171 réponses à ce sujet

[superimposed]

Think of it as what it is. If you refuse to tell new players what they're getting in to, or who's who, you're deterring them from playing the game. You're punishing them for not having bought the first two.

[SuperZombieChow]

AntiChri5 wrote...

When i buy the second part of a book trilogy i dont whine that it doesnt make sense, i know it is my own damn fault for not reading the first one.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Sphynx118]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

When i buy the second part of a book trilogy i dont whine that it doesnt make sense, i know it is my own damn fault for not reading the first one.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

This! And OP for president of the ME forums

[Azorgamer]

Great forum post - awesome, here, here!!!

I admit I really liked ME2 but where's the impact of the Rachni, I saved the Council and I get 2 words in and that's it. I save Ashley in one playthrough and Kaidan in another and I get 2 words from them and then nothing - each time I made the decision I had a disgusted feeling in my gut having to kill off one of them. Saving Shiala and Wrex and helping Gianna honestly seemed the only place where I saw an impact - Wrex being the biggest impact (thank goodness, I saved him each time and it was good to see him well and alive and prospering). It was great that we were able to grow along with characters like Tali and Garrus but what about the rest of our crew from the first one - that's what made a lot of people like ME1 - the characters and the interaction. It was great having Joker and Dr Chakwas (spelling) along for the ride in ME2. The game was made for new players with some things in there for older players but still the focus was more on new people.

If they do this for ME3 - then what was the point. I'm certain I'll like ME3 but why all this hoopla about "Your decisions will impact the whole trilogy." I even saw one of the developers saying that decisions from ME1 would really show an impact in ME3...W-H-A-T...so hardly any impact in ME2 but a huge impact in ME3 *scratches head*, I don't know - somehow that seems wrong.

Oh well, after ME2, here's what I'm expecting in ME3 - new characters, a little bit of impact from ME2 and ME1, but overall a completely new story line - sure, there will be Reapers, but the game will be made so that if you didn't play ME1 and ME2 you can just jump into ME3 and all will be well with the world. *sigh*

Oh well, I'm still looking forward to ME3, but I just wished we hadn't been promised this overarching story with decisions that would impact the entire trilogy - because that's not what we're getting at the moment.

[Safoulan]

One players punishment is another players draw to try multiple playthroughs and see how different the installments of a game trilogy like this can be. How different "good" Shep or "evil" Shep can be.



Besides, if ME2 & ME3 stood ENTIRELY on their own, they wouldn't be part of a freakin trilogy now would they? The saga is a balance amongst all three. As it should be.

[Safoulan]

Additionally, why so much hate about the decisions feature?



What they 'sold' players is true, decisions DO have impact. Maybe not the EXACT impact on a character or government or end game that a player had wished for. But it's still a significant step in the 'empowered player' direction for RPG's.



ME2 definitely has more shades of gray than ME1, where Renegade and Paragon choices don't always play out as Pure Evil or Boy Scout. Sometimes a Renegade choice did the characters involved more of a favor than Paragon, or vice versa.

[Andorfiend]

superimposed wrote...

There, not 'their', and everything you've said has been addressed and soundly defeated.

In what imaginary universe did this take place? I'm curious. How do you 'defeat' a simple fact? Someone new to a series cannot have the same emotional tie-in and background knowledge as someone with 60+ hours invested in the series. If you can refute that, I'll be astonished.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Safoulan wrote...

Additionally, why so much hate about the decisions feature?

What they 'sold' players is true, decisions DO have impact. Maybe not the EXACT impact on a character or government or end game that a player had wished for. But it's still a significant step in the 'empowered player' direction for RPG's.

ME2 definitely has more shades of gray than ME1, where Renegade and Paragon choices don't always play out as Pure Evil or Boy Scout. Sometimes a Renegade choice did the characters involved more of a favor than Paragon, or vice versa.

Well see we got more than any other game previously ever made regarding decisions transferring from one game to another with ME 2, but people were expecting it to have a major impact which it did not so they have problems with it.

Plus I thought the decisions were handled just fine, again I liked what I did in the first having an impact of the flavor of the universe rather than I don't know, level design, mission design.  whatever.

[firest0rm]

Well said OP, i agree to the extent that i hope they don't pull too many punches in terms or references, ramifications for past decisions and nods to long time fans. However at the same time don't see the problem with making concessions to new comers by adding something like a "previously on mass effect" cinematic. Hell bioware could even handle it like infinity ward did in CoD:Modern warfare 2, (played short recap clips during opening credits). now please don't flip at me i know CoD has nothing in common with the ME trilogy but from a the stand point of filling in new comers without really impacting the overall game i thought it was pretty slick and could be at least one way of dealing with the question of catering to new fans without grossly compromising the continuity.

anyway that's my 2 cents.

Modifié par firest0rm, 04 mars 2010 - 05:38 .

[glasgoo21]

I sign present, agree completely

[Terraneaux]

superimposed wrote...

If they bought the first game after playing the second, then it's because as new players they enjoyed the second and wanted to see what spawned it. It was accomodating to them.
Not because they were distanced and felt a need to belong to an elitist gaming community.

Just so you know, man, elitism sells.  Everyone wants to be part of a club,' it's just how people work.  If you tell people that they can get into some sort of hypothetical club by going and buying the earlier games in a trilogy, some of them will do it, which means $$$ for Bioware.

[Ghostano]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

When i buy the second part of a book trilogy i dont whine that it doesnt make sense, i know it is my own damn fault for not reading the first one.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 Yet I will **** when the second "book" makes no sense and adds nothing to the over all trilogy. ME2 does nothing more then dog paddle till ME3. There should never be a place horlder in a trilogy because then it stops being a trilogy and becomes nothing more then a squal with a OVA story in the middle.

 

[Xenos42]

I agree with the op as well. As has been stated repeatedly in this thread, the last part of a trilogy is not the time to try and bring in new players and to expect more than a very cursory rehash this late in the game is foolish. At this point, the fan base for ME is large enough that they could in fact make the game completely inaccessible to newcomers and it would still sell millions of copies. Not saying that this is what they'll do for sure, just that it's definitely an option.

Modifié par Xenos42, 04 mars 2010 - 05:55 .

[aznsoisauce]

I agree with the OP.

Gameplay and core plot-wise, a new comer playing ME3 shouldn't miss out on anything. However, someone that has not played both ME1 or ME2 (or at least ME2) should get less content in terms or squad mates and their character development and other fan-rewarding story elements (the genophage, the council, the Rachni, etc).

Mass Effect was intended to be a trilogy and should be enjoyed as such.

Honestly, I did not play the 1st game until about a month before the 2nd was to come out. I bought and played through it multiple times BECAUSE the 2nd installment was coming and I wanted to get the most out of what would become my Shepard's story. So, from a business stand point...rewarding fans is a great idea.

New comers are missing out and they should feel like it. <_<

[CmdrFenix83]

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Here's an idea (maybe not a great one): When the third one comes out Bioware could issue a special uber-super-duper collectors edition that packages all three installments along with the downloadable content from all three games and additional artwork. That way the company could cash in big time on newbies and I'm sure a few completionists would fork out the money just to have the "ultimate edition".

They shouldn't have to pay any extra money to enjoy Mass Effect 3. They may not get the full experience, but there's no reason  why they shouldn't be able to enjoy ME:3 as is. You shouldn't punish players for not being the previous two games.
However, as a bundle deal, this is a pretty good idea. People will buy it.

Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

Yes, they should.  You don't walk into the third part of a trilogy(from movies, to books, to final third of a TV series) and expect to have any idea what's going on.  No one's saying they should *punish* people that are new to the seires.  They're saying that they shouldn't be considered in the creation of the final product.  Give a default Shepard to people that don't want to import, but make the game for the people that you know are bringing in their ME1/ME2 characters.

[Sphynx118]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Gordo Schumway wrote...

Here's an idea (maybe not a great one): When the third one comes out Bioware could issue a special uber-super-duper collectors edition that packages all three installments along with the downloadable content from all three games and additional artwork. That way the company could cash in big time on newbies and I'm sure a few completionists would fork out the money just to have the "ultimate edition".

They shouldn't have to pay any extra money to enjoy Mass Effect 3. They may not get the full experience, but there's no reason  why they shouldn't be able to enjoy ME:3 as is. You shouldn't punish players for not being the previous two games.
However, as a bundle deal, this is a pretty good idea. People will buy it.

Besides, as Mass Effect Saves shows us, if you really want the 'full experience' just download a 43kb save instead of paying around $100 for two games you'll have to play through over, and over, just to get all the different combinations of choices and consequences.

Yes, they should.  You don't walk into the third part of a trilogy(from movies, to books, to final third of a TV series) and expect to have any idea what's going on.  No one's saying they should *punish* people that are new to the seires.  They're saying that they shouldn't be considered in the creation of the final product.  Give a default Shepard to people that don't want to import, but make the game for the people that you know are bringing in their ME1/ME2 characters.

Why would anyone with an IQ higher then 5 download a save instead of playing the awesomeness that is me 1?

That would be like buying a video of someone bungy jumping and then go: Yeah now ive totally done that and i didnt even need to pay for it LOLOLOL

[Madecologist]

I can not speak to the OP or to everyone agreeing with him. But what I can say is not everyone who agreed with the OP's sentiment wants the franchise to become exclusive to veterans and "punish" new players (as for the OP's intent, well it is up to them to express themselves here).

Sure there might be extremists who do believe in that, but claiming everyone hoping for a stronger continuity for a returning player is automatically wanting to penalise new players is a vulgar exaggeration of the oppisition's intent. It is a common tactic in politics to garner support to your cause by "demonising" the otherside. Forum discussions are not immune to such tactics. It is almost an inate human reaction during an arguement.

What I am saying is we should fight this urge to polorize the arguement. I think there is more common ground here a lot of people can agree on. Or atleast many can agree on (since you will always have extremists in these opinions).

Modifié par Madecologist, 04 mars 2010 - 06:42 .

[RigAudio]

Good point, OP. I agree.

[Sad Dragon]

Nightwriter wrote...

Long time gamers should not be rewarded at the expense or punishment of newbs.

Newbs should not be accommodated at the expense of the long time gamers.

Agreed.

Problem i think is that alot of people, including myself - to some extent - felt that the reward for being one of the long time gamers was alot less then what we where "promised". ME2, i think, did a good job at letting new people enjoy the game without having to play through the first game. As such i belive the game has been successful in catering to the new players. In terms of the long timer player i personaly feel that what rewards there are in ME2 is not the "big consequences" that Bioware talked about. These might still come in ME3 mind you but all the same i think they droped the ball somewhat in terms of this when it came to ME2. They have also made inconsistancies when dealing with things from ME1. This can in part be contributed to save game mechanics - as with Conrad being checked as both paragon and renegade (atleast i think it was conrad). That being said when something like that gets thrown against you as a old player and you think "but i didnt go down that road in ME1" its not adding to the rewarding feeling - mind you i didnt even reflect on the conrad part but i have reflected on other things which i will elaborate on when i have gotten my thoughts togehter.

All in all i feel that interms of ME2 i think they did to little for the long time players - but i will have to wait until ME3 to know if this is the case or if the consequences are simply delayed into the third installment. What i do know however is that, from playing ME2, i will not try and make friends who are thinking about ME3 or ME2 for that matter play through the first game but mearly say:
"Well you get some more story and you get a few flavour dialogues in the ME2. ME1/ME2 is a good game but you dont have to have played them."
In contrast i said: "You should really play the game, they have stated that they will import a lot of your choices in ME1 into ME2 and its a great game too."

Still: Both installemts of ME have been good.

[Ruka13]

The paramount point to this discussion is that Mass Effect was planned from preconception as a trilogy, a trilogy centered on the character of commander Shepard, the Mass Effect universe and the struggle against the Reapers.

By definition a trilogy is a group of three novels, plays, movies, games, etc. that are closely related in theme, sequence or other such things, often meant to be viewed/played/read in chronological order while still remaining individually complete. Each Mass Effect game is telling a part of commander Shepard's story and while each part is obviously connected to the previous ones each must still carry a message/tell a story of their own. As such one should be able to pick up any of the games and experience it to a sense of completeness.

It's like meeting someone, you don't necessarily need to have a full understanding of a persons childhood to appreciate the person they are today. Though, of course, such knowledge adds to the relationship.

So IMHO while new players should be able to pick up ME3 and enjoy it old fans are already being rewarded with familiarity with the universe, a greater understanding of it's characters and the first hand experience of the stories told in previous parts.

In short, old fans are already blessed. So let's allow others a chance to feel a fraction of what we will.

Cheers

EDIT: Paragraphing

Modifié par Ruka13, 04 mars 2010 - 07:24 .

[Jax Sparrow]

 I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite post on the internet!  

[madisk]

HEY EVERYONE! WE DON'T NEED TO ARGUE OVER WHICH ONE SHOULD BIOWARE FOCUS ON.YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO A GAME THAT'S BOTH ACCESSIBLE AND INTERESTING TO NEWCOMERS AND REWARDING FOR EXISTING FANS.

[Andorfiend]

I want ME 3 to be a complete skull**** of a game. It should take everything I did in ME 1, and ME 2 and suck me into a vortex of plot and action that completely incorporates all my past actions and is full of twists, consequences and surprises.



That's what should come in the ME 3 box for me, the veteren player.



Someone who has never played before should get the trilogy pack that sits right next to it on the shelf for $15 more, they they can enjoy the same experience I get. Heck if it includes all the purchasable DLC I might buy it myself.

[superimposed]

Andorfiend wrote...

I want ME 3 to be a complete skull**** of a game. It should take everything I did in ME 1, and ME 2 and suck me into a vortex of plot and action that completely incorporates all my past actions and is full of twists, consequences and surprises.

That's what should come in the ME 3 box for me, the veteren player.

Someone who has never played before should get the trilogy pack that sits right next to it on the shelf for $15 more, they they can enjoy the same experience I get. Heck if it includes all the purchasable DLC I might buy it myself.

Then you have to pay $15 dollars extra for ME:3 stand alone. They shouldn't have to pay more to buy one game just because you can't even begin to fathom something called 'quality writing' which Bioware is more than capable of.

[Inverness Moon]

I fully agree with the OP and hope BioWare reads it.

superimposed wrote...

Wrong again. You do get the full experience of Mass Effect 2 using someone else's saves.

Sorry, but part of the experience of ME is being able to continue what you yourself have done in the previous or current game and seeing the consequences of your actions in the next. Other people's choices are not as valuable as your own. Just like the default Shepard has choices made by BioWare and not yourself. If you don't understand this then this discussion is pointless.