171 réponses à ce sujet

[Gordo Schumway]

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Here's an idea (maybe not a great one): When the third one comes out Bioware could issue a special uber-super-duper collectors edition that packages all three installments along with the downloadable content from all three games and additional artwork. That way the company could cash in big time on newbies and I'm sure a few completionists would fork out the money just to have the "ultimate edition".

They shouldn't have to pay any extra money to enjoy Mass Effect 3. They may not get the full experience, but there's no reason  why they shouldn't be able to enjoy ME:3 as is. You shouldn't punish players for not being the previous two games.
However, as a bundle deal, this is a pretty good idea. People will buy it.

Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

I guess I was more responding to the OP's first few paragraphs. I don't think ME2 sacrificed anything for newbies at all. It might have repeated a few details covered in the first one (repeated codex entries) but that takes up little space and it was kind of nice to have it just to refresh my memory.

[marshalleck]

Neo Hex Omega wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Someday someone actually will create an interwoven trilogy of games that works on a deeper level than much of the superficiality of Mass Effect, and this trilogy will exist in its shadow.

My hope is that Mass Effect 3 will at least pave the way for such an event. Bioware has the talent, it's just a matter of execution.

Hell, even just the potential of the Mass Effect trilogy alone, in spite of the execution thus far, has inspired my own desire to enter the game design world. I'd like to think that one day I could be part of helping to actually make deep, interactive stories, instead of just selling the final product.

Well I would certainly agree that Bioware aren't limited by a lack of vision or talent. They can afford some of the top talent in the industry. Personally I think they're limited more by technology. Creation of art assets, animation, cinematography etc. is still so labor intensive. In another 10 or 15 years, rendering life-like virtual actors may be a much more streamlined process with a much higher level of intrinsic fidelity. Current limitations have a constricting effect on the degree to which the narrative paths can diverge. Even if you could budget millions upon millions of dollars to the project and a development team of hundreds, you'd end up with a game comprising so much data that it would take up a stack of blu-ray discs.

[pacer90]

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Here's an idea (maybe not a great one): When the third one comes out Bioware could issue a special uber-super-duper collectors edition that packages all three installments along with the downloadable content from all three games and additional artwork. That way the company could cash in big time on newbies and I'm sure a few completionists would fork out the money just to have the "ultimate edition".

They shouldn't have to pay any extra money to enjoy Mass Effect 3. They may not get the full experience, but there's no reason  why they shouldn't be able to enjoy ME:3 as is. You shouldn't punish players for not being the previous two games.
However, as a bundle deal, this is a pretty good idea. People will buy it.

Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

They talk about choice, consequence and meaning they're essentially what makes Mass Effect. People being pissed off at ME1 LI's, going nuts that they can finally romance Tali, HATINGG HATE HATE LASDKGJASDG'ing the Turian Councilor.


People who didn't play the first one get none of that, because they didn't experience it. It's your universe, not Halo 1, 2, 3.

[superimposed]

Lawl.

Was there a point made in that at all? Or have you not been reading any of what's been written.

[Gordo Schumway]

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Here's an idea (maybe not a great one): When the third one comes out Bioware could issue a special uber-super-duper collectors edition that packages all three installments along with the downloadable content from all three games and additional artwork. That way the company could cash in big time on newbies and I'm sure a few completionists would fork out the money just to have the "ultimate edition".

They shouldn't have to pay any extra money to enjoy Mass Effect 3. They may not get the full experience, but there's no reason  why they shouldn't be able to enjoy ME:3 as is. You shouldn't punish players for not being the previous two games.
However, as a bundle deal, this is a pretty good idea. People will buy it.

Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

Plus, you aren't really getting the "full experience" if you are relying on another person's experience.

[skyferret]

Neo Hex Omega wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Someday someone actually will create an interwoven trilogy of games that works on a deeper level than much of the superficiality of Mass Effect, and this trilogy will exist in its shadow.

My hope is that Mass Effect 3 will at least pave the way for such an event. Bioware has the talent, it's just a matter of execution.

Hell, even just the potential of the Mass Effect trilogy alone, in spite of the execution thus far, has inspired my own desire to enter the game design world. I'd like to think that one day I could be part of helping to actually make deep, interactive stories, instead of just selling the final product.

qft, to both quotes.

[AntiChri5]

@supirimposed: Are you missing the part where this is a trilogy?

[superimposed]

Gordo Schumway wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Here's an idea (maybe not a great one): When the third one comes out Bioware could issue a special uber-super-duper collectors edition that packages all three installments along with the downloadable content from all three games and additional artwork. That way the company could cash in big time on newbies and I'm sure a few completionists would fork out the money just to have the "ultimate edition".

They shouldn't have to pay any extra money to enjoy Mass Effect 3. They may not get the full experience, but there's no reason  why they shouldn't be able to enjoy ME:3 as is. You shouldn't punish players for not being the previous two games.
However, as a bundle deal, this is a pretty good idea. People will buy it.

Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

Plus, you aren't really getting the "full experience" if you are relying on another person's experience.

Wrong again. You do get the full experience of Mass Effect 2 using someone else's saves. You download them, and you get to see all the different changes made by the consequences and decisions of the first game.
That's the full experience of the game.

If you want the 'full experience' of the trilogy you have to play through them all, but there's no reason you should have to in order to enjoy ME:3.

The OP isn't talking about making ME:3 special for people who've played the previous two, he's talking about making it SPECIALLY for people who've played the previous two, and telling everyone else they don't deserve to play it.

[AntiChri5]

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Here's an idea (maybe not a great one): When the third one comes out Bioware could issue a special uber-super-duper collectors edition that packages all three installments along with the downloadable content from all three games and additional artwork. That way the company could cash in big time on newbies and I'm sure a few completionists would fork out the money just to have the "ultimate edition".

They shouldn't have to pay any extra money to enjoy Mass Effect 3. They may not get the full experience, but there's no reason  why they shouldn't be able to enjoy ME:3 as is. You shouldn't punish players for not being the previous two games.
However, as a bundle deal, this is a pretty good idea. People will buy it.

Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

Plus, you aren't really getting the "full experience" if you are relying on another person's experience.

Wrong again. You do get the full experience of Mass Effect 2 using someone else's saves. You download them, and you get to see all the different changes made by the consequences and decisions of the first game.
That's the full experience of the game.

If you want the 'full experience' of the trilogy you have to play through them all, but there's no reason you should have to in order to enjoy ME:3.

The OP isn't talking about making ME:3 special for people who've played the previous two, he's talking about making it SPECIALLY for people who've played the previous two, and telling everyone else they don't deserve to play it.

Why do you want to destroy the only trilogy to explore methods of storytelling unique to games?

[Notho]

I agree. At best, new players who are aware that this is a trilogy should get a quick summary in the into at best. I was talking to a friend of mine who was thinking of trying ME2 without playing the first one. I told him he's enjoy ME2 more if he played ME1 first.

[marshalleck]

superimposed wrote...
If you want the 'full experience' of the trilogy you have to play through them all, but there's no reason you should have to in order to enjoy ME:3.

The OP isn't talking about making ME:3 special for people who've played the previous two, he's talking about making it SPECIALLY for people who've played the previous two, and telling everyone else they don't deserve to play it.

You know, SyFy tried to do this with Battlestar Galactica in the third season. They pushed for more self-contained episodes, less continuity, less focus on story arc resolution. Ratings subsequently declined. If the content is strong, the audience will feel compelled to go back and start at the beginning.

[SmokePants]

Standalone. Standalone. Standalone. Many a trilogy has been ruined by excessive continuity and cliffhangers and other overcomplication and BSery. Matrix 1 -- standalone greatness. Matrix 2-3 - interdependent garbage.

[Zulu_DFA]

Cool story. Really cool.

I guess it makes the case of the big choices to really matter all the more possible.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 mars 2010 - 03:03 .

[marshalleck]

SmokePants wrote...

Standalone. Standalone. Standalone. Many a trilogy has been ruined by excessive continuity and cliffhangers and other overcomplication and BSery. Matrix 1 -- standalone greatness. Matrix 2-3 - interdependent garbage.

Matrix is a poor example. It was a stand-alone film that got shoe-horned into trilogy format. Before Mass Effect was ever released, Bioware were stating their plans to use the IP for a trilogy.

[superimposed]

Why do you want to destroy the only trilogy to explore methods of storytelling unique to games?

lawl. Not only is that not dramatic, it's also false.



Half-life, Half-life 2, Half-life Episode 1, Half-life Episode 2, Half-life Episode 3. All games where the story is interlinked between each and every game.

Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 - Choices and consequences in a heavily story-driven game.



Mass Effect merely 'transfers'. It's not unique, merely adapted.

Secondly, making ME:3 enjoyable for new players won't "ruin it" unless you've got serious mother issues.

[superimposed]

marshalleck wrote...

superimposed wrote...
If you want the 'full experience' of the trilogy you have to play through them all, but there's no reason you should have to in order to enjoy ME:3.

The OP isn't talking about making ME:3 special for people who've played the previous two, he's talking about making it SPECIALLY for people who've played the previous two, and telling everyone else they don't deserve to play it.

You know, SyFy tried to do this with Battlestar Galactica in the third season. They pushed for more self-contained episodes, less continuity, less focus on story arc resolution. Ratings subsequently declined. If the content is strong, the audience will feel compelled to go back and start at the beginning.

It's a television series, not a game. A television show relies entirely on story.

[Gordo Schumway]

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Here's an idea (maybe not a great one): When the third one comes out Bioware could issue a special uber-super-duper collectors edition that packages all three installments along with the downloadable content from all three games and additional artwork. That way the company could cash in big time on newbies and I'm sure a few completionists would fork out the money just to have the "ultimate edition".

They shouldn't have to pay any extra money to enjoy Mass Effect 3. They may not get the full experience, but there's no reason  why they shouldn't be able to enjoy ME:3 as is. You shouldn't punish players for not being the previous two games.
However, as a bundle deal, this is a pretty good idea. People will buy it.

Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

Plus, you aren't really getting the "full experience" if you are relying on another person's experience.

Wrong again. You do get the full experience of Mass Effect 2 using someone else's saves. You download them, and you get to see all the different changes made by the consequences and decisions of the first game.
That's the full experience of the game.

If you want the 'full experience' of the trilogy you have to play through them all, but there's no reason you should have to in order to enjoy ME:3.

The OP isn't talking about making ME:3 special for people who've played the previous two, he's talking about making it SPECIALLY for people who've played the previous two, and telling everyone else they don't deserve to play it.

Your second paragraph contradicts your first. I do, however, agree with the basic premise of your third paragraph. Anybody who wants to should be able to play the games. If they choose not to play the first two, so be it. If it is just a matter of getting the various alternative plotlines, they probably are into the the games enough to have played the first two. If they have not played the first two, they probably don't care all that much about the divergent plots in the first place, so they will be satisfied with whatever the third has to offer.

[AntiChri5]

superimposed wrote...

Why do you want to destroy the only trilogy to explore methods of storytelling unique to games?

lawl. Not only is that not dramatic, it's also false.

Half-life, Half-life 2, Half-life Episode 1, Half-life Episode 2, Half-life Episode 3. All games where the story is interlinked between each and every game.
Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 - Choices and consequences in a heavily story-driven game.

Mass Effect merely 'transfers'. It's not unique, merely adapted.
Secondly, making ME:3 enjoyable for new players won't "ruin it" unless you've got serious mother issues.

Did you miss the part where i said trilogy? Besides, how many choices do you make in Half Life?

The focus for any third installment in a trilogy should NEVER be pulling new fans in, that completely misses the point of a trilogy. Anyone who picks up the third book in a trilogy, watches the third movie in a trilogy, watches the third season of a tv show should bloody well not be surprised if they are lost and confused. If they expect an experience tailored to them then they have a rediculous sense of entitlement.

Bringing up my mother? really? I always see remarks like that as an indication that you have no way to make a point..

[superimposed]

Unless, like the OP, you want to specifically punish them by making a 'fresh start' unrewarding, and designed specifically to turn them away.



No, really, that's a brilliant suggestion.



Also, my paragraphs do not contradict each other. The experience of a game is self-contained, the experience of a story is spread out. ME:3 is a game with a story, to enjoy ME;3's story should require nothing but ME:3 and a platform on which to play it. To enjoy the complete Mass Effect story you will need to see a lot of it for yourself.

[superimposed]

AntiChri5 wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Why do you want to destroy the only trilogy to explore methods of storytelling unique to games?

lawl. Not only is that not dramatic, it's also false.

Half-life, Half-life 2, Half-life Episode 1, Half-life Episode 2, Half-life Episode 3. All games where the story is interlinked between each and every game.
Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 - Choices and consequences in a heavily story-driven game.

Mass Effect merely 'transfers'. It's not unique, merely adapted.
Secondly, making ME:3 enjoyable for new players won't "ruin it" unless you've got serious mother issues.

Did you miss the part where i said trilogy? Besides, how many choices do you make in Half Life?

The focus for any third installment in a trilogy should NEVER be pulling new fans in, that completely misses the point of a trilogy. Anyone who picks up the third book in a trilogy, watches the third movie in a trilogy, watches the third season of a tv show should bloody well not be surprised if they are lost and confused. If they expect an experience tailored to them then they have a rediculous sense of entitlement.

Bringing up my mother? really? I always see remarks like that as an indication that you have no way to make a point..

When you make a point I'll respond to it. Until then keep flailing your arms and claiming it will be 'destroyed' because they've made it accessible to new players.

[Charsen]

I honestly think that if people can't be bothered to play the first two, then include a link to the wiki or a summary of the first two games and some standard definitions. Or maaaaybe have a montage of what happened previously, in general terms. If they have a saved character, incorporate some of their old choices, if not, go with the standard stuff. Some people need a reminder since they might not have played recently, but man, not the hand-holding.



I budgeted my time around work, social life, etc, to play ME1 again right before ME2 came out. And you better believe that i will be playing ME1 and ME2 right before ME3 comes out. If they think it's a punishment to play ME1 and ME2 before ME3 then they're not going to really care about the game series anyway. It's not like Fallout or something where the original games were really old - ME1 will still be a very acceptable game when ME3 comes out.

[AntiChri5]

superimposed wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Why do you want to destroy the only trilogy to explore methods of storytelling unique to games?

lawl. Not only is that not dramatic, it's also false.

Half-life, Half-life 2, Half-life Episode 1, Half-life Episode 2, Half-life Episode 3. All games where the story is interlinked between each and every game.
Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 - Choices and consequences in a heavily story-driven game.

Mass Effect merely 'transfers'. It's not unique, merely adapted.
Secondly, making ME:3 enjoyable for new players won't "ruin it" unless you've got serious mother issues.

Did you miss the part where i said trilogy? Besides, how many choices do you make in Half Life?

The focus for any third installment in a trilogy should NEVER be pulling new fans in, that completely misses the point of a trilogy. Anyone who picks up the third book in a trilogy, watches the third movie in a trilogy, watches the third season of a tv show should bloody well not be surprised if they are lost and confused. If they expect an experience tailored to them then they have a rediculous sense of entitlement.

Bringing up my mother? really? I always see remarks like that as an indication that you have no way to make a point..

When you make a point I'll respond to it. Until then keep flailing your arms and claiming it will be 'destroyed' because they've made it accessible to new players.

I did make a point, if you cant be bothered to see it that isnt my fault. Your post is a very obvious way to get out of replying when you cant defend what you have said.

[marshalleck]

superimposed wrote...

Unless, like the OP, you want to specifically punish them by making a 'fresh start' unrewarding, and designed specifically to turn them away.

No, really, that's a brilliant suggestion.

You're making a strawman argument. OP never said the game should be specifically designed to force new people away. The argument proposed was to simply not pull any punches or dumb things down for newbs at the expense of those who have been around and care about the story. I wouldn't characterize that approach as punishment of new players, but if someone does perceive it as punishment, then I say so what? The story of the trilogy would be stronger for it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 mars 2010 - 03:25 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

I agree, I think they should force players to buy ME1 if they want to understand ME2. Lets hope that they do it with ME3. Although this may scare customers away and that's not always good for BioWare. I'd say it's good for us since it would keep shooter fans away from the franchise. I'm also pretty sure that most of the people who bought ME2 played ME1. I have not seen a lot of newbs or shooter fans or whatever. The main customer is still the RPG fan not the shooter fan IMO.

[Ramikadyc]

I absolutely agree with you, OP. The save import feature is my favorite part about Mass Effect 2, and it should absolutely be hugely expanded in the Mass Effect 3. However, I feel like it is being implied that having a very in-depth save importing feature would somehow turn off newcomers to the series. I have to disagree with that. There are numerous ways BioWare can adapt the game to make sure the newbies get their background story (how about a "Previously on Mass Effect..." option?), and these methods can be implemented right alongside with the import feature--just as each conversation has multiple responses, each situation in which players run into people or places or whatever from previous titles can have multiple meanings to both newbs and vets. It seems like the contrary is being assumed here, as if it is black and white--cop out and streamline for new players, or go all out and create a convoluted story for them. It doesn't have to be like that at all.



That being said, I have no sympathy for the people who jump into a sequel and complain about not knowing what's happening. Mass Effect is a trilogy, like Star Wars was a trilogy, and people didn't walk into Return of the Jedi and complain about how bad the movie was because they had no idea what was going on. There's no excuse for the developers not to reward the fans.