137 réponses à ce sujet

[Darnalak]

heh, I don't disagree with you, I think Shredder Ammo was put into the game so I'd never use Thane after he's loyal, but that's just my opinion.

[Jaekahn]

matt654321 wrote...

He lists 8 out of the 11 bonus powers. Shredder Ammo is definitely in the bottom 3. It's simple math.

The enemy rarely has only HP. That makes shredder ammo do nothing for at least some fraction of the time you're attacking it. If that number makes you lose over 10% DPR, it's worse. This is the case most of the time on any difficulty that you'd need a guide for.

The Shredder Ammo suggestion is more or less focused around Mantis being your primary Sniper pre-horizon. Early on in the game, the amount of damage output it deals, espacially without any upgrades to Sniper rifle, does not kill an organic in one shot. Therefore, the damage boost against organics in which you receive from Shredder can push the damage more and thus, aid you in killing them in one shot. I understand that AP ammo can do the same thing.

Also, none of the powers are a recommendation. I try to be as least bias as possible and focus on noting strategies and powers that could benefit players base on playstyle rather than favoritism. The reason why I list 8-11 is to shorten the guide as you can already notice its excessive length. The powers I excluded were shields and barriers, which, if I am not mistaken, does not stack with Cloak and are removed the moment you cloak. Also, shields are pretty self-explainatory so I felt that there were no reason to describe them anyways.

I want to stress that the guide is NOT a recommendation, but a description gifted with a summary of advantages and disadvantages, so I would appreciate if you don't call it that.

Modifié par Jaekahn, 04 mars 2010 - 08:18 .

[WillieStyle]

Why heavy cryo ammo? Does it do anything other than increase the duration of the cryo-freeze? If not, then why would you ever take heavy cryo over squad cryo? If you're shooting the enemy, then either you'll re-freeze it anyway, or you'll kill it. How many enemies survive for longer than 5 seconds under sustained fire once they're down to health?



Also, I really don't understand why anyone would take Enhanced Cloak over Tactical Cloak. The 2 extra seconds are useful sometimes, but can they really compare to 35% extra damage? I just don't see how that's possible.

[WillieStyle]

Jaekahn wrote...

The Shredder Ammo suggestion is more or less focused around Mantis being your primary Sniper pre-horizon. Early on in the game, the amount of damage output it deals, espacially without any upgrades to Sniper rifle, does not kill an organic in one shot. Therefore, the damage boost against organics in which you receive from Shredder can push the damage more and thus, aid you in killing them in one shot. I understand that AP ammo can do the same thing.

I don't think that's true.  A dev confirmed that bonus damage from ammo is calculated first.  So unless the enemy has no shields/barrier/armor, Shredder Ammo will increase your sniper rifle damage by pretty much 0%.

[Jaekahn]

WillieStyle wrote...

Why heavy cryo ammo? Does it do anything other than increase the duration of the cryo-freeze? If not, then why would you ever take heavy cryo over squad cryo? If you're shooting the enemy, then either you'll re-freeze it anyway, or you'll kill it. How many enemies survive for longer than 5 seconds under sustained fire once they're down to health?

Also, I really don't understand why anyone would take Enhanced Cloak over Tactical Cloak. The 2 extra seconds are useful sometimes, but can they really compare to 35% extra damage? I just don't see how that's possible.

If you're referring to the Agent build, i'll tell you why Heavy Cryo is more important then Squad. In addition to increasing the duration in which the target is frozen, it also allows you to freeze the target more quickly. When you're fighting a close quarters and when you're vulnerable to the enemy by stepping out of cloak, you would want to lockdown the target as fast as possible. This gives heavy cryo the edge over squad cryo. However, the difference between the two isn't that dramatic, so the decision all depends either on your playstyle or preference.

In relation to enhanced cloak and agent are both made for a longer duration and a shorter cooldown. The burst one may receive from Assassin is important indeed, but there are certain maps where you may not have all the time you would have wished while cloaked. shortening the cooldown also makes the power more frequent, providing you more opportunities to elude enemies trying to flank you or to travel from one end of the map to the other.

I want to stress something real quick. The Infiltrator has its dominant builds and then it's sub-par build. This guide is not designed to be a clear passage through Insanity, but an informative and descriptive guide meant to give you a better understanding about the Infiltrator class and to open your eyes to other perspectives. I note strategies, builds, playstyles, weapon preferences that would not be seen throughout the majority of Infiltrator players. Bioware has done a good job at balancing the game. Thus, opening up the possibility of playing the same class with different playstyles. This guide is meant for that reason.

Don't criticize the guide and say that it is inaccurate because I include the Viper, or because I include uses of enhanced cloak. Instead, appreciate the fact that I went into detail to provide you with such information that would open up the possibility to see the class in a different light.

Excuse me if I sound harsh, but it seems you guys are simply misinterpreting the purpose of the guide.

[Jaekahn]

WillieStyle wrote...

Jaekahn wrote...

The Shredder Ammo suggestion is more or less focused around Mantis being your primary Sniper pre-horizon. Early on in the game, the amount of damage output it deals, espacially without any upgrades to Sniper rifle, does not kill an organic in one shot. Therefore, the damage boost against organics in which you receive from Shredder can push the damage more and thus, aid you in killing them in one shot. I understand that AP ammo can do the same thing.

I don't think that's true.  A dev confirmed that bonus damage from ammo is calculated first.  So unless the enemy has no shields/barrier/armor, Shredder Ammo will increase your sniper rifle damage by pretty much 0%.

If I made a mistake, i'll fix it. Listing shredder ammo into the bonus power section is simply an attempt to shine some light on the power, rather than suggestion it. I never once noted that I suggest the power over any others. If I was bias towards any power, it would be Energy Drain.

[thisisme8]

WillieStyle wrote...

Why heavy cryo ammo? Does it do anything other than increase the duration of the cryo-freeze? If not, then why would you ever take heavy cryo over squad cryo? If you're shooting the enemy, then either you'll re-freeze it anyway, or you'll kill it. How many enemies survive for longer than 5 seconds under sustained fire once they're down to health?

Also, I really don't understand why anyone would take Enhanced Cloak over Tactical Cloak. The 2 extra seconds are useful sometimes, but can they really compare to 35% extra damage? I just don't see how that's possible.

Heavy Cryo may seem completely useless on paper, but it's not.  I've used both types on several characters and notice the difference and time immediately.  Heavy Cryo provides 7 seconds of freeze time, which is important for a character who uses it primarily as a complete lockdown tool.  In a perfect world, any enemy that you begin to shoot, you can continue to shoot until it's dead, but that just doesn't happen all the time.  The increase in duration is substantial for keeping the enemy frozen when moving in and out of cover while facing large groups of enemies.  All it takes is a couple of shots on health to freeze one or several enemies at a time.

Enhanced vs. Assasin's is simple.  With an SMG at close to med range, or the Viper at med to long range, you will inflict plenty of damage.  You can always do other things to damage enemies as well, like continuing to shoot.  You can't, however, remain cloaked for longer than 6s with Assassin's Cloak, which you can with Enhanced Cloak.  An extra two seconds is usually the difference between small position changes and extensive maneuvers as well as lining up perfect shots and tactically retreating/flanking/baiting.

[Besetment]

WillieStyle wrote...

Why heavy cryo ammo? Does it do anything other than increase the duration of the cryo-freeze? If not, then why would you ever take heavy cryo over squad cryo? If you're shooting the enemy, then either you'll re-freeze it anyway, or you'll kill it. How many enemies survive for longer than 5 seconds under sustained fire once they're down to health?

Also, I really don't understand why anyone would take Enhanced Cloak over Tactical Cloak. The 2 extra seconds are useful sometimes, but can they really compare to 35% extra damage? I just don't see how that's possible.

+35% damage is not that much. Check out the video I posted where I was rolling through Mordin's recruitment mission with +70% damage to armour and health from Tungsten rounds and Assassination Cloak for another 75% damage bonus. Gatsby did the same area in approximately the same time with squad Cryo which has no bonus damage. You may also notice that he fires less Widow shots than I do for the same clear time which sounds counterintuitive at first but he drops both Krogan with the SMG so it makes sense. Squad Cryo really lets him use the SMG with utter impunity. And then theres Thisisme8 who rolls through Horizon with Enhanced Cloak and SMG only near enough. He kills Horizon about as fast as I do but his build lets him do different things that I can't get away with.

If you compare the vid I posted with Gatsby's you'll see that it takes the same number of shots to kill a Vorcha (1) and it takes the same number of shots (4) to kill a Krogan (no upgrades). The only difference is that the last shot I do is massive overkill. I firmly believe that Tungsten Rounds and to an extent Assassination Cloak is redundant until you can stack damage bonuses from upgrades. The key upgrades are 3/5 Sniper Rifle since you can take another upgrade at that point that gives another +50% headshot damage. At that point you might start to save rounds and I can see Tungsten rounds and Assassination Cloak starting to pay off.

The difference is mostly in flavour. Thisisme8 plays way differently to me and thats possible because he builds for strong squad based CC with Cryo ammo and he uses Enhanced Cloak to tactically advance/retreat rather than for damage. I've tried squad Cryo and its a really good power that lets you get away with murder (literally) using the the SMG.

I really need to post some of my SMG failure runs without squad Cryo to illustrate this point because without the CC, every time you poke your head outside cover, everything on the screen just starts shooting you to pieces so you have to hide alot more and regen shields. You just do too little damage over time when you are constantly trying to keep yourself from dying.

I don't really think theres a whole lot you can get out of trying to squeeze a few damage bonuses here and there when playstyle makes the biggest difference along with how you advance through the levels and waypoint squadmates effectively. The different evolutions and builds just make it easier or more difficult to play a certain way but theres certainly no right or wrong way to play. The important bit is picking the right powers and evolving them the right way for your own style of play.

Hell, as much as people criticize the Viper, it is actually a good weapon and is useful on an Infiltrator. You just have to play really differently than a Widow Infiltrator because of the stagger and you need to pick cover differently because you spend alot more time scoped (sometimes long after the time dilation wears off).

Modifié par Besetment, 04 mars 2010 - 09:34 .

[WillieStyle]

+35% damage is not that much. Check out the video I posted where I was rolling through Mordin's recruitment mission with +70% damage to armour and health from Tungsten rounds and Assassination Cloak for another 75% damage bonus. Gatsby did the same area in approximately the same time with squad Cryo which has no bonus damage.

Squad Cry Ammo does have a damage bonus. Enemies take double damage when frozen. I understand why cryo ammo is useful. I undestand why squad cryo ammo is very useful. I'm simply asking why one would take Heavy Cryo over Squad Cryo.

If Heavy Cryo increases the chance that an enemy will become frozen, then I see why one would take it. If it just increases the duration of the freeze, then I can't see myself taking it over squad cryo ammo. Your milage may vary.

[WillieStyle]

It seems to me, a good strat would be to take squad Cryo ammo and something like Tungsten Ammo as your bonus skill. Drop AI hacking when you're not fighting Geth. Give your squadmates Squad Cryo Ammo and put Tungsten Ammo on your weapon. Then you get the best of both worlds as long as your squadmates stay alive.

Against Geth, you can drop Tungsten Ammo, Pickup AI hacking and just use Heavy Disruptor on your weapon.

[Besetment]

Not enough points to do that unless you drop Heavy Disruptor which is insanely useful versus mass mechs and YMIRs because of the chance to overload and overheat.

I think everyone in this thread plays on Insanity+ though which means you start with 50,000 eezo. Thats easily enough with a wee bit of planet scanning to respec every mission. On Collector missions for instance I'm seriously considering dropping Incinerate and respeccing with Reave instead. It'll trigger warp detonations which means you can drop Pull and haul in a different squadmate like Grunt. I used Grunt as a decoy on Horizon (without fortification no less!) since he has like 550 health and insane regen. You can use him to push forward and draw fire. Horizon was that key mission where you get to change your bonus power on completetion so I was stuck with Tungsten rounds and no way to really drop Barriers fast except Warp on Miranda. It was one of the few missions where I went all out SMG + Cryo and it ruled.

AI Hacking rules on mech heavy missions. I definitely need to play around with that some more and I've got no excuses this time because I'm just done with Horizon and I have like 90,000 eezo!

Modifié par Besetment, 04 mars 2010 - 10:01 .

[Besetment]

WillieStyle wrote...
If Heavy Cryo increases the chance that an enemy will become frozen, then I see why one would take it. If it just increases the duration of the freeze, then I can't see myself taking it over squad cryo ammo. Your milage may vary.

Definitely. The big advantage with squad Cryo is that you can freeze multiple enemies. Couple that with being able to panic enemies with Incinerate, CC with Pull and stun with Pull/Warp detonation and that has the effect of there being alot less bullets flying your way. Which means more time you can spend prancing out of cover naked as a jaybird shootin your SMG.

Then again I can see heavy Cryo having its uses but just haven't played around with it enough. Anyone here have this really painful moment where things are getting out of hand and a Krogan charges you? And you are frantically switching to SMG and you need just another 0.5 seconds for freeze to set in? Yeah thats happened to me a few times and I was greeted with the Resume game screen. Dont you just wish you had Heavy Cryo? Then theres alot that can be said about having more reliable single target freeze and long freeze duration. It makes it just that bit easier to actually charge down a Krogan yourself. The way I was set up for the Mordin's recruitment vid I just totally wasn't equipped to do things like that. I'll need to fiddle around with gibbed's save editor and cheat me some Heavy Cryo just to get revenge for all those charge deaths.

I totally didn't get Cryo until I went all out SMG for Horizon trying to do a Thisisme8 and failing utterly because I'm just taking way too much heat. Pun intended.

Modifié par Besetment, 04 mars 2010 - 10:13 .

[Cookie775]

Yeah Besetment, I've died a number of times because my target didn't freeze fast enough >< Another thing I noticed recently, you can't get into cover while switching weapons. I was swapping between sniper/smg and couldn't duck in, go smoked : /



Someone mentioned that Heavy Cryo ammo actually freezes targets FASTER, is that at all true? My new infiltrator is too low level to try it out yet.

[thisisme8]

I actually use the Viper quite a bit since it works for me and my Ammo Power.

[Darnalak]

hehehe Thisisme has a Phobia of being farther away from his target than 10 meters he uses his viper as a submachine gun.

[thisisme8]

A la Collector Ship Platforms vid!

[Jaekahn]

Besetment wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...
If Heavy Cryo increases the chance that an enemy will become frozen, then I see why one would take it. If it just increases the duration of the freeze, then I can't see myself taking it over squad cryo ammo. Your milage may vary.

Definitely. The big advantage with squad Cryo is that you can freeze multiple enemies. Couple that with being able to panic enemies with Incinerate, CC with Pull and stun with Pull/Warp detonation and that has the effect of there being alot less bullets flying your way. Which means more time you can spend prancing out of cover naked as a jaybird shootin your SMG.

Then again I can see heavy Cryo having its uses but just haven't played around with it enough. Anyone here have this really painful moment where things are getting out of hand and a Krogan charges you? And you are frantically switching to SMG and you need just another 0.5 seconds for freeze to set in? Yeah thats happened to me a few times and I was greeted with the Resume game screen. Dont you just wish you had Heavy Cryo? Then theres alot that can be said about having more reliable single target freeze and long freeze duration. It makes it just that bit easier to actually charge down a Krogan yourself. The way I was set up for the Mordin's recruitment vid I just totally wasn't equipped to do things like that. I'll need to fiddle around with gibbed's save editor and cheat me some Heavy Cryo just to get revenge for all those charge deaths.

I totally didn't get Cryo until I went all out SMG for Horizon trying to do a Thisisme8 and failing utterly because I'm just taking way too much heat. Pun intended.

I usually stay aware of my surroundings. Between sniper shots, I change my camera angle to monitor my flank. If someone's too close and I can't pick them off with my Rifle, I switch to the SMG. Either that, or I switch when my ammo's low. I hardly ever waste the last shot in the middle of the fight. So for me, heavy cryo wouldn't be that much of a problem.


I would like to thank everyone for talking amongst yourselves and discussing strategies. It gave me some ideas as to what else to include or remove in the guide. Sadly, I am tired and exhausted right now so I don't think I will be doing any editing or adding tonight. I will, however, discuss the class and guide with you guys as long as I am at my computer.

[rumination888]

The best condition for cryo is when enemies take a long time to take down. That means either you're doing low damage, your squad isn't helping you, and/or the enemy has a lot of red health.

With that in mind, I made a quick test to see how squad incendiary ammo fares against improved cryo ammo under the latters most optimal condition(thats right, improved cryo, not squad cryo).

Here's a vid of the two in action:
www.youtube.com/watch

This was done on Insanity against a Krogan, using a level 30 Infiltrator on NG+, no ally gunshots fired, and no weapon upgrades - one of the best possible scenarios for cryo ammo.

Conclude what you will.

[Atmosfear3]

rumination888 wrote...

The best condition for cryo is when enemies take a long time to take down. That means either you're doing low damage, your squad isn't helping you, and/or the enemy has a lot of red health.

With that in mind, I made a quick test to see how squad incendiary ammo fares against improved cryo ammo under the latters most optimal condition(thats right, improved cryo, not squad cryo).

Here's a vid of the two in action:
www.youtube.com/watch

This was done on Insanity against a Krogan, using a level 30 Infiltrator on NG+, no ally gunshots fired, and no weapon upgrades - one of the best possible scenarios for cryo ammo.

Conclude what you will.

Thats rather impressive how much more quickly cryo ammo killed the krogan than incendiary did though I'm sure we all knew that if we simply look at what incendiary actually does versus health.  I curious, do krogan and vorcha still regen if frozen but not attacked?

[rumination888]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Thats rather impressive how much more quickly cryo ammo killed the krogan than incendiary did though I'm sure we all knew that if we simply look at what incendiary actually does versus health.  I curious, do krogan and vorcha still regen if frozen but not attacked?

You're letting graphics fool you. Watch the ammo count. You'll note the Krogan died at pretty much the same time regardless of ammo. And no, they do not regen while frozen.

Modifié par rumination888, 05 mars 2010 - 01:44 .

[WillieStyle]

The disappointing thing about that video is how long it took for Cryo ammo to actually freeze the Krogen. That said, the fact that both ammo types took the same amount of time to kill him is a point in Cryo Ammo's favor. Inferno ammo didn't seem to crowd control the Krogen at all. He actually got a charge off against you.

[WillieStyle]

rumination888 wrote...

This was done on Insanity against a Krogan, using a level 30 Infiltrator on NG+, no ally gunshots fired, and no weapon upgrades - one of the best possible scenarios for cryo ammo.

No upgrades DOES NOT benefit Cryo Ammo more.
Ammo damage bonuses stack additively with weapon upgrades.
However, the double damage bonus from cryo-freeze stacks multiplicatively.
The more damage bonuses you have, the more valuable cryo-freeze becomes.
The more damage bonuses you have, the less valuable the damage bonus from any other ammo type becomes.

[WillieStyle]

rumination888 wrote...

Atmosfear3 wrote...

Thats rather impressive how much more quickly cryo ammo killed the krogan than incendiary did though I'm sure we all knew that if we simply look at what incendiary actually does versus health.  I curious, do krogan and vorcha still regen if frozen but not attacked?

You're letting graphics fool you. Watch the ammo count. You'll note the Krogan died at pretty much the same time regardless of ammo. And no, they do not regen while frozen.

It took you 65 rounds to kill him with Cryo Ammo and 70 rounds to kill him with Inferno Ammo.
If those numbers are statistically significant (I'm not sure they are) then a 7.7% effect damage advantage for Cryo Ammo is pretty impressive actually.

Scratch that. Inferno Ammo also does damage to armor while Cryo only freezes when enemies are down to health.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 05 mars 2010 - 02:27 .

[rumination888]

WillieStyle wrote...

The disappointing thing about that video is how long it took for Cryo ammo to actually freeze the Krogen. That said, the fact that both ammo types took the same amount of time to kill him is a point in Cryo Ammo's favor. Inferno ammo didn't seem to crowd control the Krogen at all. He actually got a charge off against you.

You're right, in that particular instance cryo ammo has the advantage since I didn't need to backpedal.
But you have to ask yourself, is that advantage better than the other advantages that other ammo types bring? Most notably, incendiary/disrupter?

WillieStyle wrote...

No upgrades DOES NOT benefit Cryo Ammo more.
Ammo damage bonuses stack additively with weapon upgrades.
However, the double damage bonus from cryo-freeze stacks multiplicatively.
The more damage bonuses you have, the more valuable cryo-freeze becomes.
The more damage bonuses you have, the less valuable the damage bonus from any other ammo type becomes.

Are you sure its a x2 modifier and not a +100% modifier?
Tungsten rounds against frozen targets will not do double damage.
Tungsten rounds with a weapon that has a x1.5 modifier against armor, on the other hand, will cause Tungsten rounds to deal x1.5 more damage.

[WillieStyle]

Are you sure its a x2 modifier and not a +100% modifier?

It was confirmed by a dev.