know what I didn't see?  I didn't see a gigantic Citadel sized relay that's about quarter the size of the visible Reaper fleet sitting anywhere near them....

You might then argue, oh, they didn't want to be anywhere near it because someone might come through and find them, which invalidates the argument that a mass relay can only work if both ends are activated, so why would they need to be far away from the inactive relay that would logically be right next them?

First of all if there was a relay they could go through, they would have went it through it already. Why would they leave a vanguard within the Galaxy to send a signal to the Citadel to open the relay if they could just pour through whenever they please? It's pretty simple actually: They can't activate that relay from their end. It can only be closed from their end. It is activated at the Citadel. Like I said, if they could, they would be here already and it would negate the entire plot of the first game.

The Reapers are arrogant. They have completed the extinction cycle for millions of year without issue. They never believed that the Protheans would be able to reverse the signal sent to the Keepers, the signal that gave the command to the Keepers to open the relay. Now their trapped in dark space because of it. I don't know why you have such hard time understanding that.

[zer0netgain]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

First of all if there was a relay they could go through, they would have went it through it already. Why would they leave a vanguard within the Galaxy to send a signal to the Citadel to open the relay if they could just pour through whenever they please? It's pretty simple actually: They can't activate that relay from their end. It can only be closed from their end. It is activated at the Citadel. Like I said, if they could, they would be here already and it would negate the entire plot of the first game.

Well, if I'm wrong about a single relay being able to do anything, fine.  My thought, however, is that a single relay could propel something X distance, but there'd be a limit.  Two relays make being propelled an indefinite distance possible.

[Canez fan 1988]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Just putting it out there, from the in-game Codex:

http://masseffect.wi...-Relay_Assaults

Space Combat: Trans-Relay Assaults

The crucial choice for any attack through mass relays
is how to divide the fleet for transit. The accuracy of a relay's
mass-projection depends on the mass being moved and how far it’s going.
Any long distance and/or high mass jump will see "drift". That is, a
ship may be hundreds or millions of kilometers from its intended drop
point, in any direction from the relay.
Distance can't be chosen by admirals, but a relay is told how
much mass to transit. For example, if told to move a million metric
tons of mass, the relay will scan the approach corridor, find four
250,000-ton freighters, and transit them together, maintaining their
relative positions.
....

That explains it in pretty good detail, that it really is just the singular mass-relay that's creating the corridor, and the mass-relay then puts ships into it.   Makes no mention of the other end doing anything at all, so the logical assumption is that mass-relays create a corridor in the direction of another mass-relay purely out of design and convenience, and not for any actual reason to needing the end-point relay to do anything to terminate the corridor.

ie.  A mass-relay just creates the corridor, and puts you in it.

Seems VERY plausible to me that a citadel sized relay would just create a corridor into dark space where the reapers are, and the reapers have the ability to enter the corridor without needing a mass relay to get them into it.  They are, after-all, exceptional craft and about the size of a Mass Relay themselves and have been shown to do things in ME1 that are impossible by existing sapient life technology.

But anyway, there you have it.  A single-end creates the corridor.  For normal ships, the relay assist you into the corridor.  It isn't much of a stretch to believe that the Reapers can put themselves into a corridor given their size and the fact that they built the Relays.  If the relays don't activate unless the other end is activated, than that appears to be more of a safety mechanism, such as if it fell into a sun or planet, and you don't want to be blindly launched into a sun/planet unless the other end is active and says that the transit is safe.

Ok, all up, I reckon I've presented a substantial amount of evidence using in-game canon to prove my side of the argument.  Most nay-sayers here have provided nothing but opinion or a steadfast inablity to move beyond a limited interpretation.

I look forwards to Mass Effect 3 Canon clearing this up, unless of course a Bioware writer wants to jump in here and lay some smack-down sooner....

Your stretching it. All that codex entry says is that you must input the mass of the object entering the relay so that it can be properly and safely transmitted through. Without the end point, you could keep going, and you would not arrive at the position you wanted. The amount of mass you input is probably directly related to the amount of drift that occurs. Larger objects drift further. With that being said, that doesn't give any weight to your theory. None. All that does is confirm you need a second relay to arrive at a precise point.

Like I said before, it's perfectly logical to assume that there is a relay in dark space that cannot be activated by the Reapers because......

A) It's only activated through the Citadel
B)The Reapers never thought of a contingency because they were too arrogant to believe their design had flaws.

All the naysayers you talk about have based their arguments in FACTS from the games, you on the other hand have based yours on speculation. Believe what you want, but don't expect many to follow you when you have no evidence to support your claim.

[Canez fan 1988]

zer0netgain wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

First of all if there was a relay they could go through, they would have went it through it already. Why would they leave a vanguard within the Galaxy to send a signal to the Citadel to open the relay if they could just pour through whenever they please? It's pretty simple actually: They can't activate that relay from their end. It can only be closed from their end. It is activated at the Citadel. Like I said, if they could, they would be here already and it would negate the entire plot of the first game.

Well, if I'm wrong about a single relay being able to do anything, fine.  My thought, however, is that a single relay could propel something X distance, but there'd be a limit.  Two relays make being propelled an indefinite distance possible.

From my understanding, a single sided relay would propel an object until it stops. That's the whole point of having a second exit relay on the other side, so that you know where your going to be arriving, give or take a few hundred/million kilometers due to the drift that's occuring.

[JaegerBane]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...
Ok, all up, I reckon I've presented a substantial amount of evidence using in-game canon to prove my side of the argument.  Most nay-sayers here have provided nothing but opinion or a steadfast inablity to move beyond a limited interpretation.

I look forwards to Mass Effect 3 Canon clearing this up, unless of course a Bioware writer wants to jump in here and lay some smack-down sooner....

The problem with this entire argument, Suspect, is that it's based on a number of assumptions that frankly, aren't really supported. From what I can tell, you use the following points to back up your argument:

The Reapers built the Relays, therefore they can do stuff we may not know about

While it's quite logical that the Reapers have a more advanced understanding of them, you're going way beyond that and assuming they can do *anything*. It's a logical fallacy - you're using a lack of knowledge as a reason in itself. The Reapers are still bound by physics - they may have built the relays, but considering the predicament they are in currently, and considering the lack of evidence to suggest Relays can function in the manner you state, this doesn't amount to a reasonable assumption.

The size of the Citadel implies that it functions differently to other Mass Relays

This is another assumption without any justification. There are two issues with this - the first being that the Citadel was intended to serve as bait for a trap. If the races of the galaxy found a giant mass relay rather than an empty but well-cared for space station, it is unlikely that they would have taken the bait and set up shop. Worse, if it looked like a Mass Relay, they may have attempted to activate it... running the risk of finding the Reapers in their vulnerable state. Secondly, Its size may have nothing to do with it's ability to transport the Reaper fleet. The Conduit, for instance, could transport at least Mako-size units across nearly the entire galaxy, and that was only the size of a large cargo train.

The article implies that the other relay in the chain play little part in the process

Flat out wrong. It doesn't really mention this at all, and other articles make it absolutely clear that Relays have to be able to communicate with their end points. Primary Relays don't even function with any other than their partner relay. None of this indicates the Relays can function in isolation.

There is nothing in the codex that expressly contradicts that 'corridors' can work with one relay

This is not evidence. There isn't anything in there that says the turian councillor isn't actually Bill Gates in disguise and the Reapers are the result of exposing an unsuspecting species to Windows 10. The Codex is clearly not an exhaustive list and using a lack of contradiction as proof is an indicator of a weak theory. It's no different to the 'God of the Gaps' style of thinking.

At the end of ME2, you can't see another Relay in dark space

By far, the weakest point. It's a 4 second set of footage. You can't even clearly see most of what it's depicting.

Ultimately, your 'substantial evidence' amounts to little more than your interpretation. There isn't anything solid. Not that this *disproves* your theory, either, just that it makes it less likely.

Vagula, however, made the most insightful comment, and one you really need to answer in order to justify your theory. If, as you say, the Reapers can use Relays to simply open up 'corridors' and terminate them wherever they wish, irrespective of other relays...

Why do the Reapers leave their only unit required for the corridor in the galaxy, rather than leave it in Dark Space and activate it from there? What possible benefit are they deriving by doing this?

It is vastly likely they did this because they have no choice. Because relays require at least two to form a corridor, one at either end of the journey. There is no reason why they would have done this if they required only one relay.

[epoch_]

Daeion wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I personally suspect that the size of the Citadel gives a clue. It's the only Mass Relay that the Reapers built that is able to operate without a matching relay at the other end. All we know to date is that all lesser relays need a matching end. It cannot be assumed though that a Relay the size of sophistication of the Citadel needs to operate under such a restriction.

And your proof that there isn't another relay in Dark Space?  Why can't it be assumed that the citadel relay needs to operate with the same restrictions as the same technology it's based off of.

Seriously. It should be assumed there there is, rather than isn't because of the other relays.

[epoch_]

Spuudle wrote...

Whos to say that the salarian dude who was scanning the keepers in ME1, (and sends you an e-mail in ME2) doesn't continue his research, but by some mistake, manages to reverse the changes made by Vigils software, enabling the keepers to act on the reaper signal, activate the Citadel relay, and enable the reapers to come pouring through??

Because in some playthroughs he's dead/arrested/or he didn't get the data.

[zer0netgain]

JaegerBane wrote...

Why do the Reapers leave their only unit required for the corridor in the galaxy, rather than leave it in Dark Space and activate it from there? What possible benefit are they deriving by doing this?

It is vastly likely they did this because they have no choice. Because relays require at least two to form a corridor, one at either end of the journey. There is no reason why they would have done this if they required only one relay.

Of course, if my idea of using a single relay to jump as far as it can "throw" an object, maybe the Reapers did use their relay to shoot themselves as close to the Milky Way galaxy as it would reach...leaving them to travel the rest of the distance on FTL drive.

If the Reapers are far enough out, it'd take decades to reach Citadel space.

In fact, IIRC, the codex is clear that FTL drive, for all it's speed, is too slow to traverse real space in a practical amount of time...hence the reliance on the relays.

[Zemore]

they kept going till they got there



/thread

[jkflipflopDAO]

This is a pretty big gap in the story that I hope gets filled. If the reapers are so smart, it stands to reason they would have built a bigass relay out in darkspace with them, so they could just activate it on their own terms when the time is right.



Why make only the citadel and a race of brainless husks that are your only means of activating it?

[Zemore]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

This is a pretty big gap in the story that I hope gets filled. If the reapers are so smart, it stands to reason they would have built a bigass relay out in darkspace with them, so they could just activate it on their own terms when the time is right.

Why make only the citadel and a race of brainless husks that are your only means of activating it?

its not really a plot hole it makes 100% perfect sense
the reapers cant think of new ideas
there totally devoid of creativity It worked a million times they assumed it would ALWAYS work.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

I can see that to those disagreeing with me that we're at an absolutely intractable impasse. I disagree with all of the points that JaegerBane wrote above and can express clearly why I do, but really this is just getting silly now. Respectfully, I shall leave my argument to stand on its own merit. Those who think about it hard enough from a neutral point of view will undertstand it, rather than outright dismissing it from a opposing debate perspective.

Have fun with the game, and I can't wait for ME3.

Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 05 mars 2010 - 09:58 .

[JaegerBane]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

I can see that to those disagreeing with me that we're at an absolutely intractable impasse. I disagree with all of the points that JaegerBane wrote above and can express clearly why I do, but really this is just getting silly now. Respectfully, I shall leave my argument to stand on its own merit. Those who think about it hard enough from a neutral point of view will undertstand it, rather than outright dismissing it from a opposing debate perspective.

Have fun with the game, and I can't wait for ME3.

Suspect, if you're not going to even bother debating the point then it's not really clear why you're still posting.You haven't 'expressed clearly' why you disagree because I was questioning your own points. You haven't even responded to Vagula's point.

And the your tat above effectively translates as 'I'm right and anyone disagrees with me is wrong because I say so'. If you can't explain to me exactly why my points to you are not 'neutral' then you effectively don't have an argument. Those were honest questions without any particular intention to degrade or boost your argument, with all detail taken directly from the evidence we have to hand.

Unless you're going to start claiming the codex and the game are biased too....

[JaegerBane]

Zemore wrote...

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

This is a pretty big gap in the story that I hope gets filled. If the reapers are so smart, it stands to reason they would have built a bigass relay out in darkspace with them, so they could just activate it on their own terms when the time is right.

Why make only the citadel and a race of brainless husks that are your only means of activating it?

its not really a plot hole it makes 100% perfect sense
the reapers cant think of new ideas
there totally devoid of creativity It worked a million times they assumed it would ALWAYS work.

Given the content of the conversation with Sovereign in ME1, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

JaegerBane wrote...

Suspect, if you're not going to even bother debating the point then it's not really clear why you're still posting.

To put it quite simply, I'm tired of debating it.  Period.  Don't feel special.  I'm just over it.

[JaegerBane]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

Suspect, if you're not going to even bother debating the point then it's not really clear why you're still posting.

To put it quite simply, I'm tired of debating it.  Period.  Don't feel special.  I'm just over it.

Ladies and Gentleman, Eric Cartman has left the building.

[Zemore]

JaegerBane wrote...

Given the content of the conversation with Sovereign in ME1, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

even look at mordins opinion on the collectors Culturally dead .... the reapers did to Saren what they did to the collectors they are repeating many  patterns that just show they dont have any new ideas they gave themselves no limits in comparison to the rest of the galaxy and have had nothing to overcome in Aeons.

its entirley possible they had Contigency plans in the begining but that couldve been Billions of years ago and they could be in a state of disrepair or even destroyed by some Cosmic event or possibly by some race that found it pre prothean.

Modifié par Zemore, 06 mars 2010 - 12:32 .

[Murmillos]

I think the TheUnusualSuspect is playing you all..

[Zemore]

Murmillos wrote...

I think the TheUnusualSuspect is playing you all..

i think hes Keyser Soze

Modifié par Zemore, 06 mars 2010 - 12:48 .