82 réponses à ce sujet

[Statulos]

Mystra should be True Neutral considering that she has people "on board" like Harlaster, Szass Tamn, Netheril´s arch-lichs and some other quite "evil" spellcastes.



But some are quite good examples; Bane-Cyric-Shar (lawful-chaotic-neutral) are perfect examples of evil gods that otherwise hate each other and will never cooperate.

[Seagloom]

That's only part of it. I could write a few paragraphs on why Mystra is undeserving of her NG alignment, but what you covered was sufficient. Actually, I can believe Shar cooperating with Cyric or Bane. She's opportunistic and a crafty schemer. I can see her forming a temporary alliance with just about any deity if it suit her purposes. Of course anyone sane isn't going to want to make a deal with her. She's easily the most evil of them all, and it doesn't hurt that she's also the most powerful of them. >.< But eh, I'll quiet down now. Not the thread for FR discussion.

[Mordaedil]

Seagloom wrote...

That's only part of it. I could write a few paragraphs on why Mystra is undeserving of her NG alignment, but what you covered was sufficient.

When I first read about Mystra, I imagined a beautiful woman in a long blue/white dress, and her description kinda changed that a little bit, but I still assumed she was a beautiful graceful figure.

Then I saw her illustration, which was a biker tyke.

I. Was. Disappoint.

[Sarevok Anchev]

Statulos wrote...

Mystra should be True Neutral considering that she has people "on board" like Harlaster, Szass Tamn, Netheril´s arch-lichs and some other quite "evil" spellcastes.

But some are quite good examples; Bane-Cyric-Shar (lawful-chaotic-neutral) are perfect examples of evil gods that otherwise hate each other and will never cooperate.

Not completely true.
Velsharoon, Vecna, Azuth and other deities, that were former mages and are now Lich-Gods have most of the undead Mages and evil Mages as followers.
Halaster is  the only exception 

[Seagloom]

Actually Sarevok, Larloch is also a devout Mystran. In fact, he has a personal relationship with her in that she's personally passed along spell secrets to her. The main reason is Larloch, being a netherese survivor, doesn't want to see another Karsus incident occur again. Evil as he is, his work is in Mystra's best interests, so she aids him.

Then of course there's Halaster who's chaotic evil with a capitol C. Szass Tam isn't a follower. Missed that last night. However, Mystra does condone and support the Red Wizards of Thay because they spread the use of magic and produce many magical objects. The fact they work with fiends, are slavers, and have depraved murderers and rapists in their upper echelons doesn't faze her, because they advance the cause of magic.

If you're familiar with the Simbul, you know that she makes a habit of nuking Thayans for fun. She hates them, and her country is a common target of Thayan aggression. Well, Mystra has reined the Simbul in, disallowing her from ever damaging Thay too much. A lot of people online complain that the Chosen are these godly, do anything they want NPC superheroes... when in reality they're just Mystra's puppets. IMO her rule over magic is so all encompassing it borders on tyranny. I probably wouldn't feel that way if she was actually benevolent, but she's fairly single-minded in spreading her influence. The few genuinely good things she does definitely don't justify a NG aligment IMO. Also, Vecna is a Greyhawk god; not Forgotten Realms.

@Mordaedil - Ah yes, her much maligned Faiths & Pantheons portrait. I liked it. Plus, she has those killer boots. She looks a lot more like a stereotypical fantasy wizard if you look at her art in Faiths & Avatars. You'd probably prefer that version. I thought it was okay, but... y'know, stereotypical.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 mars 2010 - 12:12 .

[Sarevok Anchev]

@Seagloom: Nice post!

But i wasnt referring only to Forgotten Realms. And i am not dividing this, because i like the story-base behind "Planescape" and Sigil.

Also Vecna is involved in many BS, this includes time and dimension travel.

Plus: Dont forget, that you can buy "Vecnas Eye" in BG2



Mystra is surely strange. She seems to resemble the female divine goddesses from dfferent cultures, because she inherits the "blissful, creating and nurturing mother", but also the "destroying and dominating destruction" ^^



I also think that Mystras "apprentices" would have no chance against the "CIRCLE OF EIGHT"!

[lordpaulakoski]

True Neutral-



A true neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. He doesn't feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most true neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil after all, he would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, he's not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way. Some true neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run. True neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion. However, true neutral can be a dangerous alignment because it represents apathy, indifference, and a lack of conviction.



Detailed Results:



Alignment:

Lawful Good ----- XXXXXXXXXXX (11)

Neutral Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (18)

Chaotic Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)

Lawful Neutral -- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (15)

True Neutral ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (22)

Chaotic Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (21)

Lawful Evil ----- XXXXXXXXXXX (11)

Neutral Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (18)

Chaotic Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)



Law & Chaos:

Law ----- XXXX (4)

Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXX (11)

Chaos --- XXXXXXXXXX (10)



Good & Evil:

Good ---- XXXXXXX (7)

Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXX (11)

Evil ---- XXXXXXX (7)

[Loerwyn]

True Neutral, tending more towards good.

Sounds about right.

[Seagloom]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...

@Seagloom: Nice post!
But i wasnt referring only to Forgotten Realms. And i am not dividing this, because i like the story-base behind "Planescape" and Sigil. Also Vecna is involved in many BS, this includes time and dimension travel. Plus: Dont forget, that you can buy "Vecnas Eye" in BG2

Mystra is surely strange. She seems to resemble the female divine goddesses from dfferent cultures, because she inherits the "blissful, creating and nurturing mother", but also the "destroying and dominating destruction"
^^

I also think that Mystras "apprentices" would have no chance against the "CIRCLE OF EIGHT"!

Ah, I see. That's true. Vecna crosses over into other settings and there is *some* planar travel into Forgotten Realms. However, Vecna himself never made an appearance in Faerûn. He pretty much can't without establishing a following and gaining permission to cross over first. Also, um, it's Vecna's Robe in Baldur's Gate 2. I *wish* it was his eye, since that's an artifact level item with a wicked background, but it wasn't. :/

Anyway I may have misinterpreted your response to Statulos. I thought you were citing other gods necromancers or generic evil spellcasters might worship in FR, so I wrote my reply with that in mind.

I gotta disagree on the Circle of Eight, by the way. Not that they aren't badass; because they are. It's just that stats wise, and plot wise, only Mordenkainen stands a good chance against The Simbul, Elminster, or Khelben. He's about on par with Alustriel, except he lacks the silver fire ability Mystra bestows on her Chosen. I think he *can* win against them, but it wouldn't be in a one on one fight. His best chance is to fight them in the Planes. He would be toast if he fought them on Toril.

A better comparison would be Iggwilv, the Witch Queen. She's an incredibly powerful archmage and can summon an aspect of the demon prince Graz'zt. The chosen are powerful, but they're kinda rubbish against demon princes and archdevils. Even Mystra is, to an extent. Iggwilv could probably face one of them in a straight spell battle and win.

In other news: damn I'm a P&P geek.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 mars 2010 - 01:13 .

[Seagloom]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

Wow, Seagloom! You know so much about these deities! Might I ask how you know of all this? If there exist books about these deities, I'd really like to read them! (playing BG has made me interested in its background story... wanna know more! )

I'm going to take that as a compliment.

If you're curious about Forgotten Realms deities, the best sources are Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons. These are both second edition D&D books, so they're out of print. You can probably find them at Amazon's marketplace, Troll and Toad, or Noble Knight easily enough. You can also try tracking down PDFs for them online.

If you're interested in Mystra, I also recommend The Seven Sisters and Secrets of the Magister. Also 2e sources. Faiths & Pantheons is the 3e source for FR deities, but most of it rehashed 2e material with a few updates thrown in. Beyond that it gets very convoluted, with bits and pieces of information all over the place. If you're curious about something specific I can try to answer, but you should probably send me a PM so we can avoid the epic thread derailment getting worse.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 mars 2010 - 01:19 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...
Plus: Dont forget, that you can buy "Vecnas Eye" in BG2

You can also aquire his robe.
You can also get his eye in Torment.

[Seagloom]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

Okay, thanks for your reply, Seagloom. And yes, I meant it as a compliment
So...those books are all second edition, huh? Then it's going to take a while to find them... I'll look it up first. Anyway, thanks for the info!

And sorry for the off-topicness (don't bite me!)

Heh... if anyone needs to apologize for off-topicness it's definitely me. You're welcome though. Good luck tracking them down.

Also, you two (Ahisgewaya and Sarevok) have to tell me where the Eye of Vecna is in BG2 because I never found it, and it doesn't appear on any item lists. Are you sure it isn't part of a mod? I know you can't acquire it in Planescape: Torment in normal gameplay, but it's at least in the files.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 mars 2010 - 01:25 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Sweet! I'm Chaotic Good!

Chaotic Good- A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he's kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society. Chaotic good is the best alignment you can be because it combines a good heart with a free spirit. However, chaotic good can be a dangerous alignment because it disrupts the order of society and punishes those who do well for themselves.

[Ahisgewaya]

Seagloom wrote...

Also, you two (Ahisgewaya and Sarevok) have to tell me where the Eye of Vecna is in BG2 because I never found it, and it doesn't appear on any item lists. Are you sure it isn't part of a mod? I know you can't acquire it in Planescape: Torment in normal gameplay, but it's at least in the files.

Well, I think it's in the Throne of Bhaal expansion pack, which I usually include when I think of Baldur's Gate.
And I thought you could get it in Torment, but had to make a deal with the evil book? Maybe I'm just wrong...Haven't played either of these in a while.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 05 mars 2010 - 01:33 .

[Cybernetica]

True Neutral

lol figured as much

[Statulos]

In terms of deities, the genuine neutral good is Mother Chaunthea (or Khaunthea); even more than Lathander. Not only she´s the most powerful godess (even more than the biggies like Shar, Mystra, Talos or Tempus), but actually she has never attacked something alive just because... well, it´s alive.

And for the infernal kids; who cares about devils and demons when you have yuggoloth.

Modifié par Statulos, 05 mars 2010 - 02:26 .

[Quixal]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

Okay, thanks for your reply, Seagloom. And yes, I meant it as a compliment
So...those books are all second edition, huh? Then it's going to take a while to find them... I'll look it up first. Anyway, thanks for the info!

And sorry for the off-topicness (don't bite me!)

Indeed. I would add that if you are looking for anything lore intensive, your best bet is second edition. Later editions glaze over the lore and focus more on statistics, making for a good deal less interesting or informative read. The Villain's Lorebook might be another one worth checking out, though likely also hard to find.

[Seagloom]

Statulos wrote...

In terms of deities, the genuine neutral good is Mother Chaunthea (or Khaunthea); even more than Lathander. Not only she´s the most powerful godess (even more than the biggies like Shar, Mystra, Talos or Tempus), but actually she has never attacked something alive just because... well, it´s alive.

And for the infernal kids; who cares about devils and demons when you have yuggoloth.

I thought about Chauntea afterwards, but went with Lathander anyway because he's more proactive than Chauntea. The NG traits are easier to see in him since he's about as subtle as an explosion.

Ah yes, yugoloths. Love 'em. Particularly fond of arcanaloths. But my heart will always remain with demonkind. Call me old fashioned, but barring succubi, I've always preferred my fiends to look like freakish abominations that instill disgust, horror, and awe at a mere glance. I look Marilith, Bebelith or Nalfeshnee and think "this a monster." Then I look at something like Demogorgon and cringe (in a good way). Although that may be because mandrills and baboons freak me out. Yugoloth are neat but too buglike and too complex in nature. Demons are the monsters people have nightmares about. They're single-minded, grotesque horros. 'Tis why I prefer them.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 mars 2010 - 03:01 .

[Quixal]

Seagloom wrote...
Ah yes, yugoloths. Love 'em. Particularly fond of arcanaloths. But my heart will always remain with demonkind. Call me old fashioned, but baring succubi, I've always preferred my fiends to look like freakish abominations that instill disgust or awe at a mere glance. Yugoloth are close but too buglike and too complex. Demons are the monsters people have nightmares about. 'Tis why I prefer them.

Heh. I am particularly partial to arcanaloths myself. As for demons, I suppose I favor mariliths, with glabrezu coming in at a close second.

Yugoloths are an interesting idea in terms of where they fit in the pecking order. A little more complex than just the mercenaries representing the neutral ground between chaos and law in the lower planes.

[Sarevok Anchev]

Seagloom wrote...
Ah, I see. That's true. Vecna crosses over into other settings and there is *some* planar travel into Forgotten Realms. However, Vecna himself never made an appearance in Faerûn. He pretty much can't without establishing a following and gaining permission to cross over first. Also, um, it's Vecna's Robe in Baldur's Gate 2. I *wish* it was his eye, since that's an artifact level item with a wicked background, but it wasn't. :/

Anyway I may have misinterpreted your response to Statulos. I thought you were citing other gods necromancers or generic evil spellcasters might worship in FR, so I wrote my reply with that in mind.

I gotta disagree on the Circle of Eight, by the way. Not that they aren't badass; because they are. It's just that stats wise, and plot wise, only Mordenkainen stands a good chance against The Simbul, Elminster, or Khelben. He's about on par with Alustriel, except he lacks the silver fire ability Mystra bestows on her Chosen. I think he *can* win against them, but it wouldn't be in a one on one fight. His best chance is to fight them in the Planes. He would be toast if he fought them on Toril.

A better comparison would be Iggwilv, the Witch Queen. She's an incredibly powerful archmage and can summon an aspect of the demon prince Graz'zt. The chosen are powerful, but they're kinda rubbish against demon princes and archdevils. Even Mystra is, to an extent. Iggwilv could probably face one of them in a straight spell battle and win.

In other news: damn I'm a P&P geek.

Ehm... yes... <_<
Well IF you consider it for flavor and funk, then storywise this would be a real slaughterfest of a battle.
When i remember how Halaster tried to save Elmister from the Nine Hells (or was it the Abyss? Dunno, the old fella gets almost everywhere into trouble ^^) and fought against a gazillion demons twice (!), but got pawned at the end by the masses. Well when we look that in D&D 3.5 ed rules, i dunno if they would have much possible spells against sooo many demons and devils....
BUT IF we would compare them by the newest rules (4th ed... ugh!  ) THEN the hoes of Mystra would be reaaally weak and very balanced in comparison to other fleshy, sqishy Mages  

But for me in 3rd ed Elmister, Simbul and co. werent THAT powerful, especially the old geezer had some different spells and this shiny light, but thats all....


Nothing can beat the Wind-Elemental Mage-Prestige class and -"insert D&D stuff-rulez i forgot :pinched:"-, who can
fly, shoot magic and fly again and that for biiiig distances

[Seagloom]

Quixal wrote...

Heh. I am particularly partial to arcanaloths myself. As for demons, I suppose I favor mariliths, with glabrezu coming in at a close second.

Yugoloths are an interesting idea in terms of where they fit in the pecking order. A little more complex than just the mercenaries representing the neutral ground between chaos and law in the lower planes.

Darn. You quoted me before I threw mariliths a nod. They're a personal favorite of mine. It's partly their appearance (I partly like Lillendi for that reason too, I guess). Mostly its their nature though. They're much more interesting to me than Balors which are such a blatant Tolkien ripoff.

Agreed on yugoloths. They are interesting... and they make great villains for a high level intrigue focused campaign. But they don't feel as iconic. Generally I don't find rank and file 'loths as interesting as their demonic counterparts for that reason. The higher ranking ones are a lot more interesting, but very difficult to run for me. I don't think my mind is capable of truly portraying the guile and scheming of a devil, let alone a yugoloth. :/ I do wish there was more material on them though. They are interesting... or were at least. 4e pretty much stole what uniqueness they had, sadly.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 mars 2010 - 03:16 .

[Seagloom]

Sarevok Anchev wrote...

Ehm... yes... <_<
Well IF you consider it for flavor and funk, then storywise this would be a real slaughterfest of a battle.
When i remember how Halaster tried to save Elmister from the Nine Hells (or was it the Abyss? Dunno, the old fella gets almost everywhere into trouble ^^) and fought against a gazillion demons twice (!), but got pawned at the end by the masses. Well when we look that in D&D 3.5 ed rules, i dunno if they would have much possible spells against sooo many demons and devils....
BUT IF we would compare them by the newest rules (4th ed... ugh!  ) THEN the hoes of Mystra would be reaaally weak and very balanced in comparison to other fleshy, sqishy Mages  

But for me in 3rd ed Elmister, Simbul and co. werent THAT powerful, especially the old geezer had some different spells and this shiny light, but thats all....


Nothing can beat the Wind-Elemental Mage-Prestige class and -"insert D&D stuff-rulez i forgot :pinched:"-, who can
fly, shoot magic and fly again and that for biiiig distances

That's true. The problem is it's hard to compare them based on lore alone. Their exploits, as Elminster in Hell shows, are often embellished to entertain a reader. I remember the Simbul showing up later and her being able to nuke almost as many devils as Mystra, despite being much weaker. It was kinda silly. I did like that they had to run away from Asmodeus like cowards after momentarily fazing him though.

If I go purely by lore however, then the Circle of Eight stands even less of a chance in my opinion, because the Chosen are all literally demigods. Even those among them that aren't mages like Storm or Dove can give a mundane mage, powerful though some may be, serious trouble with their silver fire alone. At least on Toril. I doubt it'd work on another plane. At least I wouldn't rule that it did, since the Weave doesn't exist elsewhere. I'll stop here though because these sort of comparisons have no real right answer.

[corebit]

True Neutral for me...