101 réponses à ce sujet

[Grovermancer]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you want to learn blood magic, make a deal with a demon. If you're playing a good guy then you don't get blood magic. There are choices and consquences; some of us call it role-playing.

That is not at all the point being made.  How is it "role-playing" when only a particular, artificial detailed choice can lead to you learning to become a Blood Mage, even though they're all throughout the damn story, even your friend is one from the beginning... 

...how is it "role playing" when you have to contrive the exact line of dialogue to get what, were you really that character in-universe, you could and would get so many other ways?  That's not 'natural' or immersive; you're not becoming a character or playing that role; you're jumping through a particular hoop just to get something that, were it done right, you could learn just by being 'evil' and your path would naturally take you there sooner or later.

[Archfiend]

you should be able to learn it from jowen i think, or even the mage at the end of the slavery line quest. there should be at lest 2 sources to each spec in the game

[_____o_O___]

Not really. Just save, give choice, reload. Specialization given without consequence...



I thought the Haven quest gave it if you are a mage as well if you side with one group of religious nuts over the other? I might be wrong though.

[javierabegazo]

It's nice to have work for some things in life, saving, buying and reloading to the those skill manuals were just too easy, Its good that they force you to experience a part of the game. If you're so unhappy about it, use the console, and if you're playing 360, well, now you know how i feel

[Haasth]

Mergad wrote...

lattimer viridian wrote...

I'm disappointed in us players who have forgetten about RP in RPGs. Be the evil character and unlock blood mage and reaver or be the good character who would not even think about being that class. Bioware has always allowed a good path and an evil path in their games. Play it twice, it's a worth while enough game.

I disagree with Blood Magic being evil. Just because it's originally from Old Gods, or Demons, a race of spirits that despise all that lives out of jelosy for not being alive in the world of flesh and blood (humans can go to foolish extents out of jelosy aswell., so no big difference there).

Merro, my mage isn't an evil mage. He helps people because it's beneficial, but also because he can. Blood Magic is merely a far more potent way of using magic against the Darkspawn to him, so you bet he'll go for it. He also looks at the Chantry's teachings with a distaste and disbelief, dismissing most of it as anti-magic propaganda and fear for the wonderous gift that is magic, granted to people to do things of greater magnitude.

But as to unlocking blood-magic, there could, or mayhap even should, be books in the Circle Tower, considering you can find them in the First Enchanters' study in the Mage Origin after escorting Duncan away. He says they'll be locked out somewhere safe and with the tower in turmoil and pretty much being ransacked by blood mages it'd only be logical that you'd find the said tomes somewhere while clearing the place out.  Of course, Wynne and Alistair would object, but in the chaos, who'd notice if you slip a few tomes into your bags, eh?

You sir, think alike.

you should be able to learn it from jowen i think, or even the mage at
the end of the slavery line quest. there should be at lest 2 sources to
each spec in the game

I agree. There should be multiple ways of achieving specializations. I personally think manuals are kind of stupid, just buy something and suddenly you got this knowledge over a new set of spells or talents? But fair enough. But I at least think there should be two ways of achieving it, in the case of Blood Magic... Blood Magic could be relatively easily achieved by doing the 'wrong' thing and making a pact with the demon. Now there should be a 'neutral' way of achieving it too, which should be more difficult and require more effort.

But right now I think there aren't enough consequences to specializations already. I'd like to see at least something like dialogue options related to your given specializations. To give an example I made in another post, I think you should be able to say... heal the wounded soldier in the Wilds (Near Ostagar) if you possess such abilities as a mage. Instead of letting Alistair bandage him up.

Modifié par Haasth, 17 novembre 2009 - 03:31 .

[Setz69]

A blood mage can only become a blood mage by making a deal with a demon. Books or other mages won't be able to help you. It wouldn't hurt to have some more chances to talk to demons though and use them to become a blood mage.

[Haasth]

Setz69 wrote...

A blood mage can only become a blood mage by making a deal with a demon. Books or other mages won't be able to help you. It wouldn't hurt to have some more chances to talk to demons though and use them to become a blood mage.

What exactly backs up this statement? Not trying to 'flame' here. But I am curious to know how you know this. As I really, really don't see Jowan making a pact with a demon.

[Setz69]

Hmm you could be right. I can only really find mention of it 'originating' from demons, and that 'most' mages make a pact with a demon to get it. So there could very well be powerful blood mages who can teach others the art.

[RazorrX]

Just a question: How do you know that Jowan did not contact a demon? He was to be neutered because he was a blood mage, not for lack of skill/talent. The books on Blood Magic could simply have led him to the proper way to contact the demon while in the fade.

[dannythefool]

That getting blood magic is only possible through a pact with a demon is said in many places in-game. However the same could be said about spirit healing.



The mind control argument doesn't work either. Regular mages without blood magic have much more than one mind control spell. Blood mages just have one more. Note that even regular mages can turn an enemy into an ally during battle. It's not as reliable as with blood magic, but there is no functional difference. And many of the other horrible things that mages do are available to all mages as well, such as raising the dead to fight alongside you. The game explains that the deal with blood magic is that you have more power available, but it also shows us that you just have to pool a handful of mages and you can still do the same spells.



It was said here earlier that Reaver is as restrictive as Blood Magic. I think it's different. You don't have to be a warrior to get it, but you can't bring all potential party members along to get it.

[Dussan2]

Isn't there a Tome on Bloodmagic? I could have sworn I saw one.

[Reiella]

Dussan2 wrote...

Isn't there a Tome on Bloodmagic? I could have sworn I saw one.

I've seen this claim a few times, and no I don't believe there is.

If there is, and you know the merchant however, please share.  The guide says the only way is the scene in Redcliffe.  It could be wrong though, but if you do spot it, please share where .

[JamesX]

There is no book for Blood Mage or Reaver. You have to do the Quest/Plot to get those.

[Allan Schumacher]

As a tech tester that joined the project late, I actually enjoyed the idea that to get something in the game, you had to do something of questionable morality. I was actually a bit disappointed when I learned that specializations unlock across an account, rather than just for that specific character, but I can understand why we wouldn't want to make things too restrictive.

The thing I like about the situation with the demon in the Fade, is that you as the player have to decide whether or not you are willing to make the choice. I found the whole situation with Connor to be really well done, and I enjoy the variety of ways you can deal with his situation, many of them not being particularly happy. The same goes with the situation in Orzammar.

When I read up that people have strong emotional reactions (positive or negative) at seeing the results of their actions perhaps not turn out the way that they would have liked or would have hoped, I think that we did something right. As a result, I find achieving the Reaver and Blood Mage specializations to be the most interesting ones to achieve. Especially if I'm roleplaying a good character that feels he can use blood magic for good. Can I sacrifice a child for the greater good?


As an avid RPG gamer that can find stuff to enjoy in games from Planescape: Torment to Fallout 3, I like it when games put me in situations where I have to make a decision like this.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 17 novembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[Archfiend]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As a tech tester that joined the project late, I actually enjoyed the idea that to get something in the game, you had to do something of questionable morality. I was actually a bit disappointed when I learned that specializations unlock across an account, rather than just for that specific character, but I can understand why we wouldn't want to make things too restrictive.

The thing I like about the situation with the demon in the Fade, is that you as the player have to decide whether or not you are willing to make the choice. I found the whole situation with Connor to be really well done, and I enjoy the variety of ways you can deal with his situation, many of them not being particularly happy. The same goes with the situation in Orzammar.

When I read up that people have strong emotional reactions (positive or negative) at seeing the results of their actions perhaps not turn out the way that they would have liked or would have hoped, I think that we did something right. As a result, I find achieving the Reaver and Blood Mage specializations to be the most interesting ones to achieve. Especially if I'm roleplaying a good character that feels he can use blood magic for good. Can I sacrifice a child for the greater good?


As an avid RPG gamer that can find stuff to enjoy in games from Planescape: Torment to Fallout 3, I like it when games put me in situations where I have to make a decision like this.

theres nothing wrong with the conner line (think its the best quest in the game) the problem lies in this is the only way to get BM. why couldnt the slaver teach it to you since he blows up a bunch of elves to give you 1 point of con. there are other places where you could learn it as well. the demon in the tower with her man is another good spot. on my 2nd run i killed conner so even if i had wanted BM it was now impossible. i could be wrong but cant only the main char as a mage learn it( first was a mage, had it unlocked so didnt care the 2nd time)? didnt think morrigan or wynn had the dialog options, where as anyone can unlock reaver.

personally i think killing conner is the more "evil" option yet you lose out getting BM in order to do it. going into the fade is the "nicer" option no matter what method you use.

Modifié par Archfiend, 17 novembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[Setz69]

Blood magic isn't necessarily evil. It requires you to sacrifice something in return for greater power. How you use that power is up to you. The whole aspect of blood magic is that you need to give to receive. Killing connor is evil, saving conner and killing the demon good, creating a pact with a demon for greater power, really is the grey line.



I tried to find a tome for blood magic aswell but couldn't find anything. Really you only hear about every blood mage having made a pact with some demon, never anything that says they MUST.

[Reiella]

Setz69 wrote...

Blood magic isn't necessarily evil. It requires you to sacrifice something in return for greater power. How you use that power is up to you. The whole aspect of blood magic is that you need to give to receive. Killing connor is evil, saving conner and killing the demon good, creating a pact with a demon for greater power, really is the grey line.

I tried to find a tome for blood magic aswell but couldn't find anything. Really you only hear about every blood mage having made a pact with some demon, never anything that says they MUST.

That is a rumor although.  And the nature of interaction with the Broken Circle makes me suspect not really something that comes from a demonic pact each and every time.  Jowan comes to mind, of course, coupled with the codex entries about Irving's Mistake.

[T0paze]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

When I read up that people have strong emotional reactions (positive or negative) at seeing the results of their actions perhaps not turn out the way that they would have liked or would have hoped, I think that we did something right. As a result, I find achieving the Reaver and Blood Mage specializations to be the most interesting ones to achieve. Especially if I'm roleplaying a good character that feels he can use blood magic for good. Can I sacrifice a child for the greater good?

While your question is no doubt interesting, I'd like to point out that a good character doesn't really have to sacrifice anyone to get the blood magic specialization. With high enough Coercion skill the demon can simply be intimidated into teaching blood magic. So, this is somewhat different from the Reaver specialization.

[kokocrush]

Ellzedd wrote...

The power comes from demons and not the warm fuzzy kind.

Ooh warm fuzzy demons - kindly elaborate - I'm interested now.

[tkaz85]

Desire demons can make you THINK they are warm and fuzzy...

[Kyrish]

Demons are not the only way to learn Blood Magic, lore-wise. I am pretty sure its the only way players can, and it may have only -come- from a demon at some point in time, but during the Mage Origin you learn that because of the fear going through the tower about a Blood Mage being among them, Greagoir orders Irving to take all the Blood Mage tomes out of the Library and stores them inside of his room. I believe they trigger a codex entry?

[Element CL]

The whole point of blood magic being "blood" magic is that you have to sacrifice a whole lot to use it. It's not flower magic, it's not smile magic, it's not hair magic, its blood magic. It uses blood. Blood is gained by bleeding or making others bleed. This kinds of actions alone, without the magic part, makes you a criminal and outlaw pretty much any decent person's standards... therefore... should you persue the use of blood magic, you must accept sacrificing certain kinds of people out of your life, whether because you need their blood, or simply because they think your a sick sadistic weirdo and that just aint their cup of tea.

[Tennmuerti]

The problem with BM specialisation is that not only it is very restrictive in terms of getting it, there is no ingame information that would point you towards a directon in which you could possibly obtain it. Pretty much anyone who wants their mage to be a blood mage HAS to search the forums or a wiki or a guide to find out the exact path and exact dialogue choices they have to make to unlock it. This is the problem I have with it. Even if you are roleplaying an evil or corrupt mage it is incredibly easy to miss your oportunity to learn BM. Why can't you ask any of the blood mages in the game:
"Hey guys how would one go about being a BM can you teach me?"
"Well you would need to enter the Fade at some point and make a deal with a demon"
Would that have been so hard?
I was very surprised that while being a mage doing the mage tower part of story never did an option come up to ask anyone about it.

[Tennmuerti]

Element CL wrote...

The whole point of blood magic being "blood" magic is that you have to sacrifice a whole lot to use it. It's not flower magic, it's not smile magic, it's not hair magic, its blood magic. It uses blood. Blood is gained by bleeding or making others bleed. This kinds of actions alone, without the magic part, makes you a criminal and outlaw pretty much any decent person's standards... therefore... should you persue the use of blood magic, you must accept sacrificing certain kinds of people out of your life, whether because you need their blood, or simply because they think your a sick sadistic weirdo and that just aint their cup of tea.

By your logic blood transfusion is bad.
Blood is nothing more then a liquid, if you do not abuse it blood magic can be used to only use some blood either from you or from some one else. Like any kind of power (example: guns) it is the use of power that is good or bad not the power itself.
Even from the game itself we can see that you do not need to sacrifice anything major to make use of blood magic, cut yourself up a bit, voila! It is only becouse so many mages abuse it and go overboard that it is feared and hated by others.

[Behindyounow]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you want to learn blood magic, make a deal with a demon. If you're playing a good guy then you don't get blood magic. There are choices and consquences; some of us call it role-playing.

Thats the thing. You're nevel told you'd be able to make a deal with the demon, and killing Connor is presented as the more evil choice. So choosing the evil choice, deprives you of evil abilities. Thats the part that I'm annoyed about.