97 réponses à ce sujet

[filetemon]

In my first playtrough Sten gave the final blow to the archdemon so... Sten is the shiitzorz for me

[urvashi]

Hell Mutant wrote...

Yes, the Qunari have rigid ideas about men and women's roles in their social structure, but if you stick with him, as a female character, he gains respect for you as a warrior and his leader (once he starts calling you "Kadan.")

Yeah, I realize that, but I've spent my entire professional life 'earning' the respect of men who are equal or lesser to me in education and/or experience. Since I can't leave real life sexists in a cage for darkspawn to eat, I can at least do it in a game. 

[Hell Mutant]

Of course you don't have to try to convince him that you are a formiddable warrior, he just ends up seeing the truth of it.



But I hear what you are saying.

[urvashi]

I did kind of shut down on Sten very early & haven't looked back. Reading about some of his personality quirks and banter on this forum have kind of made me at least a bit more curious about him. Maybe the next time I play a male PC I'll give Sten another chance. At least I won't have to be personally challenged about my gender, then, lol.

I do wish the writers hadn't gone with the stereotypical sexist route with the Qunari, they could have made a rigid society that didn't follow the pattern of so many human societies of the real world. I don't think I'd be in line to buy a Qunari based DLC, unless perhaps there was going to be a revolution of the women, mages and other lower caste types against the establishment.

[Hell Mutant]

Why pass up the chance to show those Qunari hillbillies how to take a beating?!

[e-ver]

urvashi wrote...

I did kind of shut down on Sten very early & haven't looked back. Reading about some of his personality quirks and banter on this forum have kind of made me at least a bit more curious about him. Maybe the next time I play a male PC I'll give Sten another chance. At least I won't have to be personally challenged about my gender, then, lol.
I do wish the writers hadn't gone with the stereotypical sexist route with the Qunari, they could have made a rigid society that didn't follow the pattern of so many human societies of the real world. I don't think I'd be in line to buy a Qunari based DLC, unless perhaps there was going to be a revolution of the women, mages and other lower caste types against the establishment.

But when playing a female character in DA:O you get challenged about you gender a lot, not only by Sten. Alistair will tell you, that there have never been many women in the GW (it's one of his typical bumbling attepts at flirting, but still), Ser Jory and Daveth will tell you that they didn't know women could join the GW (their remarks will get overwritten by racial remarks though, so a female Elf will not see this), Murdock in Redcliffe comments about it, and so on.
The game is full of people questioning a female PC - and they all come to realize that our female Wardens are all kinds of awesome.

Why do you single out Sten? (I mean this as a serious question.)

[NoAngel89]

knittzu wrote...

Well, just the fact that he dies every 4.5 seconds in combat... aside from that, I have mad love for Sten.

really.... I just use indomable will, and he sometimes out last even the enitre party, plus hes a heavy hitter, making totally beast lol, I prefer him over Orghen, no offense to the dwarf, love his sense of humor.

Everything you said about I love, especially if you play like a paragon, (making suposed good noble choices), I love how mysterous he can be. The relucantess, about speaking about himself personal, really makes him looked alike such a deep character, plus its not easy appealing to him sometimes, when you do get him to like ya, its really well earned. Plus I love how mentor like he sometimes sounds

Modifié par NoAngel89, 05 mars 2010 - 09:53 .

[CalJones]

Sten always seems to end up my Warden's best friend, no matter what gender, race or class I play. His banters and comments are hilarious and his voice is pretty sexy too. Two handers are pretty much the worst choice for a warrior but he does OK later on in the game. As a character I love him. As a party member he does need a bit of work.

[NoAngel89]

CalJones wrote...

Sten always seems to end up my Warden's best friend, no matter what gender, race or class I play. His banters and comments are hilarious and his voice is pretty sexy too. Two handers are pretty much the worst choice for a warrior but he does OK later on in the game. As a character I love him. As a party member he does need a bit of work.

yeah.... Dual warriors are by far the best fighters in the game, warriors like shield sword, are more for crowd control, busting people back with a shield, and two handed sword, well gets lucky when you hit, but looks coo loll.

Modifié par NoAngel89, 05 mars 2010 - 10:43 .

[urvashi]

Allerleihrau wrote...

urvashi wrote...

I did kind of shut down on Sten very early & haven't looked back. Reading about some of his personality quirks and banter on this forum have kind of made me at least a bit more curious about him. Maybe the next time I play a male PC I'll give Sten another chance. At least I won't have to be personally challenged about my gender, then, lol.
I do wish the writers hadn't gone with the stereotypical sexist route with the Qunari, they could have made a rigid society that didn't follow the pattern of so many human societies of the real world. I don't think I'd be in line to buy a Qunari based DLC, unless perhaps there was going to be a revolution of the women, mages and other lower caste types against the establishment.

But when playing a female character in DA:O you get challenged about you gender a lot, not only by Sten. Alistair will tell you, that there have never been many women in the GW (it's one of his typical bumbling attepts at flirting, but still), Ser Jory and Daveth will tell you that they didn't know women could join the GW (their remarks will get overwritten by racial remarks though, so a female Elf will not see this), Murdock in Redcliffe comments about it, and so on.
The game is full of people questioning a female PC - and they all come to realize that our female Wardens are all kinds of awesome.

Why do you single out Sten? (I mean this as a serious question.)

Actually, when I created my first female character and read that females in Ferelden were treated much the same as men, I was surprised to get so much reaction in game from males I'd encounter about being a female fighter. It's not as equal as the blurb on the character creation screen says.
But there is a difference between saying that there haven't been many women Grey Wardens as Alistair says, or that Daveth and Jory weren't even aware that women were accepted as Grey Wardens, and the Qunari belief that women cannot be warriors. Women are allowed to be warriors in Ferelden, but they apparently don't choose that role as often as men do. Men will show surprise sometimes at seeing a female warrior, but they don't say it's impossible for her to be one, or that it isn't her place as Sten does. Ferelden has not achieved perfect gender equality, but it's not that different from what I see in contemporary culture. Women have more freedom now, but still get challenged sometimes when taking on a traditionally male role. I don't expect any more perfection in a video game than I see in the real world around me, so I'm not too fussed by the reactions I get from Ferelden men.
Sten's reaction does bother me, because it comes from a belief that women cannot be fighters or leaders, that it is just not their place.

Modifié par urvashi, 05 mars 2010 - 11:29 .

[StartatZero]

I thought Sten was a great character, good introduction to the qunari. I lol'd when he said he liked cookies. And I also like his party banter.

[ejikvkaske]

Sten the best character? NO.

[e-ver]

urvashi wrote...
Actually, when I created my first female character and read that females in Ferelden were treated much the same as men, I was surprised to get so much reaction in game from males I'd encounter about being a female fighter. It's not as equal as the blurb on the character creation screen says.
But there is a difference between saying that there haven't been many women Grey Wardens as Alistair says, or that Daveth and Jory weren't even aware that women were accepted as Grey Wardens, and the Qunari belief that women cannot be warriors. Women are allowed to be warriors in Ferelden, but they apparently don't choose that role as often as men do. Men will show surprise sometimes at seeing a female warrior, but they don't say it's impossible for her to be one, or that it isn't her place as Sten does. Ferelden has not achieved perfect gender equality, but it's not that different from what I see in contemporary culture. Women have more freedom now, but still get challenged sometimes when taking on a traditionally male role. I don't expect any more perfection in a video game than I see in the real world around me, so I'm not too fussed by the reactions I get from Ferelden men.
Sten's reaction does bother me, because it comes from a belief that women cannot be fighters or leaders, that it is just not their place.

I see where you are coming from, but in my experience with Sten, he does pretty much the same thing as Daveth, Jory, Murdock and all the others: while they voice their surprise at seeing a female Warden, Sten voices his confusion about a woman who is fighting. But he doesn't tell her that she shouldn't do it, or that she isn't able to do it, he just says: "We'll see.", when she tells him that she is a woman who is fighting. I think that's a fair comment, considering, that the PC just told him something that goes against everything he has learned and experienced. He is willing to accept her statement for now, but she will have to prove her abilities (which ironically is achieved, among other things, by telling him that you're not here to prove anything to him, because Sten respects characters who stand up to him and others). But not only female PCs have to prove their worth to him, male PCs have to as well, as does Alistair (there is a banter between the two, where Sten will come to the conslusion, that  Alistair isn't completely spineless, even though he acts like it).

I think it is important to distinguish Sten from Qunari society as a whole. While the Qunari have a rigid system, that one may or may not interpret as misogynistic (I prefer to do neither, until we learn more about them), Sten does at no point in the game treat a female Warden differently. Apart from the "I do not understand, you look like a woman" conversation, but as his entry line says: he seeks to understand the PC, not force his way of thinking on her or pigeonhole her.



[edit]
An afterthought: You mentioned, that women in Qunari society can't have positions of leadership, but maybe some of the positions that are open to them, are valued just as much. The official strategy guide likens an artist's discipline to that of a warrior (I've taken this information from the wiki, as I don't own the strategy guide). Women can be artisans, while men can't, so I think there is at least a good reason to have doubts about the Qunari shoving their women in demeaning roles.

Modifié par Allerleihrau, 06 mars 2010 - 12:11 .

[urvashi]

Allerleihrau wrote..


I see where you are coming from, but in my experience with Sten, he does pretty much the same thing as Daveth, Jory, Murdock and all the others: while they voice their surprise at seeing a female Warden, Sten voices his confusion about a woman who is fighting. But he doesn't tell her that she shouldn't do it, or that she isn't able to do it, he just says: "We'll see.", when she tells him that she is a woman who is fighting. I think that's a fair comment, considering, that the PC just told him something that goes against everything he has learned and experienced. He is willing to accept her statement for now, but she will have to prove her abilities (which ironically is achieved, among other things, by telling him that you're not here to prove anything to him, because Sten respects characters who stand up to him and others). But not only female PCs have to prove their worth to him, male PCs have to as well, as does Alistair (there is a banter between the two, where Sten will come to the conslusion, that  Alistair isn't completely spineless, even though he acts like it).

I think it is important to distinguish Sten from Qunari society as a whole. While the Qunari have a rigid system, that one may or may not interpret as misogynistic (I prefer to do neither, until we learn more about them), Sten does at no point in the game treat a female Warden differently. Apart from the "I do not understand, you look like a woman" conversation, but as his entry line says: he seeks to understand the PC, not force his way of thinking on her or pigeonhole her.



[edit]
An afterthought: You mentioned, that women in Qunari society can't have positions of leadership, but maybe some of the positions that are open to them, are valued just as much. The official strategy guide likens an artist's discipline to that of a warrior (Ive taken this information from the wiki, as I don't own tha strategy guide). Women can be artisans, while men can't.

I do want to be clear that I've used the word 'sexist' and not 'misogynist' for Sten and Qunari society, because there is a difference.
You make a lot of really good points. I don't have the strategy guide, either, and haven't read much of the wiki, so what I know about Qunari society is based purely on what Sten says. You are perhaps right that I imposed our own world's standards about which professions have status in Qunari society and assumed women's roles were the lowest status roles. Perhaps the female artisans are equal to or even exalted unfairly above the warriors, and I should not judge until I know more.

At this point I'm relying on memory of previous playthroughs while talking about Sten, but I my interpretation of his 'We'll see' answer was different from yours, I heard more doubt than acceptance, and I also didn't see any need for me to prove anything to him. After all, he is only alive because I sprung him from a cage. But that's purely subjective impressions and can't be argued as facts.
I've done several playthroughs now with Sten being left in Lothering. After reading more about him on these boards I'm going to make a point of doing a playthrough where I recruit him and take him around with me, and give him a chance to earn my respect. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

urvashi wrote...

Sten's reaction does bother me, because it comes from a belief that women cannot be fighters or leaders, that it is just not their place.

You misunderstand.  Sten's position is not that women cannot be fighters or leaders, but that they are not fighters and leaders.  Sten believes that what you are is beyond your control, and women are not fighters or leaders.  They are priests, or farmers.  Some men are fighters.  Some men are leaders.  None of them got to choose any more than a sheep chose to be a sheep rather than a hawk.

It's really quite Nietzschean of him.

[urvashi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

urvashi wrote...

Sten's reaction does bother me, because it comes from a belief that women cannot be fighters or leaders, that it is just not their place.

You misunderstand.  Sten's position is not that women cannot be fighters or leaders, but that they are not fighters and leaders.  Sten believes that what you are is beyond your control, and women are not fighters or leaders.  They are priests, or farmers.  Some men are fighters.  Some men are leaders.  None of them got to choose any more than a sheep chose to be a sheep rather than a hawk.

It's really quite Nietzschean of him.

Well, if I could have left Nietzsche in a cage in Lothering, I probably would.

I understand perfectly fine, the difference you are making is purely semantics. Sten does not believe a female PC Grey Warden can be a female, because females are not fighters. He doubts what he sees happening before him because it doesn't fit in his rigidly deterministic world view. 
The problem with his rigid determinism is that it can be proved demonstrably wrong. Women in Ferelden are fighters and are leaders. Sheep however, can never be hawks (without some kind of shape change magic, I guess.) 
I don't know much about what Qunari female are capable of, so it may well be that Qunari women are not fighters and leaders because they are flat out not capable of it, as a sheep is flat out not capable of taking flight and taking down a squirrel for dinner, but for Sten to insist that females of other races are not warriors (or are not women) when they clearly are kind of indicates his rigid determinism is as much about societal status as it is about anything else.

[e-ver]

urvashi wrote...
I do want to be clear that I've used the word 'sexist' and not 'misogynist' for Sten and Qunari society, because there is a difference.
You make a lot of really good points. I don't have the strategy guide, either, and haven't read much of the wiki, so what I know about Qunari society is based purely on what Sten says. You are perhaps right that I imposed our own world's standards about which professions have status in Qunari society and assumed women's roles were the lowest status roles. Perhaps the female artisans are equal to or even exalted unfairly above the warriors, and I should not judge until I know more.

At this point I'm relying on memory of previous playthroughs while talking about Sten, but I my interpretation of his 'We'll see' answer was different from yours, I heard more doubt than acceptance, and I also didn't see any need for me to prove anything to him. After all, he is only alive because I sprung him from a cage. But that's purely subjective impressions and can't be argued as facts.
I've done several playthroughs now with Sten being left in Lothering. After reading more about him on these boards I'm going to make a point of doing a playthrough where I recruit him and take him around with me, and give him a chance to earn my respect. 

Would you elaborate, why you see Sten and the Qunari as sexist, but not misogynistic? I have to admit, that I can't grasp the difference you're making here - I suppose it's the language barrier (English is not my native tongue).

I may just as well be completely wrong with my assumption that artisans are highly appreciated, it just came to me as an aferthought.
I hear strategy guides often state utter rubbish, but in this case, I suppose the information is correct, because Sten's codex entry also says something along those lines  ("Sten has an eye for paintings, an
appreciation that might seem out of character, but is actually an
extension of qunari discipline. He respects an artist for careful
composition, a skill that is as much about where the brushstroke stops
as where it begins.")
Still, that doesn't necessarily mean that artisans are valued members of society, but it's at least a possibility.


Spoken dialogue can be interpreted in many ways, and I agree with you, he does sound doubtful in this "We'll see." But I somehow never heard a final judgement in this line. (Maybe that's just wishful thinking and I've been kidding myself this whole time. ) I like to check conversation trees in the toolset, because I find the comments that have been left there for the voice actors very interesting. Unfortunately there's next to nothing for this particular dialogue, apart from the directive "puzzled" for the very first line ("I don't understand. You look like a woman.")

After all, he is only alive because I sprung him from a cage.

There is a conversation, where you can ask him something along the lines of  "Why did I let you out of that cage again?" and he wil tell you he doesn't understand it either and this it is one of the many things that he finds puzzling about the PC. I think this is one of the keys to understand how Sten ticks: he is completely alone in a foreign country with people and customs he doesn't understand and who speak a language that he isn't very confident in (that's also information from the toolset). So what else can he do but try to interpret and evaluate those around him with the tools and views that he has used his entire life, only to find out, that they (mainly the PC) can't be calibrated with those tools. And so he - reluctantly and in baby steps - adjusts his own views (a little, which is still a big thing for a Qunari).


I'm glad that you're considering to give him a second chance and I'd be quite interested in hearing how it works out for you the second time around.
One thing to be aware of is, that you'll get additional dialogue, if you actually use him, instead of just talking to him in camp. There are several occasions where he will remark on things (playing children in Denerim, when you enter the Brecilian Forest and the Mage Tower, when leaving a chantry building - those remarks have a 33% chance of triggering and they will only be a few spoken lines and hovering white dialogue if you've got that enabled) and this will open up several multi-staged conversations when you talk to him later ("I wanted to discuss something you mentioned.").




[edit]
While I wrote this, you posted again, and I wanted to adress a detail in your last post. You said:

...but for Sten to insist that females of other races are not warriors (or
are not women) when they clearly are kind of indicates his rigid
determinism is as much about societal status as it is about anything
else.

Sten's problem is - I think - that he just hadn't had an opprtunity to learn that. He came to Ferelden with a bunch of other Qunari, was ambushed near Lake Calenhad and from there went almost directly to his cage in Lothering, where the only people he has seen are refugees, because Lothering's soldiers (who had probably women among them) have left with their Bann. The only fighters that are left are Templars (they were also the ones who arrested him) and those are all male (whether this is coincidence or not, I don't know).

Modifié par Allerleihrau, 06 mars 2010 - 01:35 .

[urvashi]

The difference between misogyny and sexism is that misogyny is a hatred of and hostility toward women. Sexism is a belief that women are lesser than men, are only fit for more menial roles in society. My calling Sten & the Qunari sexist is based on the fact that the roles he gives as suitable for women are in most cultures I've encountered considered less important while the roles he says are for males only are the more prominent and important roles.



I'm playing on Xbox, so I don't even have the help of the toolset to interpret the conversation trees, lol.

I'm starting to look forward to my Sten playthrough, because I've played so many PCs now that I've experienced just about every combination of companions and their banter. It will be like having new DLC to have Sten around for once.

[e-ver]

Thank you for explaining, now I understand what you meant.

[Sylvius the Mad]

urvashi wrote...

I understand perfectly fine, the difference you are making is purely semantics. Sten does not believe a female PC Grey Warden can be a female, because females are not fighters. He doubts what he sees happening before him because it doesn't fit in his rigidly deterministic world view. 
The problem with his rigid determinism is that it can be proved demonstrably wrong. Women in Ferelden are fighters and are leaders. Sheep however, can never be hawks (without some kind of shape change magic, I guess.) 

Sten has already defeated that line of reasoning.  He says that while a farmer can buy a shop, that doesn't turn the farmer into a merchant.  That just makes him a farmer playing at being a merchant.

So, those women you say are fighters or leaders in Ferelden are, in Sten's eyes, simply playing at being fighters or leaders.  What they are hasn't changed.

Neither position can be shown to be more correct than the other.  You prefer yours because you'd rather people be able to choose their paths through life, and so do I, but you're also willing to allow that there are immutable distinctions (like the distinction between hawks and sheep) that cannot be overcome just by wishing it were so.  The only difference between your position and Sten's position is that Sten thinks those immutable distinctions are somewhat more prevalent than you do.

It's a difference in degree, not in kind.

[urvashi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

urvashi wrote...

I understand perfectly fine, the difference you are making is purely semantics. Sten does not believe a female PC Grey Warden can be a female, because females are not fighters. He doubts what he sees happening before him because it doesn't fit in his rigidly deterministic world view. 
The problem with his rigid determinism is that it can be proved demonstrably wrong. Women in Ferelden are fighters and are leaders. Sheep however, can never be hawks (without some kind of shape change magic, I guess.) 

Sten has already defeated that line of reasoning.  He says that while a farmer can buy a shop, that doesn't turn the farmer into a merchant.  That just makes him a farmer playing at being a merchant.

So, those women you say are fighters or leaders in Ferelden are, in Sten's eyes, simply playing at being fighters or leaders.  What they are hasn't changed.

Neither position can be shown to be more correct than the other.  You prefer yours because you'd rather people be able to choose their paths through life, and so do I, but you're also willing to allow that there are immutable distinctions (like the distinction between hawks and sheep) that cannot be overcome just by wishing it were so.  The only difference between your position and Sten's position is that Sten thinks those immutable distinctions are somewhat more prevalent than you do.

It's a difference in degree, not in kind.

Sheep and hawks are two different species. Farmers and merchants are two different professions. Some societies, like Sten's, make professions a matter of caste rather than choice, but it is a false construct.
Being a species like a sheep or hawk is a matter of DNA, one species can never become another species.
Being a farmer or merchant is not DNA, is a societal role that has to be learned. 
The Qunari may not understand DNA and actually believe a person that isn't born as a merchant but who buys and runs a shop anyway is not in fact a merchant but merely playing as one, but that is just flat out demonstrably wrong.
I can say that rain is the god Ouranos pissing on the earth all I want, it doesn't change the science of precipitation one bit.

[Herr Uhl]

urvashi wrote...

Sheep and hawks are two different species. Farmers and merchants are two different professions. Some societies, like Sten's, make professions a matter of caste rather than choice, but it is a false construct.
Being a species like a sheep or hawk is a matter of DNA, one species can never become another species.
Being a farmer or merchant is not DNA, is a societal role that has to be learned. 
The Qunari may not understand DNA and actually believe a person that isn't born as a merchant but who buys and runs a shop anyway is not in fact a merchant but merely playing as one, but that is just flat out demonstrably wrong.
I can say that rain is the god Ouranos pissing on the earth all I want, it doesn't change the science of precipitation one bit.

They choose who becomes what after how good they would be at the job, not parentage, and they do understand genetics at least. The name that a Qunari has (well, except their profession, which they are called by) is a genetic code of sorts.

[urvashi]

Herr Uhl wrote...

urvashi wrote...

Sheep and hawks are two different species. Farmers and merchants are two different professions. Some societies, like Sten's, make professions a matter of caste rather than choice, but it is a false construct.
Being a species like a sheep or hawk is a matter of DNA, one species can never become another species.
Being a farmer or merchant is not DNA, is a societal role that has to be learned. 
The Qunari may not understand DNA and actually believe a person that isn't born as a merchant but who buys and runs a shop anyway is not in fact a merchant but merely playing as one, but that is just flat out demonstrably wrong.
I can say that rain is the god Ouranos pissing on the earth all I want, it doesn't change the science of precipitation one bit.

They choose who becomes what after how good they would be at the job, not parentage, and they do understand genetics at least. The name that a Qunari has (well, except their profession, which they are called by) is a genetic code of sorts.

A name or title can't really be a genetic code. That's just scientifically inaccurate.
Qunari may choose what a person's role in society is based on skills, then, but any claim that a person is his or her profession in an immutable way and cannot be any other thing is just wrong. A society can disallow people from taking any other role than the one decided for him or her, and it can believe that that predetermined role is somehow immutable, but that does not make it so.
Being a merchant is not an immutable trait, even if someone is really good at it. Being a merchant is something a person does, it is not something a person is. There is no merchant DNA.

[Herr Uhl]

urvashi wrote...

A name or title can't really be a genetic code. That's just scientifically inaccurate.
Qunari may choose what a person's role in society is based on skills, then, but any claim that a person is his or her profession in an immutable way and cannot be any other thing is just wrong. A society can disallow people from taking any other role than the one decided for him or her, and it can believe that that predetermined role is somehow immutable, but that does not make it so.
Being a merchant is not an immutable trait, even if someone is really good at it. Being a merchant is something a person does, it is not something a person is. There is no merchant DNA.

Their names (only used for the selective breeding) is a genetic code of sorts nonetheless. The thing that a Qunari calls their fellow Qunari by is their profession. Sten is a Sten.

They are their profession, they are best utilized by their society as what they are chosen to do, at least that is how they see at it. I have no real interest of going into a philosophical discussion right now, so you will have to excuse me for that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

urvashi wrote...

Sheep and hawks are two different species.

Yes.

Farmers and merchants are two different professions.

Yes.
 
Now, why do you think one distinction matters more than the other?

Being a species like a sheep or hawk is a matter of DNA, one species can never become another species.
Being a farmer or merchant is not DNA, is a societal role that has to be learned. 

But one might be predisposed to one profession over another.  Some people are naturally good at math.  Do you dispute this?

So given that individuals do differ in terms of aptitude, why are you so adamant that one's nature is under one's control?

The Qunari may not understand DNA and actually believe a person that isn't born as a merchant but who buys and runs a shop anyway is not in fact a merchant but merely playing as one, but that is just flat out demonstrably wrong.

You haven't shown that at all.  All you've done is assert it isn't true, but nothing you've said requires that be the case.

You're using a different definition of merchant from Sten.  You think owning a running a shop is what makes someone a merchant.  Sten disagrees.  Being a merchant - according to Sten - has to do with what you are, not what you do.  What you do is irrelevant.

Until you address that, you cannot defeat Sten's position.

I can say that rain is the god Ouranos pissing on the earth all I want, it doesn't change the science of precipitation one bit.

And yet that's exactly what you're trying to do with Sten's worldview.