113 réponses à ce sujet

[Elastica]

Well, Harbinger said something along the lines of "we are your salvation through destruction", so I expect them to have a purpose beyond that of being the galactic big bad wolf.

[FlintlockJazz]

@Dhraconus the goal was not genocide it was to fight off an enemy that was invading. If Shepard intended to march the entire geth race into gas chambers then yes it was attempted genocide, but it was never given as an option to try and wipe them all out.

@MikaelJoe that is presumption and even if they were trying to whose to say the resultant being would have your mind? What gave them the right to mince you up without your permission? Besides, the reapers are obviously a dead end tech route, they got close to ascension but are now stuck in the reaper form with no further chance of progression, and the worst thing is that they are too blind to see it. That is why following in their path is the bad thing to do.

EDIT:  Also, I believe that most germans not only oppose that particular event in their history but have laws preventing it from being covered up or denied.  Also, they got the idea from the americans, who in turn got the idea from us (British), who were secretly performing genocide on other populations years before World War 2.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 04 mars 2010 - 03:45 .

[MikaelJoe]

Ok then, is Shepard a bad guy then? Shepard gets the power to wipe out the heretics. No matter how you put it, it is genocide. You either wipe them out or change their programming. You end them.

Also Legion said that each reaper is a nation so many minds occupy a reaper. How many minds were killed when the human reaper was destroyed. It was mentally developed enough to see Shepard as a threat to its own survival therefore it must have coherent thought.

[JRCHOharry]

Wow, i see indoctrination actually works!

[Computron2000]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote... Maybe it's just me because I am German and I despise the thought of Genocide, but thats me.

Call me racist but that made me LOL.

http://www.youtube.c...y1r4Pm8#t=1m45s

Not all Germans favored what Hitler did. i am disgusted by our history.

True there is much darkness in that history, but there were lights in that darkness as well. Sophia Scholl was 1 such.

on the original topic, it does not matter if the Reapers are of "kind" intentions on a galactic scale. When threatened, the first instinct is to flee and when flight is impossible, to find. Nothing is fiercer than any animal with no escape.

[FlintlockJazz]

Maviarab wrote...

Flintlock...

So in your opinion, mass murder (of an enemy) is not genocide? Hmmm....interesting...

First off, its not mass murder if during war, if you don't shoot the enemy then they will kill you, its self defense.  Otherwise you would be guilty of association yourself since you (presumably) pay taxes that go to pay for those bullets that those soldiers use.

Second, mass murder is not genocide unless it results in the entire race being wiped out.  There is a difference between genocide (the wiping out of an entire race or species) and mass murder (killing a large group of people), well...

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 04 mars 2010 - 03:56 .

[Vaenier]

Shepard can commit genocide 3 times in ME so far. He can kill all the Rachni; he can kill the Heretics; he does kill the Thorian.

Does this make Shep evil? [hint: no...]



Collectors/Protheans dont count. They were just mindless husks when Shep killed them.

Modifié par Vaenier, 04 mars 2010 - 04:00 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaenier wrote...

Shepard can commit genocide 3 times in ME so far. He can kill all the Rachni; he can kill the Heretics; he does kill the Thorian.
Does this make Shep evil? [hint: no...]

Actually, if he kills the rachni, you could argue yes it does.  Whatever the actions of her species had been, the rachni queen herself had not done anything to warrant execution, in fact she was a victim of the corporation and its employees, being held against her will, and so killing her is in essence murder.  Even my renegade Shep will not kill her (partly to spite the council), since she is innocent.

The thorian on the other hand had invaded the minds and bodies of its victims and attempted to murder you, so while it was genocide it was genocide in self-defense and in defense of others.

The heretic geth, even if you kill them all is no genocide.  The heretics are not a separate species, they are a political faction within the geth species, it would be like killing off the Labour party, despite what some may think they are not some separate race but a group, hence mass murder.

[Tibilicus]

Yer, all good guys like to commit genocide and wipe the Galaxy of advanced civilization every 50,000 years..



It's not a matter of not being able to comprehend their purpose, there can't possibly be a good end to justify their means.

[El Spork-o]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Shepard can commit genocide 3 times in ME so far. He can kill all the Rachni; he can kill the Heretics; he does kill the Thorian.
Does this make Shep evil? [hint: no...]

Actually, if he kills the rachni, you could argue yes it does.  Whatever the actions of her species had been, the rachni queen herself had not done anything to warrant execution, in fact she was a victim of the corporation and its employees, being held against her will, and so killing her is in essence murder.  Even my renegade Shep will not kill her (partly to spite the council), since she is innocent.

The thorian on the other hand had invaded the minds and bodies of its victims and attempted to murder you, so while it was genocide it was genocide in self-defense and in defense of others.

The heretic geth, even if you kill them all is no genocide.  The heretics are not a separate species, they are a political faction within the geth species, it would be like killing off the Labour party, despite what some may think they are not some separate race but a group, hence mass murder.

Last I looked, the definition of genocide does include political and religious groups. So, the heritic geth (being both, sort of) would indeed be a genocide, by the technical definition.

Modifié par El Spork-o, 04 mars 2010 - 04:09 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Maviarab wrote...

gen·o·cide   /
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Origin:
1940–45;

—Related forms
gen·o·cid·al, adjective


I think you will find by its very definition, war is irrelevent, if you slaughter a whole load people, war or not, you have committed an act of genocide...

So if you wipe out a race of alien beings, based upon the assumption, well they are the enemy and its war, I got my bases covered, you would make one hell of a politician...because your talking rubbish.

I've highlighted the important bits, Shepard is not attempting to exterminate the entire geth race or even nation, he is fighting an invading force, so you would make a better politician there mate, taking the very thing that proves you wrong and trying to twist it to suit your own ends.  And I thought we could debate this civilly...

[maikanix]

Elastica wrote...

Well, Harbinger said something along the lines of "we are your salvation through destruction", so I expect them to have a purpose beyond that of being the galactic big bad wolf.

Right. It seems that the Reapers are, for some reason, harvesting races and turning their genetic material into new reapers in order to preserve them. Because something ELSE is going to happen if they continue to exist. Something, perhaps, to do with the dying sun that no one could explain.

[Vaenier]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Shepard can commit genocide 3 times in ME so far. He can kill all the Rachni; he can kill the Heretics; he does kill the Thorian.
Does this make Shep evil? [hint: no...]

Actually, if he kills the rachni, you could argue yes it does.  Whatever the actions of her species had been, the rachni queen herself had not done anything to warrant execution, in fact she was a victim of the corporation and its employees, being held against her will, and so killing her is in essence murder.  Even my renegade Shep will not kill her (partly to spite the council), since she is innocent.

To play devils advocate: She could be lieing. Her 'children' have tried to kill you many times. They killed dozens of workers. Maybe she is just trying to get you to let her out so she can restart the Rachni campaign of galactic genocide.

I dont believe any of this, just playing devils advocate out of boredum.

The heretic geth, even if you kill them all is no genocide.  The heretics are not a separate species, they are a political faction within the geth species, it would be like killing off the Labour party, despite what some may think they are not some separate race but a group, hence mass murder.

gen·o·cide
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

The Heretics are a political/cultural/national group.

[Dhraconus]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

gen·o·cide   /
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Origin:
1940–45;

—Related forms
gen·o·cid·al, adjective


I think you will find by its very definition, war is irrelevent, if you slaughter a whole load people, war or not, you have committed an act of genocide...

So if you wipe out a race of alien beings, based upon the assumption, well they are the enemy and its war, I got my bases covered, you would make one hell of a politician...because your talking rubbish.

I've highlighted the important bits, Shepard is not attempting to exterminate the entire geth race or even nation, he is fighting an invading force, so you would make a better politician there mate, taking the very thing that proves you wrong and trying to twist it to suit your own ends.  And I thought we could debate this civilly...

Except for the whole "hunting down pockets of Geth that remain in the galaxy between ME1 and the start of ME2, sure.  But It's made quite clear Shepard is Deliberately and systematically wiping out Geth.

[Jagri]

Nevermind the defination of genocide has already been posted. But I don't think AI is considered alive truely to begin with...

Modifié par Jagri, 04 mars 2010 - 04:14 .

[FlintlockJazz]

El Spork-o wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Shepard can commit genocide 3 times in ME so far. He can kill all the Rachni; he can kill the Heretics; he does kill the Thorian.
Does this make Shep evil? [hint: no...]

Actually, if he kills the rachni, you could argue yes it does.  Whatever the actions of her species had been, the rachni queen herself had not done anything to warrant execution, in fact she was a victim of the corporation and its employees, being held against her will, and so killing her is in essence murder.  Even my renegade Shep will not kill her (partly to spite the council), since she is innocent.

The thorian on the other hand had invaded the minds and bodies of its victims and attempted to murder you, so while it was genocide it was genocide in self-defense and in defense of others.

The heretic geth, even if you kill them all is no genocide.  The heretics are not a separate species, they are a political faction within the geth species, it would be like killing off the Labour party, despite what some may think they are not some separate race but a group, hence mass murder.

Last I looked, the definition of genocide does include political and religious groups. So, the heritic geth (being both, sort of) would indeed be a genocide, by the technical definition.

Yes, that is true, wrong with that bit.  However, its not entirely clear if its the wiping out of the entire heretic faction or just the ones on that base, if it is then he is committing genocide.

[El Spork-o]

maikanix wrote...

Elastica wrote...

Well, Harbinger said something along the lines of "we are your salvation through destruction", so I expect them to have a purpose beyond that of being the galactic big bad wolf.

Right. It seems that the Reapers are, for some reason, harvesting races and turning their genetic material into new reapers in order to preserve them. Because something ELSE is going to happen if they continue to exist. Something, perhaps, to do with the dying sun that no one could explain.

The idea of preservation was brought up before in this thread

http://social.biowar...index/1063041/1

Thought there were some interesting ideas (for and against) in there.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dhraconus wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

gen·o·cide   /
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Origin:
1940–45;

—Related forms
gen·o·cid·al, adjective


I think you will find by its very definition, war is irrelevent, if you slaughter a whole load people, war or not, you have committed an act of genocide...

So if you wipe out a race of alien beings, based upon the assumption, well they are the enemy and its war, I got my bases covered, you would make one hell of a politician...because your talking rubbish.

I've highlighted the important bits, Shepard is not attempting to exterminate the entire geth race or even nation, he is fighting an invading force, so you would make a better politician there mate, taking the very thing that proves you wrong and trying to twist it to suit your own ends.  And I thought we could debate this civilly...

Except for the whole "hunting down pockets of Geth that remain in the galaxy between ME1 and the start of ME2, sure.  But It's made quite clear Shepard is Deliberately and systematically wiping out Geth.

Hunting down pockets of geth resistance, there is no attempt to go behind the perseus veil to kill them on their home territory, it is the wiping out of geth incursion, that is also made pretty clear.

[Onyx Jaguar]

This thread is now about Genocide



The rachni really can't be counted as Genocide but since Shepard was systematically targeting Geth, then later the Heretics it does count. Specifically since Shepard was not at war with the Heretics in ME 2.