101 réponses à ce sujet

[Lughsan35]

Behindyounow wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you want to learn blood magic, make a deal with a demon. If you're playing a good guy then you don't get blood magic. There are choices and consquences; some of us call it role-playing.

Thats the thing. You're nevel told you'd be able to make a deal with the demon, and killing Connor is presented as the more evil choice. So choosing the evil choice, deprives you of evil abilities. Thats the part that I'm annoyed about.

Ah you went to stupid evil school of getting what you want...

Why would you kill a child outright when you can use that child to manipulate his parent into doing whatever it is you want?



Good will triumph over Evil mostly because those who THINK they are Evil are just DUMB...

Modifié par Lughsan35, 24 novembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[dannythefool]

Behindyounow wrote...
Thats the thing. You're nevel told you'd be able to make a deal with the demon, and killing Connor is presented as the more evil choice. So choosing the evil choice, deprives you of evil abilities. Thats the part that I'm annoyed about.

Well, you still have to live with your conscience after making the deal with the demon, and essentially dooming Connor. But I agree that it's not presented as the more evil choice. Anyone who's killed Connor knows how many opportunities you're given to not kill him after all, and what you need to do before you can finally kill him. Even killing Isolde is presented as more evil than the demon deal itself. 

[Alphakiller]

Tennmuerti wrote...

The problem with BM specialisation is that not only it is very restrictive in terms of getting it, there is no ingame information that would point you towards a directon in which you could possibly obtain it. Pretty much anyone who wants their mage to be a blood mage HAS to search the forums or a wiki or a guide to find out the exact path and exact dialogue choices they have to make to unlock it. This is the problem I have with it. Even if you are roleplaying an evil or corrupt mage it is incredibly easy to miss your oportunity to learn BM. Why can't you ask any of the blood mages in the game:
"Hey guys how would one go about being a BM can you teach me?"
"Well you would need to enter the Fade at some point and make a deal with a demon"
Would that have been so hard?
I was very surprised that while being a mage doing the mage tower part of story never did an option come up to ask anyone about it.

... I found it quite on accident...
intimidated the demon into teaching it to me. Voila, Good mage, Blood Magic. win.

[Endurium]

Some thoughts even though I come to this late.

- I dislike how spec unlocks and achievements are global. My new characters don't have to do a darn thing because they already have all the specs! So much for RP. On the flip side, they rarely get any achievements because my first character got most of them. Where's the fun in that? Oh, that's right, Bioware had to make it global to simplify the online account thing I don't give a damn about and have completely disabled in game options.

- The game hints in various areas (codex, people) that blood magic originates with demons, which is why it's a dangerous path. It's not just Chantry dogma either; the blood mage Avernus (Warden's Keep DLC) isn't a Chantry believer yet he openly states demons know everything about blood magic because it originates with them. That's why he was researching the Darkspawn taint: to give himself an edge. Logically then, if you haven't found a mortal blood magic teacher, or book, and you have a chance to meet a demon, take it. You might just get what you're after. They are, after all, the authority on the matter. Think like a mage... this is an RPG after all.

- Killing Connor isn't the most evil way to go about it. Even in movies it is often said "Killing you would be too easy; I'm going to make you suffer!" or words to that effect. If you instead go to the demon, you can get her to leave Connor for a time, but later she will return, possibly once he's an adult. So the most evil route would be to sacrifice Isolde to get into the Fade, then make the deal for the demon to leave temporarily. Sure the kid's fine while you're there on the estate, but the epilogue should reveal an unhappy ending. Meanwhile the Arl has to deal with the death of his wife; both short term and long term woes for the family, courtesy of you.

Modifié par Endurium, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:40 .

[dannythefool]

Endurium wrote...
Killing Connor isn't the most evil way to go about it.

That's the entire point. It's not, yet it is presented as the most evil way and you will suffer worse repercussions during the game than from other ways. It's even presented as more evil than using blood magic to enter the fade, there is almost no measurable objection when you suggest it and Isolde will gladly go. With all the hate that blood magic gets in this game, it's hard to comprehend how outright killing a demon that has shown herself in her true form no less can be more evil, but the narrative makes it look like it is. I really don't get this, you've already shown you're willing to use a power obtained by making a deal with a demon to enter the fade, yet everybody trusts you not to make a deal again... but if you kill the demon where everybody can see you kill her, people scream bloody murder.
There is a similar situation in the Stone Prisoner DLC, where everybody reacts completely differently to pretty much the same situation you're in when you walk in on possessed Connor.

[Endurium]

We each have our learned responses to various things so there's bound to be disagreement. To me killing Connor was the most convenient way, not the most evil. I want the family to suffer, not my character. Isolde readily gives up her life because she wants Connor to be well; yes some women are that way believe it or not. I don't have all the conversations memorized, but I knew I wouldn't be satisfied with killing Connor outright even though it would have been an evil deed, no doubt. Better to kill the wife and let the son be possessed after he takes his father's place as Arl. Mwahaha. In this game it almost always pays to examine your options, and think them through, before making a choice.

I agree conversations can bounce about at bit, especially if you don't select responses in the 'proper' sequence. Have to step back sometimes and think about the situation before responding.

Edit: oops Connor ends up a mage so probably not Arl. In that case I imagine he'd become an abomination. Nasty.

Modifié par Endurium, 24 novembre 2009 - 11:58 .

[Thullon]

It really depends on how you judge right and wrong inside the game.
To follow the Maker would mean you think Blood Magic is inherently evil because the Maker says that magic fueled by blood is forbidden.
Even if that wasn't an issue, you've just gained powers from a demon. Demons are evil spirits.
The thought of good or evil always is judged by the laws that apply to the choices you make. Using the laws and beliefs of Ferelden, and to a greater extent the world, as a measuring stick: You would be judged evil regardless of your intentions.
It makes sense that you must do evil things to gain these specializations.

As far as what is most evil: killing Connor could be taken as an act of mercy. An act for the greater good. You have a handful of people there who don't want you to. You also have a country full of people who you could save by doing it.

Modifié par Thullon, 24 novembre 2009 - 12:05 .

[aebriol]

I unlocked all specializations except reaver when I played through. Reaver I completely missed it even being possible.

[Diomed]

All specs should be available at level one. The way the unlocks are handled is terrible and takes away from the fun of the game. I use cheats/exploits to open them up. I find the system Bioware has chosen to be cheap and annoying.

[archonambroseus]

Diomed wrote...

All specs should be available at level one. The way the unlocks are handled is terrible and takes away from the fun of the game. I use cheats/exploits to open them up. I find the system Bioware has chosen to be cheap and annoying.

The fail quotient of this thread just skyrocketed.  And that's saying something.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Curry Noodles wrote...

Blood mage really is too restrictive to unlock. I think you actually have to be a mage to unlock it, unlike pretty much every other specialization. The only other one that specific is Reaver, I think.

No. You just have to a mage in your party, and then send her into the Fade.

[cooldevo]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Curry Noodles wrote...

Blood mage really is too restrictive to unlock. I think you actually have to be a mage to unlock it, unlike pretty much every other specialization. The only other one that specific is Reaver, I think.

No. You just have to a mage in your party, and then send her into the Fade.

My first playthrough I sent Jowan into the fade.  I tried to talk to her, and Jown sayed that he needed to redeem himself and attack started.  I then reloaded and tried with Morrigan.  Same thing... she said something about not working with demons and a battle started.  Both time I tried to talk with the demon.  I even went on the web to find the exact conversation topics to use and still didn't work.  A few sites said you need to have a PC mage, and party members don't work.  And they haven't for me yet.

I'm working a PC mage up to get there and give it a shot and see if that will work.

[Endurium]

cooldevo wrote...

I'm working a PC mage up to get there and give it a shot and see if that will work.

It will. My mage did that a week ago and had all options available to her. She's not as narrow-minded as the companions tend to be.

[dannythefool]

cooldevo wrote...
 A few sites said you need to have a PC mage, and party members don't work.  And they haven't for me yet.

I've done this part with Wynne, Morrigan, Jowan and myself and the only time I was able to make the deal was with the PC mage. As a PC mage you get quite a lot of options in fact, you can also make a deal for some other favours the demon can grant you, not only blood magic.

[marshalleck]

Why would you just kill a kid when there may be a chance of making a deal with a demon in person.

Killing Connor is the Chaotic Stupid option and some of you took it. Deal with it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 novembre 2009 - 07:30 .

[Leg_lamp]

Your PC mage can both persuade the demon to teach you blood,magic, and also leave Connor alone forever. Cake, meet Eating It.



I guess the same isn't true if you play the scenario with a different NPC.

[sagevallant]

Here's what you do if you don't care about any sort of RP tactics. You save before you talk to the demon. Then you go forward, be evil, learn Blood Magic. Save this game in a different slot. Go back to the original save game, and play forward from there. Voila, you're a blood mage and the kid still gets to live. Ditto for the Reaver role.

[Jibekn]

This is strange.. My mage was a blood mage long before doing redcliff. Could the blood magic codex in the tower unlock it as well?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Jibekn wrote...

This is strange.. My mage was a blood mage long before doing redcliff. Could the blood magic codex in the tower unlock it as well?

No. You might have unlocked BM on a previous playthrough though. 

[FalloutBoy]

dannythefool wrote...

Endurium wrote...
Killing Connor isn't the most evil way to go about it.

That's the entire point. It's not, yet it is presented as the most evil way and you will suffer worse repercussions during the game than from other ways.

One of the things I love about this game is the fact that rarely is it clear what your best course of action should be. That works both ways. If you are trying to be the most evilest person ever, it is just as hard as trying to be good. The choices you make often don't work out the way you expected.

If you don't like how a situation played out, reroll and try something different. If you are just crying because you can't be an AW/BM like all the other kids at school, then deal with it.

[menasure]

well i ended up breaking in restricted sections in the tower with jowan, got him out of prison and everything, had a nice chat with a demon instead of killing her and such ... guess what? i've still not unlocked this ability while i'm playing the endgame and i really wanted this specialisation for my mage lol. on the other hand i did manage to turn alistair into a reaver muhaha but officially i'm a supposedly good archmage now .

[dannythefool]

marshalleck wrote...

Killing Connor is the Chaotic Stupid option and some of you took it. Deal with it.

No, it's not. This is the only place where someone actually wants you not to kill a demon outright. There are many good rp reasons for killing Connor.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Choices and consequences. I'd like for ALL specializations to only be unlocked through storyline actions, and do away with all these retarded books.

[IronVanguard]

Being able to learn if from Jowan may have been interesting.... but yes, I suppose that's just how the DA world turns, eh?

[Karmol]

anybody followed the desire demos with the option of discover the desire... and not with the blood mage path???