171 réponses à ce sujet

[superimposed]

Gaddmeister wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

As much as I definitely support rewarding players who have invested themselves in the first two games, I feel that a lot of people are preaching the opposite, that those who haven't played the first games should be punished coming into ME3.

I'm not sure I understand the difference. I'd say that if you reward a player who has played the other two games you punish a player who hasn't at the same time. Doesn't it just depend on how you look at it? People who have played ME1&2 will need to be rewarded. There is a need to feel that your choices have had an impact. Otherwise, what's the point?

I think it was fairly well done in ME2 (could have been better though), and I expect nothing less of ME3.

Let's put it in cake form.

If you're a regular to a cake shop, you get a free cake on your twentieth visit. That's rewarding the player. That's fine.


Punishing is telling any new visitors they aren't allowed cakes because they didn't come when the shop opened. That is what the OP and the Cheer Squad are advocating for ME:3. No cake at all. You won't get any new customers, and a lot of your old ones will be put off by the sheer arrogance of it.

[Tooneyman]

I love your opinion on this forum. I agree one hundred percent. If you didn't get the original game your a ******! Easy and simple. Please bioware. Don't give into nintendo's way of doing things for the 3rd entry. Don't get lazy screw the middle man. I'm the loong man. So love me as more. I've been loyal and dang it. I want a better game for ME 3. Thanks!

[superimposed]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Gaddmeister wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Continuity between books, games, movies, episodes, whatever, is the defining hallmark of a trilogy in any format. It should be prominent. The final chapter is not the time to be attempting to expand the audience. It's time to wrap things up.

I support this idea very much.

edit:
and lol, how did the Baldur's Gate series make it into this topic? It's non-existent when it comes to choice and consequence between the two games. Your level transfers, but that's it. And that's pointless because it'll take you 15 minutes of BG2 to eliminate that xp advantage. So playing BG to just for importing to BG2 is pointless.

I hope ME3 can have some quests that take different paths depending on your decisions in the first two games. Some e-mails are nice every now and then, but I'd like something substantial as well. And I hope that since it's supposed to be the last game the different endings will be more diverse.

Sweet, I can't stand the first Baldur's Gate but kind of like the second.  Am I really not missing out on that much or should I just go with BG 2?

You get a lot of background to the characters in BG 1 which makes sense of a lot of their lamenting and so on. If you really don't like it, uber your BG 1 characters with an editor and finish the game in, like, an hour or so.

If you start fresh from BG 2 then you'll likely enjoy it, but you might not understand a few of the more complex things, and miss out on the jokes.

Also, if you collect the Golden Pantaloons in BG 1 and then import a save, you can collect the other pantaloons in BG 2 and make the ultimate set of armor.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nightwriter wrote...

Long time gamers should not be rewarded at the expense or punishment of newbs.

Newbs should not be accommodated at the expense of the long time gamers.

Perfect. This. Simple.

Conceptually simple anyway...

I imagine in practice it's like trying to balance the 20 spinning dinnerplates while walking the tightrope over a tub of angry sharks. The sharks being the consumer.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 04 mars 2010 - 02:15 .

[Nightwriter]

superimposed wrote...

Gaddmeister wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

As much as I definitely support rewarding players who have invested themselves in the first two games, I feel that a lot of people are preaching the opposite, that those who haven't played the first games should be punished coming into ME3.

I'm not sure I understand the difference. I'd say that if you reward a player who has played the other two games you punish a player who hasn't at the same time. Doesn't it just depend on how you look at it? People who have played ME1&2 will need to be rewarded. There is a need to feel that your choices have had an impact. Otherwise, what's the point?

I think it was fairly well done in ME2 (could have been better though), and I expect nothing less of ME3.

Let's put it in cake form.

If you're a regular to a cake shop, you get a free cake on your twentieth visit. That's rewarding the player. That's fine.


Punishing is telling any new visitors they aren't allowed cakes because they didn't come when the shop opened. That is what the OP and the Cheer Squad are advocating for ME:3. No cake at all. You won't get any new customers, and a lot of your old ones will be put off by the sheer arrogance of it.

It's a good analogy, but what if those new customers had the ability and the freedom to go back in time to when the cake shop first opened and start from the beginning?

It's already been said that most new gamers who pick up ME2 buy the first one anyway. So what's the point?

[superimposed]

If they bought the first game after playing the second, then it's because as new players they enjoyed the second and wanted to see what spawned it. It was accomodating to them.

Not because they were distanced and felt a need to belong to an elitist gaming community.

[marshalleck]

superimposed wrote...

If they bought the first game after playing the second, then it's because as new players they enjoyed the second and wanted to see what spawned it. It was accomodating to them.
Not because they were distanced and felt a need to belong to an elitist gaming community.

So is your interest here the quality of the trilogy or snubbing who you perceive to be elitists?

[SurfaceBeneath]

marshalleck wrote...

superimposed wrote...

If they bought the first game after playing the second, then it's because as new players they enjoyed the second and wanted to see what spawned it. It was accomodating to them.
Not because they were distanced and felt a need to belong to an elitist gaming community.

So is your interest here the quality of the trilogy or snubbing who you perceive to be elitists?

Why can't both be bad?

Edit: Err... and by that I mean, why should either one have to sacrifice to the other?

EDIT EDIT: By Tyr's left hand and eye am I tired... half an hour... half an hour...

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 04 mars 2010 - 02:30 .

[Man785]

I like what Bioware is doing with this trilogy. Each game individually is good, but together it adds much more.

[marshalleck]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Why can't both be bad?

Edit: Err... and by that I mean, why should either one have to sacrifice to the other?

EDIT EDIT: By Tyr's left hand and eye am I tired... half an hour... half an hour...

I'm just planting seeds for discussion.

[superimposed]

marshalleck wrote...

superimposed wrote...

If they bought the first game after playing the second, then it's because as new players they enjoyed the second and wanted to see what spawned it. It was accomodating to them.
Not because they were distanced and felt a need to belong to an elitist gaming community.

So is your interest here the quality of the trilogy or snubbing who you perceive to be elitists?

It's not a perception of elitism, it is elitism when they're claiming they deserve a specially catered product just for them because they possess a 'quality' others do not.

Or arrogance.

Or pretentiousness.

My interest is seeing how Bioware will produce a game that will be fulfilling to long time fans and enjoyed by newcomers as much as they are able to enjoy it, as they inevitably will. Bioware has been a success not simply because the games have been fun, or the stories engaging, but because almost anybody can pick up any of their games and have as much fun as someone who played the preceeding games, and be as involved in the story presented to them. Why break a winning forumla?

[Nightwriter]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Edit: Err... and by that I mean, why should either one have to sacrifice to the other?

I'm assuming it's because of your balancing 20 spinning dinner plates while walking a tightrope over a tub of angry sharks analogy.

Which, by the way, was not inaccurate.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nightwriter wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Edit: Err... and by that I mean, why should either one have to sacrifice to the other?

I'm assuming it's because of your balancing 20 spinning dinner plates while walking a tightrope over a tub of angry sharks analogy.

Which, by the way, was not inaccurate.

I expect Bioware to start walking on their tippy toes and catch flies with chop sticks and all that

You know what they say about trying to please everyone... you actually do please everyone if you're awesome enough. Are you not awesome enough Bioware?? HUH?!

[greghorvath]

I think ME2 is a great achievement in giving people extra for playing ME, while not making it unenjoyable for people that haven't played the first game.

I lost all my ME save files (something happened to my backup files during Windows reinstall) and couldn't take up going through ME (for the 7th time) before ME2, so I started out almost as a virgin (of course I am aware of the fact that the universe was in fact familiar). But I did lost out on the consequences of my decisions in the lost save games. And the default decisions do suck (but only because they are the exact opposite of what I did in ME), but the prequel story was pretty well described in every situation requiring it.

I basically want to say that long time players were in fact given the rewards of being able to continue the story of their own Shepards, were given achievements and bonuses, while new players were given the chance to join in.

I think the balance was found. The force is pleased. Way to go Bioware. (but you do have to shut Harbinger up... )

Modifié par greghorvath, 04 mars 2010 - 03:12 .

[Andorfiend]

superimposed wrote...

but there's no reason why people starting 'anew' should miss out.

Oh course their is! Because for them not to miss out would require BW to make a 2 hour recap at the start of the game so the noobs know who Conrad Verner is, and Helena Blake and Shiala and Shiara and Wrex and Kaiden/Ashley and Anderson and Udina and ... well, you get the idea.

The newcomer to the series cannot possibly get the same experience out of the 3rd episode as I can, having played the prevous two games, because he is lacking a 60+ hour investment into this magnificent universe. Unless of course they just blow up all my friends and enemies during the intermission and make me build a new team. Again. For the purspose of leveling the playing field between me and the newcomer. And that, frankly, would be punishing me for my loyalty.

So they have a choice. Punish the newcomer by having a lot of stuff going on that he can not fully understand, or punish us, the loyal customers who have already given them a lot of money. My position on this choice is pretty predictable.

If they are that worried about the noobs missing out they can just make a freaking trilogy bundle with all three games in one box, right?

[superimposed]

Oh course their is! Because for them not to miss out would require BW to make a 2 hour recap at the start of the game so the noobs know who Conrad Verner is, and Helena Blake and Shiala and Shiara and Wrex and Kaiden/Ashley and Anderson and Udina and ... well, you get the idea.



The newcomer to the series cannot possibly get the same experience out of the 3rd episode as I can, having played the prevous two games, because he is lacking a 60+ hour investment into this magnificent universe. Unless of course they just blow up all my friends and enemies during the intermission and make me build a new team. Again. For the purspose of leveling the playing field between me and the newcomer. And that, frankly, would be punishing me for my loyalty.



So they have a choice. Punish the newcomer by having a lot of stuff going on that he can not fully understand, or punish us, the loyal customers who have already given them a lot of money. My position on this choice is pretty predictable. http://social.biowar...cons/bandit.png



If they are that worried about the noobs missing out they can just make a freaking trilogy bundle with all three games in one box, right?

There, not 'their', and everything you've said has been addressed and soundly defeated.

[Minaach]

This has always been a topic of discussion in any game, and I'm glad to see it hasn't come down to e-peen stroking and yelling.



Yes, people who buy the beginning of a great series like Mass Effect and continue through it should be rewarded. But in that same sense, the people who enjoyed the series as a whole but couldn't actually obtain it until it was available to them..what happens to them? Do they get punished for not being able to afford either a new system or a PC that is strong enough to run it?



I did not have a 360, nor did I have a good enough comp to play Mass Effect 1. Yet, I still really enjoyed the story and the progression. (wiki ftw) All of my friends played it and they each had different stories I got to watch all of them. Before ME2 came out, I went out and bought ME1 because I could finally get a computer that could play it. (this economy really hit me hard) I played it and it was a huge game, I was glad I played it and now that ME2 has come out, I felt I was rewarded already just by the story picking up where I left off.



To confuse elitism with this type of suggestion is ridiculous. Supporting Bioware and buying ME1, ME2, or Dragon Age and the upcoming Expansion...that is what we are doing. Without them, we wouldn't have these titles or a great community that you guys have helped create with Bioware.



I would think welcoming new people into a community wouldn't be a bad option at all. Who wouldn't want to be a new customer to a shop and be welcomed like a regular? Let them experience the effects of what it is like to be an existing supporter and I promise you, people will stay and enjoy it even more.



Here is something I think could benefit everyone.



People who play from ME1 through ME3 get better bonuses and more whatever they decide to do PLUS DLC exclusive to triology owners. ME2 get bonuses that are good, but not as good as trilogy owners. They get access to certain parts of DLC. ME3 buyers will just get the game.



I'm not an expert by any means in game development, so take my idea with a grain of salt.

[Homey C-Dawg]

I agree with OP

[RE0305]

I don't want to be rewarded or get dlc bonuses or stat boosts. I don't need recognition for buying every chapter in the series.



What i would like for once, is a true trilogy. That the story is actually planned out before as a whole and then divided into three games because of the huge scale of the story and the sheer epicness.



Until the mentality of being or not being punished changes and the customers gain a new perspective the developers will always have to make sure that eventhough the series is supposedly one whole story it is still accessible for the newcomers.



This means that no matter how much the developers stress the fact that this is a whole story it will never become one truely, if each and every sequel is made to be easy to access for newcomers aswell.

[madisk]

Pauravi wrote...

I think that one big elephant in the room is that nobody seems to be identifying what it actually means for the game to be 'accessible' or 'enjoyable'.
ME2 is enjoyable simply because combat is fun, and the individual character's stories are compelling and well-acted. Is that good enough to be considered a "standalone" game? After all, there is really little that Bioware can do to give a whole game's worth of background to someone who is new to the series. They already have the codex if they are so interested, what more can they expect?
For those of us who played ME1, we have the satisfaction of knowing the background details to many of the conflicts mentioned, and the satisfaction of seeing returning characters and reflections of our past actions. Is this good enough for continuity's sake? I think it really is. After all, other than knowing the story and seeing our past actions come to fruition, what else does the word 'continuity' entail? I think that ME3 will be like ME2 in that certain big decisions will be made by default for people are just joining in, and other small decisions may not show up at all. Of course, our past decisions will likely have much bigger ramifications in ME3, and we will have the ability to play through and change those decisions if we wish, whereas people who ONLY bought ME3 will be limited to the default decisions that Bioware makes for them. This seems like a plenty big enough perk for going through the series -- I have a feeling that it is literally going to dictate where the end of the game can go for you.
As far as I am concerned, this is all either group can expect.
For those of you who are familiar with it, I look at this sort of like Firefly vs. Serenity.
Serenity was a very good sci-fi movie and it was enjoyed by moviegoers and critics alike, who praised its originality and characters. When I saw it, I had already watched the Firefly series. I enjoyed the movie, but I found myself constantly thinking, "But... you wouldn't even NOTICE that if you hadn't watched the series!". I was utterly convinced that no one who hadn't watched Firefly could fully appreciate the story, which is probably true.
That, really, is the payoff for coming in early; you get to notice lots of things that newbies just aren't aware of. The trick for the game or movie-crafter is to give the person who only watches the movie a complete experience without them knowing, or having to know, that there is a lot more to the story.

QFT

[Beerfish]

I agree as well and the way to get around watering down decisions is to give the person soley playing the 2nd game a series of questions in a creative way to settle how they handled each key situation in the 1st game.

[tyddrwsau]

I agree with the OP. Furthermore, I strongly hope that BioWare take their time in developing ME3. The multiple divergent arcs of choice and consequence they've already established, plus new ones to be introduced in the final chapter, present the potential for a game of delectable complexity and great replay value. Sure, someone should be able to pick it up off the shelf as a newcomer and play the story (great! I hope they enjoy it!), but the depth of the story should absolutely link back to the first two. Not only would it make ME3 a phenomenal game, but it could be very smart marketing. Since ME2 is effective in selling ME1, ME3 can be effective in selling both previous titles. I'm sure they'll market a Mass Effect Trilogy edition too.

[Akeashar]

I for one watched Serenity and hadn't seen Firefly, and I enjoyed it. Sure I probably didn't get the whole 'Oh My Gawsh' thing that all the fanboys and girls would have, but that didn't really detract for me. Well, except knowing that whenever I finally get around to watching the series that certain characters were going to die.

I just hope that Bioware doesn't do what Lucas did with Return of the Jedi. Which was take the end of Empire and have Return start somewhere completely different in some weird sequence that had people that had watched the first two going 'WTF?'

In regards to the complainers about recaps, ME2 has *nothing* on Ultima 4 through 7 (I haven't played 9 so I don't know how bad it is) where even if you've been transferring your save data, you still have to sit through talking to people you've met in every Ultima previously and talking to them about everything that you already know to progress the storyline, while they act as if you were dropped on your head. 'Wait, don't you remember that you're the Avatar and what that means?'

The recap in ME2 lasts maybe 5 minutes where Jacob and Miranda quiz you about how you feel about things that happened?

[superimposed]

Less than that if you spam 'skip'.

And all of that could be cut out if they made them codex entries. People can still catch up without any interference. They had that recap as part of the 'RP' experience. I quite liked it the first time I played through.

This means that no matter how much the developers stress the fact that this is a whole story it will never become one truely, if each and every sequel is made to be easy to access for newcomers aswell.

Nonsense, again. It's easily done. Integrate revision of the story with progression, it's been done before.

Notice how the new leader tells you about how you killed Wrex on Virmire in the default ME:2 game? That's integrating revision with story progression, it also tells you Wrex was the leader of Clan Urdnot. Nobody pulled that up as 'unnecessary' as it was well executed.

[SarEnyaDor]

Don't think of it as people who didn't play ME1 are being punished, think of it as people who did play it are being rewarded....