171 réponses à ce sujet

[R34P3RR3D33M3R]

I agree with the OP.

[Gordo Schumway]

Return of the Jedi was a pretty good film on its own. If you see the first two it is great. How long does it spend rehashing old details? One minute in the yellow scroll at the begining.

[Ramikadyc]

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Return of the Jedi was a pretty good film on its own. If you see the first two it is great. How long does it spend rehashing old details? One minute in the yellow scroll at the begining.

Precisely. They dedicated the first half hour of the movie to a follow up of events from the previous installment. They could have just started the movie with the whole crew sitting in a bar discussing the new Death Star, and at the end they all could have been like, "oh yeah, remember when we rescued Han on Tatooine and totally escaped death by Sarlacc? Yeah, that was awesome," and moved on to current events, so as not to confused the two people in the audience who had no idea who Boba Fett was. It just wasn't necessary, and it's not necessary to cop out like that in Mass Effect 3, in any capacity.

[ChampDude]

Very well put OP. Your insight is duly noted

[Apollo Starflare]

I can understand Bioware's decisions in regards to ME2. I mean the sales speak for themselves, they have successfully brought in new players to the franchise, to what exent new players would have bought the game anyway had it been more reliant on ME1 we will never know.



That said I do agree with the OP that the opportunity is there to make it more like a film or novel trilogy, where you are expected to have read the previous installment. It's been proven time and again more customers are willing to go in for the 'long haul' in regards to things like this than analysts predict and I think it would be the same here.



The Mass Effect franchise is definitely bigger than the Shepard trilogy at this point (should Bioware choose to evolve it that far), and I honestly see no reason why such a pioneering and talented dev team couldn't go all out to make the transfer system between 2 and 3 a truly stand out feature, then bringing in more customers with future products. At this point ME3 is set to sell rediculous amounts no matter what they do, so why not reward those fans who have followed it from the start?

[Ghostano]

The only trick to bring in new players is do you bring in more then you lose. Does not matter if you bring in new players if you lose the same number of orginal players. If this was not suppose to be a trilogy telling Shapard's story I would say focusing so much on new squadmates in the second one would be great. I keep hearing they wanted it to be more liek empire strikes back sorry did not work. The darkness from that movie game from the fact things were not going there way and they kept loseing. Not because Han and liea were makeing out in the engine room of the falcon. Haveing Shapard loseing someone close or even haveing the Normandy getting blown up at the end instead of the beginning would give you the feeling of things may not turn out well.





We already know Shapard is a great leader from his origin combined with what he does in the first ME. I think if it was done like the dragon age series maybe it would have been easier to just focus on your choices I do not know. Maybe part of the problem is they stop seeing it as a trilogy and nothing more then a franchise. Who cares if we lose players between 1 and 2 the franchise will live on. After all look at star wars they have more bad games made on that IP then good and poeple keep buying them just because it has star wars on it.





Useing it is a trilogy is really the lazy way out but in the end it does not matter. For everyone else the game is perfect. For me it is not I kept playing the first one up till Dragon Age came out last year. ME2 I beat it and I tired to play more just not working. A DLC with a tank that does not fit into the story just does not get me excited and the free shotgun was no use to me since I never used it even though I beat the game with a vanguard.



I will say I do not like the new direaction but Bioware better stick with it. Even if I have no desire to play ME3 right now I do not think another change in the way the game plays is smart. It will do more damage to the franchise then anything else minusthe damage to there rep (Bioware).



OK I ranted and made no sense feel free to ignore me I was manily just killing time till my pain meds kick in.

[wako58]

Neo Hex Omega wrote...

superimposed wrote...


Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

Great, one step away from pirating the game. Why not download saves for every game so we never have to play them? It's for that reason(among other things) that I believe the save import should go beyond a few flagged choices in a saved game file.

How someone chooses to enjoy or ruin (in my opinion) their game is up to them.  I oppose any one shoe fits all approach in how save games choices are flagged and kept.  I pre-ordered and enjoyed ME1 and ME2.  I will do the same with ME3.  Bioware consistently puts out products that are worthy of my time and money.  I want to play through them on my own and make my own choices not some pre-played game choices.  If someone wants to do that then fine.  It doesn't impact my enjoyment of the game one iota.

[Terraneaux]

From a business perspective, maybe if they make it seem like you're missing something by not playing the earlier games, people will go back and buy them. That would be good for Bioware, right?

[-Skorpious-]

The logic in this thread makes my head hurt.

[superimposed]

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Return of the Jedi was a pretty good film on its own. If you see the first two it is great. How long does it spend rehashing old details? One minute in the yellow scroll at the begining.

They don't have to rehash old details in epic-hour long cutscenes at all.

Codex entries, flash backs etc.


"A New Hope" told you who were the bad guys and who were the good guys, who was in power and who were the rebels all in it's opening shot.
The Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi all told the complete history in a smiliar way, through progressing through the main story. They did rehash everything, you just didn't notice it.

There's no reason Mass Effect can't do similar things. What it shouldn't do is tell people picking up a Mass Effect game for the first time:
"Spend more money on our earlier products! Money money money! Or don't play because we don't like you."
Again, your arguments are nonsense at best.

[Terraneaux]

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Return of the Jedi was a pretty good film on its own. If you see the first two it is great. How long does it spend rehashing old details? One minute in the yellow scroll at the begining.

They don't have to rehash old details in epic-hour long cutscenes at all.

Codex entries, flash backs etc.


"A New Hope" told you who were the bad guys and who were the good guys, who was in power and who were the rebels all in it's opening shot.
The Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi all told the complete history in a smiliar way, through progressing through the main story. They did rehash everything, you just didn't notice it.

There's no reason Mass Effect can't do similar things. What it shouldn't do is tell people picking up a Mass Effect game for the first time:
"Spend more money on our earlier products! Money money money! Or don't play because we don't like you."
Again, your arguments are nonsense at best.

Nobody's saying that's what ME3 should be like.  You're strawmanning pretty hard here.  I think the OP's head is screwed on straight; players have an emotional investment in the series (and a financial one; I know I bought a 360 just to play ME1) and want to see it pay off.

EDIT: Plus, if the sequel encourages people to buy the earlier games (note 'encourages,' not forces; you can play ME2 without playing ME1 and enjoy it just fine, but if you liked it you know you can get some enjoyment buy playing the prequel) that's free money for Bioware since ME1 is already paid for - it's all gravy at this point.

Modifié par Terraneaux, 04 mars 2010 - 05:51 .

[Gordo Schumway]

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Return of the Jedi was a pretty good film on its own. If you see the first two it is great. How long does it spend rehashing old details? One minute in the yellow scroll at the begining.

They don't have to rehash old details in epic-hour long cutscenes at all.

Codex entries, flash backs etc.


"A New Hope" told you who were the bad guys and who were the good guys, who was in power and who were the rebels all in it's opening shot.
The Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi all told the complete history in a smiliar way, through progressing through the main story. They did rehash everything, you just didn't notice it.

There's no reason Mass Effect can't do similar things. What it shouldn't do is tell people picking up a Mass Effect game for the first time:
"Spend more money on our earlier products! Money money money! Or don't play because we don't like you."
Again, your arguments are nonsense at best.

Of course they want to make money, they are a company (and a damn fine one) and they have every right to make as much as they can. The best way to do that? Make the best quality game they can. I am not saying get rid of the codex, in fact, if you had read one of my earlier posts here you would have noticed that I embraced it specifically. I am not saying that people who never played the first two games should be forced to in order to play the third. I am merely suggesting that Bioware should not focus their attention on trying to gain new players at the expense of story fluidity. I think that would lead to a lesser quality game. This is my opinion about what I think would be the best approach; you certainly may disagree with that.

Please do not make baseless assumptions about what I did or did not notice in regards to certain film. I am a film professor at a university. The plots to the original Star Wars films certainly did not "rehash everything." They made allusions to previous events throughout for coherence sake (as ME3 will), as any multi-installment story arc does, but to call this "rehash[ing] everything" is a gross simplification.

In regards to my arguments being nonsense at best: judging by the other posters' comments on this board, your arguments are less than convincing. In fact, you aren't really arguing with anybody posting here. You are putting words in people's mouths and then disagreeing with those words. Essentially then, you are disagreeing with yourself and you can't even win that disagreement.

Modifié par Gordo Schumway, 04 mars 2010 - 07:37 .

[HTTP 404]

Neo Hex Omega wrote...

Alright, I work at a video game retailer, so I get to see spending trends on video games firsthand. While I understand there is variation from region to region, I can make some fairly accurate generalizations. I hope someone at Bioware gets to read this, because a big part of my job is talking up games like Mass Effect.

While I think the save import feature from ME1 to ME2 is great, I also feel it is a missed opportunity. Many times here at the forums I have come across statements to the effect of, 'Why should Bioware punish people who did not play ME1?" I say, why not? My store, and all others in entire district, have sold as many copies of ME1 as the sequel since ME2 launched, largely based on word of mouth on the save import feature alone. I have to put customers on waiting lists for ME1 because it is selling out, over TWO YEARS from it's original release.

Let's face it, Mass Effect is trilogy, built with that in mind from the inception. As both a huge fan of the series, and someone who is, for my small part, responsible for helping sell it, I would hate to see Bioware squander a great storytelling opportunity on people who can't be arsed to buy the original game(which retails for less than twenty dollars now, mind you). Gamers almost inevitably buy prequels no matter what anyway... I've seen it over and over, with games like Assassin's Creed, Bioshock, Gears of War... games that don't change at all based on your choices.

In conclusion, I just want to say that, Bioware, I love your games, and I think the work you have done so far on the Mass Effect series has been magnificent. But please, the handholding for series newbs is unnecessary. Players who follow the trilogy through from the beginning should get an experience above and beyond someone who jumps in at the middle, and I would hate to see the potential of ME3(and any expansion for ME2) watered down just to make it "accessible", or, a "good entry point". Because I can tell you, it isn't necessary, and in fact, you probably stand to make MORE money by more strongly encouraging players to pick up each entry for a more complete experience.

Good day.

good day to you! i agree.  It doesnt take away from the gameplay anyways.  If a player just wants a game they'll get it but if they want a story they should get the first one.

[petipas1414]

I feel that anyone who knows they're getting the final game in a trilogy, yet buy it anyway, SHOULD be mostly clueless. Sure they can get the game-play and such, but they don't deserve to have a game catered to them. Sorry, ME1 is like, 10 bucks at gamestop.

[slackbheep]

It would be great to see the impact of your choices more in the third game, and I'll be glad to see more returning characters and plot threads, but each game needs to be able to stand alone. These are sequels, not expansion packs.

[Sharn01]

Agree

[Computron2000]

ME3 cannot be based totally on ME2 and ME1. Any new players should have the right to complete the game's good/bad/netural endings.

HOWEVER, this does mean that additional small things like Conrad, Gianna, Helena, etc missing in a new ME2 game should be also missing in a ME3 game. A returning player can get bonus stuff (i find the emails actually quite a nice touch for a lot of the small quests done in ME1). All very minor but it adds up.

ALSO, the ending of a returning player can and should be of greater impact. This does not require new programming, just additional cut scenes or storyboard picture narrations. An example is fallout 3 whose ending shows the impact of actions done and doesn't require much except a picture and someone talking.

Example, the ending of a ME1/ME2 player with Wrex alive (default dead) should show him grasping hands with you. Grunt if alive (default unknown in ME3) from ME2 should also be there

Modifié par Computron2000, 04 mars 2010 - 07:50 .

[BurstAngel75]

I never played the first game, but I agree with you as well. I loved ME2 so much that I just bought and downloaded (took me a week on dailup!) just so I could experience it from the very begining.

Game play takes a little more to get use to, but so far I'm definitely enjoying the story.

[exxxed]

The best way for Bioware to go with the third installment's Ultimate Collector's Edition is the Orange Box way, a BIG bundle which includes all three games, the Novels, the Comics and the DLCs.

I would be the first to buy it, because in my country it's impossible to find and purchase the Novels and Comics plus certain DLC's (importing them would involve huge amounts of money i'm not willing to spend).

So my opinion is that the best thing they could do is the above plus the option to buy the third one separately.



Cheers!

[Corti78]

100% agree with OP.

[frokenscheim]

The continuity from game to game is what makes this series really special, I think, and it's why I'm expecting a finale that's not quite like any game I've experienced before. I would never recommend ME2 to someone without stressing the importance of playing ME1 first.



While I understand that it's a business and you never want to alienate potential customers, people need to understand that to not get the full experience of the trilogy is to do yourself a disservice.

[Pauravi]

I think that one big elephant in the room is that nobody seems to be identifying what it actually means for the game to be 'accessible' or 'enjoyable'.

ME2 is enjoyable simply because combat is fun, and the individual character's stories are compelling and well-acted. Is that good enough to be considered a "standalone" game? After all, there is really little that Bioware can do to give a whole game's worth of background to someone who is new to the series. They already have the codex if they are so interested, what more can they expect?

For those of us who played ME1, we have the satisfaction of knowing the background details to many of the conflicts mentioned, and the satisfaction of seeing returning characters and reflections of our past actions. Is this good enough for continuity's sake? I think it really is. After all, other than knowing the story and seeing our past actions come to fruition, what else does the word 'continuity' entail? I think that ME3 will be like ME2 in that certain big decisions will be made by default for people are just joining in, and other small decisions may not show up at all. Of course, our past decisions will likely have much bigger ramifications in ME3, and we will have the ability to play through and change those decisions if we wish, whereas people who ONLY bought ME3 will be limited to the default decisions that Bioware makes for them. This seems like a plenty big enough perk for going through the series -- I have a feeling that it is literally going to dictate where the end of the game can go for you.

As far as I am concerned, this is all either group can expect.

For those of you who are familiar with it, I look at this sort of like Firefly vs. Serenity.

Serenity was a very good sci-fi movie and it was enjoyed by moviegoers and critics alike, who praised its originality and characters. When I saw it, I had already watched the Firefly series. I enjoyed the movie, but I found myself constantly thinking, "But... you wouldn't even NOTICE that if you hadn't watched the series!". I was utterly convinced that no one who hadn't watched Firefly could fully appreciate the story, which is probably true.

That, really, is the payoff for coming in early; you get to notice lots of things that newbies just aren't aware of. The trick for the game or movie-crafter is to give the person who only watches the movie a complete experience without them knowing, or having to know, that there is a lot more to the story.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

I agree, I think they should force players to buy ME1 if they want to understand ME2. Lets hope that they do it with ME3. Although this may scare customers away and that's not always good for BioWare. I'd say it's good for us since it would keep shooter fans away from the franchise. I'm also pretty sure that most of the people who bought ME2 played ME1. I have not seen a lot of newbs or shooter fans or whatever. The main customer is still the RPG fan not the shooter fan IMO.

I do not agree.  While they are missing out on the storyline, ME 1's gameplay is a mess and could potentially turn off people on the future games.  If this were about an expansion I would definitely agree, but as a standalone game I absolutely do not.  The Xenosaga games failed to do this and their nonsensical story was even more problematic in the sequels because newer players would have no idea what was going on and it killed the franchise.  While I would like for the decisions made in each game have variances in how the games turn out later, I would prefer each game to stand on its own. 

Besides there is quite a bit already that a lot of people won't see in ME 2 if they don't play ME 1, their loss but it doesn't break the game for them because they will not notice what is missing.  That is fine with me, starting a default ME 2 character for me was a hollow experience, it wouldn't be for those turned off of ME 1 or are getting into the series for the first time, I do not see that being different in ME 3.

[DarthRic]

I agree with this thread