97 réponses à ce sujet

[WillowCry]

I thought Sten was the best character out of all of them

He's a really interesting character, every time I play I always end up feeling like I want to know more but I can't

Plus I think his party banter was really great, any huge mean looking qunari that can convince you that stealing cookies from a fat child is morally acceptable is OK by me





Everyone keeps complaining that sten was "mean" or complained to much

but I prefer to think of his as a lawful neutral XD

[urvashi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

urvashi wrote...

Sheep and hawks are two different species.

Yes.

Farmers and merchants are two different professions.

Yes.
 
Now, why do you think one distinction matters more than the other?

Being a species like a sheep or hawk is a matter of DNA, one species can never become another species.
Being a farmer or merchant is not DNA, is a societal role that has to be learned. 

But one might be predisposed to one profession over another.  Some people are naturally good at math.  Do you dispute this?

So given that individuals do differ in terms of aptitude, why are you so adamant that one's nature is under one's control?

The Qunari may not understand DNA and actually believe a person that isn't born as a merchant but who buys and runs a shop anyway is not in fact a merchant but merely playing as one, but that is just flat out demonstrably wrong.

You haven't shown that at all.  All you've done is assert it isn't true, but nothing you've said requires that be the case.

You're using a different definition of merchant from Sten.  You think owning a running a shop is what makes someone a merchant.  Sten disagrees.  Being a merchant - according to Sten - has to do with what you are, not what you do.  What you do is irrelevant.

Until you address that, you cannot defeat Sten's position.

I can say that rain is the god Ouranos pissing on the earth all I want, it doesn't change the science of precipitation one bit.

And yet that's exactly what you're trying to do with Sten's worldview.

Yes, individuals do differ in terms of aptitude, and might be predisposed to one profession over another. If you have a natural talent for math, you might choose to become an accountant, and excel at it. Or you could have a natural talent for math but your mother wants you to be a lawyer and you choose that profession. Or, you may have a natural talent for math, but you live in a society with a strict caste system, and you were born in the farmer caste so you become a farmer.  There is nothing in a natural talent or predisposition that actually makes you follow a profession that fits it, or that precludes you from engaging in and even excelling at a different profession. Or you may actually fail at being a farmer or lawyer if you don't have the natural aptitude for it, but failing at those professions would not actually make you an accountant. no matter how good you might have been at if you studied accounting.

However, if you are a hawk, you may be a lousy predator or a good one, but you are still a hawk as a matter of your DNA, and you cannot ever be another species of animal.

Sten's argument that you are whatever your profession is semantic. We do in English use the verb 'to be' to describe our professions, and that confuses the issue. I am an accountant rather than I practice the profession of accounting. But beyond a natural predisposition that might lead one to choose accounting as a profession (the same disposition for math that might lead one to choose banking or engineering instead), there is nothing inborn about professions, which are entirely created by society. A society may impose a certain role on individual based on birth or natural dispositions, but nothing in nature will make a person follow a particular path even if they have a talent for it.

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I like how he challenges my leadership unlike Allistair. The thing I don't like about him though is he is all talk and no action. He is probably the weakest character in the game, yet he goes around like he's the strongest. I like Oghren better than Sten.

[Derengard]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...The thing I don't like about him though is he is all talk and no action. He is probably the weakest character in the game, yet he goes around like he's the strongest. I like Oghren better than Sten.

Yet, Oghren is not a bit stronger, unless you made it so. All this "Sten is weak" is really strange, since it all depends on your gear, talents and tactics.

[Mary Kirby]

urvashi wrote...

The difference between misogyny and sexism is that misogyny is a hatred of and hostility toward women. Sexism is a belief that women are lesser than men, are only fit for more menial roles in society. My calling Sten & the Qunari sexist is based on the fact that the roles he gives as suitable for women are in most cultures I've encountered considered less important while the roles he says are for males only are the more prominent and important roles.

Er... technically, he never states what the roles of men are in Qunari society beyond being soldiers.

He lists the roles of women as farmers, artisans, merchants, and priests.  Qunari society is ultimately ruled by the Tamassran priesthood -- they determine the roles of all other Qunari.  I'm not sure where you guys keep getting the idea that he says women aren't leaders.  He only says that women aren't warriors.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Mary Kirby wrote...

urvashi wrote...

The difference between misogyny and sexism is that misogyny is a hatred of and hostility toward women. Sexism is a belief that women are lesser than men, are only fit for more menial roles in society. My calling Sten & the Qunari sexist is based on the fact that the roles he gives as suitable for women are in most cultures I've encountered considered less important while the roles he says are for males only are the more prominent and important roles.

Er... technically, he never states what the roles of men are in Qunari society beyond being soldiers.

He lists the roles of women as farmers, artisans, merchants, and priests.  Qunari society is ultimately ruled by the Tamassran priesthood -- they determine the roles of all other Qunari.  I'm not sure where you guys keep getting the idea that he says women aren't leaders.  He only says that women aren't warriors.

I'm not sure why you expect people to actually pay attention and then converse rationally without jumping to wild and unwarranted conclusions. 

In all serious though, I never found Sten to be 'classically' sexist at all.   Sure, I suppose assigning roles based on gender is technically sexist, but it isn't like he is demeaning women in any way.  From what I have seen in the game (feel free to correct me if there is something I missed), the Qunari prefer heavy armour and heavy weapons, both of which require incredible strength to use effectively.  There basic anatomical and biological differences that make men able to develop, sustain and use more muscle mass than women.  That is science, not sexism. Very few people in modern times use anywhere near the full potential of the human body, but warriors from a society like that of the Qunari must always be pushing

Add to that the fact that women are the child bearers and it makes sense for a warrior society to prevent women from becoming warriors.   Quite frankly, they can be more useful to society by raising children, being priests and tending to crops than they can by by being a half-assed fighter.

People impose modern norms on medieval societies without considering the societal differences, then paste large, all-encompassing labels over that society without considering the reasons traditions are formed.

[Sylvius the Mad]

urvashi wrote...

Sten's argument that you are whatever your profession is semantic.

Again, you've misstated Sten's position.

He doesn't hold that you are whatever your profession is.  He holds that your profession should (a normative claim) be match whatever you are.

A society may impose a certain role on individual based on birth or natural dispositions, but nothing in nature will make a person follow a particular path even if they have a talent for it.

While that's true, that's irrelevant to Sten's point.  He is separating what people are from what they do.

[spottyblanket]

I don't actullay think Sten is mean, he is just different. He thinks and acts differently to what you expect. But he always means what he says. He thinks in a very pragmatic way.

[spottyblanket]

I don't actullay think Sten is mean, he is just different. He thinks and acts differently to what you expect. But he always means what he says. He thinks in a very pragmatic way.

[spottyblanket]

Oh triple post! Embrassing!

Also, we don't know what Quanri women look like. Maybe the reason they are not regarded as fighters is because they aren't built like the men. Quarni seem to be the battering rams.

Modifié par spottyblanket, 07 mars 2010 - 08:40 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

spottyblanket wrote...

Oh triple post! Embrassing!

Also, we don't know what Quanri women look like. Maybe the reason they are not regarded as fighters is because they aren't built like the men. Quarni seem to be the battering rams.

Sexual dimorphism.  I hadn't thought of that.

[the_one_54321]

I'm sure most of us have at least met a guy that is the size of a Qunari. If you put a small-normal sized woman next to a guy that big, and then you make the assumption that all men are that big, and all women are that small, it becomes much easier to see why they would insist that only men be warriors.



Also consider the conversation he has with Morrigan, when he states plainly that it has yet to be seen if she is even really a woman or not.

[roundcrow]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I'm sure most of us have at least met a guy that is the size of a Qunari. If you put a small-normal sized woman next to a guy that big, and then you make the assumption that all men are that big, and all women are that small, it becomes much easier to see why they would insist that only men be warriors.

 

If you think of war as something done with heavy armor and large swords, perhaps.  

[thegreateski]

I like him because he doesn't blindly follow my lead . . . you know . . . like everyone else in my group.

[thegreateski]

roundcrow wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

I'm sure most of us have at least met a guy that is the size of a Qunari. If you put a small-normal sized woman next to a guy that big, and then you make the assumption that all men are that big, and all women are that small, it becomes much easier to see why they would insist that only men be warriors.

 

If you think of war as something done with heavy armor and large swords, perhaps.  

Well . . . yeah.

If you aint got those two things it becomes a firefight (literally in some cases) instead of a war.

[the_one_54321]

roundcrow wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I'm sure most of us have at least met a guy that is the size of a Qunari. If you put a small-normal sized woman next to a guy that big, and then you make the assumption that all men are that big, and all women are that small, it becomes much easier to see why they would insist that only men be warriors.

If you think of war as something done with heavy armor and large swords, perhaps.

Well yeah, since at least 50% of the warfare in this game is done with heavy armor and swords...

[Herr Uhl]

spottyblanket wrote...

Also, we don't know what Quanri women look like. Maybe the reason they are not regarded as fighters is because they aren't built like the men. Quarni seem to be the battering rams.

This is what I think is correct. Though we have no further description of them than that they differ in appearance from the males. Those silly humans, thinking that females and males looked exactly alike.

[BladeHawk979]

I never even used him because he doesn't start out with any equipment and I was too selfish to spend any gold XD

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

BladeHawk979 wrote...

I never even used him because he doesn't start out with any equipment and I was too selfish to spend any gold XD

  
 
That's half the fun of Sten is finding him the right equipment.  There's plenty of heavy armor to be found without having to spend a single bit on him, however while in camp I canabalize equipment from other npcs.  If I leave Alistair naked back at camp it doesn't bother me. It's easy to switch it back.

[ZaDonKilluminati]

Sten the best character?



No

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

ZaDonKilluminati wrote...

Sten the best character?

No

  
 
Of course he can't be the best character because they admittedly did not write him in extensively as Alistair, Morrigan, Lelian or even Zevran.  However, there is some very interesting dialogue between Morrigan and Sten, she's kinda hot on him (probably because of his stoical nature, Alistair obviously annoys her (and ME)).

Modifié par AnnaBananaBamBamBoo, 10 mars 2010 - 03:07 .

[AnnaBananaBamBamBoo]

urvashi wrote...

---  SNIP---
Yes, individuals do differ in terms of aptitude, and might be predisposed to one profession over another. If you have a natural talent for math, you might choose to become an accountant, and excel at it. Or you could have a natural talent for math but your mother wants you to be a lawyer and you choose that profession. Or, you may have a natural talent for math, but you live in a society with a strict caste system, and you were born in the farmer caste so you become a farmer.  There is nothing in a natural talent or predisposition that actually makes you follow a profession that fits it, or that precludes you from engaging in and even excelling at a different profession. Or you may actually fail at being a farmer or lawyer if you don't have the natural aptitude for it, but failing at those professions would not actually make you an accountant. no matter how good you might have been at if you studied accounting.

However, if you are a hawk, you may be a lousy predator or a good one, but you are still a hawk as a matter of your DNA, and you cannot ever be another species of animal.

Sten's argument that you are whatever your profession is semantic. We do in English use the verb 'to be' to describe our professions, and that confuses the issue. I am an accountant rather than I practice the profession of accounting. But beyond a natural predisposition that might lead one to choose accounting as a profession (the same disposition for math that might lead one to choose banking or engineering instead), there is nothing inborn about professions, which are entirely created by society. A society may impose a certain role on individual based on birth or natural dispositions, but nothing in nature will make a person follow a particular path even if they have a talent for it.

  
Math is a tool created by man which yields certain inalienable truths about the universe.  Efforts by individuals such as Pthagoras, Sir Isaac Newton, Einstein are what has advanced the field, not society.  Can you actually name each of these great men's professions?  When society's not involved and individuals are, new heights are reached because of an individual's persistence and struggle against society to prove their theories; society seems more of a hinderance than a proponent. Aptitudes are learned not intrinsic.  I got C's all the way through high school in math, why?  Motivation, I had no real reason at the time to excel in it.  Later after getting married and having a son, I had a real motivation to better myself so I went to night school and eventually a full fledged university to get a computer science degree ****** laude.  This thing called "aptitude" is erroneous implying it's intrinsic.  So I have to disagree there are things in nature which will make a person follow a particular path, in my case it was a newborn baby boy.  With a motivation for math, engineering and computer science were the careers I aspired to.  Accounting math is tedious and lengthy and boring to me.  Some would say all math is boring, but to me quite untrue when dealing with algorithms that are used for a commercial jet's flight controls, guidance laws, predictions; or a rocket's trajectory and thrust; or beams to and from a satellite; that's exciting!  Again it's personal preference but lets not confuse "profession" with "job title."  Professions include doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants, actors etc.  A true professional is a person that has taken on the responsibility of becoming that role of a doctor, lawyer, engineer; much like role-playing.  A person with a job title works 9 to 5 and picks up a check and puts their everyday job behind them when they go home.  Since a professional is immersed in their field, they CAN'T leave it alone and become obsessed with it and BECOME it (thank God or Sir Isaac Newton would never have written the Principia which took the Age Of Reason to new heights and society would have suffered), they're continually working on it, even at home.  This is what Sten is alluding to, he's saying he's a professional not some big lug with a job title.