113 réponses à ce sujet

[El Spork-o]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

El Spork-o wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Shepard can commit genocide 3 times in ME so far. He can kill all the Rachni; he can kill the Heretics; he does kill the Thorian.
Does this make Shep evil? [hint: no...]

Actually, if he kills the rachni, you could argue yes it does.  Whatever the actions of her species had been, the rachni queen herself had not done anything to warrant execution, in fact she was a victim of the corporation and its employees, being held against her will, and so killing her is in essence murder.  Even my renegade Shep will not kill her (partly to spite the council), since she is innocent.

The thorian on the other hand had invaded the minds and bodies of its victims and attempted to murder you, so while it was genocide it was genocide in self-defense and in defense of others.

The heretic geth, even if you kill them all is no genocide.  The heretics are not a separate species, they are a political faction within the geth species, it would be like killing off the Labour party, despite what some may think they are not some separate race but a group, hence mass murder.

Last I looked, the definition of genocide does include political and religious groups. So, the heritic geth (being both, sort of) would indeed be a genocide, by the technical definition.

Yes, that is true, wrong with that bit.  However, its not entirely clear if its the wiping out of the entire heretic faction or just the ones on that base, if it is then he is committing genocide.

Well, I thought Legion makes it pretty clear that all the Heritics will eventually be effected, as soon as they rejoin the network. So there's that.

In terms of ME1, though, while Shepard is systematically hunting down Geth, he's only doing it in Council/Alliance space. At the time, it was not know that the Geth beyond the veil were different from the ones behind it, so it's not like they were making an effort to kill ALL the Geth.

Edit: Damnit I type to slow.

Modifié par El Spork-o, 04 mars 2010 - 04:17 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Vaenier wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Shepard can commit genocide 3 times in ME so far. He can kill all the Rachni; he can kill the Heretics; he does kill the Thorian.
Does this make Shep evil? [hint: no...]

Actually, if he kills the rachni, you could argue yes it does.  Whatever the actions of her species had been, the rachni queen herself had not done anything to warrant execution, in fact she was a victim of the corporation and its employees, being held against her will, and so killing her is in essence murder.  Even my renegade Shep will not kill her (partly to spite the council), since she is innocent.

To play devils advocate: She could be lieing. Her 'children' have tried to kill you many times. They killed dozens of workers. Maybe she is just trying to get you to let her out so she can restart the Rachni campaign of galactic genocide.

True, but then wouldn't the proper course of action be to take her to trial then? 

Vaenier wrote...
I dont believe any of this, just playing devils advocate out of boredum.

Yep, and its fun to debate stuff!

[Remus Artega]

It would pretty nice to have some fatal decision at the end of ME3 after you find out what the reapers are really after...maybe Sheppard will have to understand them... there is a big place for imagination...

[FlintlockJazz]

Maviarab wrote...

Yes, that is true, wrong with that bit. However, its not entirely clear if its the wiping out of the entire heretic faction or just the ones on that base, if it is then he is committing genocide.

Legion quite clearly states that the program/virus will spread throughtout the 'geth' and that all the heretics will be rewrittten. So yes as you say, it is an act of genocide, no matter which way you wish to interpet it.

Thus we have a moral dilemma, like I said in my first post, there at times, on rare occasions that genocide is acceptable and serves a purpose....whether it is right or not is entirely another matter.

Rewriting them could be argued as not genocide, since you are not actually killing anyone, you are brainwashing them.  You have the option to commit genocide if the base contains all the heretic geth, but even that could be more a motivation of getting rid of the virus as opposed to wantingly commiting genocide (depends on the player).

So yes, there is a case for genocide being necessary, but as a defense not a purpose, and it is still one of the worst things you can do.

[Gabey5]

with the geth we are moving into qurian territory... the geth are better allies if you had to choose in the end

[FlintlockJazz]

Gabey5 wrote...

with the geth we are moving into qurian territory... the geth are better allies if you had to choose in the end

*Smacks Gabey5*

No!  Bad Gabey!  No bringing that discussion in here!  I know what you're up to!

*Talimancer enters thread*: "Did someone mention Quarians?"

Damnit, now look what you've done!

[El Spork-o]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Maviarab wrote...

Yes, that is true, wrong with that bit. However, its not entirely clear if its the wiping out of the entire heretic faction or just the ones on that base, if it is then he is committing genocide.

Legion quite clearly states that the program/virus will spread throughtout the 'geth' and that all the heretics will be rewrittten. So yes as you say, it is an act of genocide, no matter which way you wish to interpet it.

Thus we have a moral dilemma, like I said in my first post, there at times, on rare occasions that genocide is acceptable and serves a purpose....whether it is right or not is entirely another matter.

Rewriting them could be argued as not genocide, since you are not actually killing anyone, you are brainwashing them.  You have the option to commit genocide if the base contains all the heretic geth, but even that could be more a motivation of getting rid of the virus as opposed to wantingly commiting genocide (depends on the player).

So yes, there is a case for genocide being necessary, but as a defense not a purpose, and it is still one of the worst things you can do.

That raises a point I hadn't thought of. Legion says that if you use the virus, all the Heritics would eventually be effected when they rejoined the network. This implies that there are Heretics not on the base. If I'm remembering correctly, that would make the Paragon option of using the virus a complete genocide, as it would effectively destroy an entire religious group (even if the sapient critters themselves are still alive, the group is gone) and the Renegade option of destroying the base a partial genocide, as there are still Heretic Geth out there somewhere. Interesting.

[Gabey5]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

with the geth we are moving into qurian territory... the geth are better allies if you had to choose in the end

*Smacks Gabey5*

No!  Bad Gabey!  No bringing that discussion in here!  I know what you're up to!

*Talimancer enters thread*: "Did someone mention Quarians?"

Damnit, now look what you've done!

*closes can of worms*

[FlintlockJazz]

El Spork-o wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Rewriting them could be argued as not genocide, since you are not actually killing anyone, you are brainwashing them.  You have the option to commit genocide if the base contains all the heretic geth, but even that could be more a motivation of getting rid of the virus as opposed to wantingly commiting genocide (depends on the player).

So yes, there is a case for genocide being necessary, but as a defense not a purpose, and it is still one of the worst things you can do.

That raises a point I hadn't thought of. Legion says that if you use the virus, all the Heritics would eventually be effected when they rejoined the network. This implies that there are Heretics not on the base. If I'm remembering correctly, that would make the Paragon option of using the virus a complete genocide, as it would effectively destroy an entire religious group (even if the sapient critters themselves are still alive, the group is gone) and the Renegade option of destroying the base a partial genocide, as there are still Heretic Geth out there somewhere. Interesting.

Thats a good point, Legion's loyalty mission is seriously messed up there, though being a renegade shouldn't have to include genocide anyway, it doesn't fit with paragon either.  Weird.

[FlintlockJazz]

Gabey5 wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

with the geth we are moving into qurian territory... the geth are better allies if you had to choose in the end

*Smacks Gabey5*

No!  Bad Gabey!  No bringing that discussion in here!  I know what you're up to!

*Talimancer enters thread*: "Did someone mention Quarians?"

Damnit, now look what you've done!

*closes can of worms*

Good!  Now help me keep these doors closed before the talimancers break through!

Talimancers: "Are they talking about Tali in there?" "I heard them mention quarians." "Then its definite then, Tali is in there!"

[Onyx Jaguar]

This thread is now about Tali



Yes it is.

[Remus Artega]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

El Spork-o wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Rewriting them could be argued as not genocide, since you are not actually killing anyone, you are brainwashing them.  You have the option to commit genocide if the base contains all the heretic geth, but even that could be more a motivation of getting rid of the virus as opposed to wantingly commiting genocide (depends on the player).

So yes, there is a case for genocide being necessary, but as a defense not a purpose, and it is still one of the worst things you can do.

That raises a point I hadn't thought of. Legion says that if you use the virus, all the Heritics would eventually be effected when they rejoined the network. This implies that there are Heretics not on the base. If I'm remembering correctly, that would make the Paragon option of using the virus a complete genocide, as it would effectively destroy an entire religious group (even if the sapient critters themselves are still alive, the group is gone) and the Renegade option of destroying the base a partial genocide, as there are still Heretic Geth out there somewhere. Interesting.

Thats a good point, Legion's loyalty mission is seriously messed up there, though being a renegade shouldn't have to include genocide anyway, it doesn't fit with paragon either.  Weird.

 It just proves that this game is not as normal life only black/white

[jklinders]

Sure alll indications show that the Reapers are doing their little extermination runs "for our own good". I think that is what we tell the dog or cat before we take them to the vet to get fixed. Given the purpose of the collector base(make new reapers out of the genetic goo of sapient species) it's clear they think they are offering immortality though destruction.
They seem to think this is some kind of high complement.

Problem is we are not being asked, and no one likes to be buggered without at least being asked nicly first. hell a nice dinner beforehand wouldn't be out of line either. Bottom line, if you don't mind losing your free will to the machine, line up for your turn at the goo tube. If you value free will, fight with everything you have. Maybe this is what the story is really about, free will vs subjugation to conformity.

Bah, now I am reading too much into this.

[Archereon]

The Reapers somehow being the good guys somehow could be an amazing plot twist, if done right. Despite their talent though, I don't think even the bioWare writers can justify the evil's of the Reapers enough to make them heros. They could be made morally ambiguous though, here's my idea for that...



The Reapers were once a race quite like the current species of mass effect, except that they originated billions of years before even the oldest ME races, and are from a different galaxy. Being significantly of technologies such as genetic engineering and artificial intelligence than races in present times, the original Reapers eventually came across the concept of mind uploading. Once the technology was perfected, it was commonplace for members of the species that became the Reapers to link themselves to mechanical forms more suitable to their current task on a regular basis. The physical body of the Reapers eventually became something of a sentimental keepsake. As it was now possible for the Reapers to wage war without suffering any casualties (soldiers no longer went into battle personally, but uploaded themselves into warships or mechanized combat units), the Reapers came to control their entire galaxy. Without peer or rival in their galaxy, and only the occasional revolt from conquered civilizations to deal with, the Reapers searched for a means to travel to other galaxies.



Though it took generations (generations for species that had not engineering themselves to be virtually immortal that is), this technology was eventually perfected, enormous versions of the mass relays used for convenient travel within the galaxy soon became the means for traveling outside of it. With the means to travel anywhere in the universe within a blink of the eye, the Reapers wandered the stars for eons, and came to control dozens of galaxies, including the Milky Way.



For any primitive civilization that the Reapers might find, their arrival was like the arrival of a benevolent god, millions of years of supremacy had calmed the warlike species that had once turned their galaxy red with the blood of a thousand lesser civilizations. The Reapers would give primitive species small tastes of their technology, and in exchange, the civilizations were allowed to do as they pleased with it, becoming a source of amusement for their benefactors.



In the span of a single day however, all of this changed. An intergalactic relay connected to a yet uncharted galaxy suddenly vanished without a trace. Over the next few years, dozens of the Reaper's pet civilizations vanished just as completely. For the first time in a billion years, the Reapers were up against something they could not fully understand: A wholly biological race, as advanced as them, but with one great advantage: A power over biological organisms so perfect, even races without nervous systems were at risk of becoming their pawns. At first, the emergence of these creatures, the Pestilence (for lack of a better name) as they were called by the Reapers, was seen as a welcome challenge, after all, it had been eons since the Reapers had engaged a worthy enemy in combat, but as the Pestilence batted aside the resistance, bloodthirst soon subsided.



Over the next millennia, the Pestilence all but consumed the Reaper Empire, leaving only their home galaxy standing. To prevent the fleets of soldiers uploaded to warships falling under the control of the Pestilence, a general order was issued to the entire empire to permanently upload all consciousnesses to mechanical forms.



Unfortunately, because of the destruction wreaked the Pestilence, too few forms suitable for permanent uploads remained to house the entire Reaper population, and it became necessary for single ship banks to store thousands or even millions of consciousnesses. Cooperation in such large communities was nearly impossible at first, but after mere centuries in dark space, the void between galaxies that the Reapers fled to once their home-world fell, near perfect unity was achieved within individual ships.



But it was apparent to the Reapers that they could not hide forever from the Pestilence. Eventually, if they did not intervene, their enemy would find a species capable of reaching them in Dark Space, and all would be lost. Therefore, it was deemed necessary to cull all organic civilizations to prevent them from becoming a potential asset to the Pestilence against the Reapers.

[El Spork-o]

I think one of the main themes in the ME universe is Free Will vs Predestination. With a heavy focus on the former being the better option. One of the game's main schticks is the whole 'Every Choice has Consequences" thing.

[jklinders]

El Spork-o wrote...

I think one of the main themes in the ME universe is Free Will vs Predestination. With a heavy focus on the former being the better option. One of the game's main schticks is the whole 'Every Choice has Consequences" thing.

Oh good, I thought I was the only one thinking along those lines. maybe I am not as out to lunch as I thought.

[El Spork-o]

jklinders wrote...

El Spork-o wrote...

I think one of the main themes in the ME universe is Free Will vs Predestination. With a heavy focus on the former being the better option. One of the game's main schticks is the whole 'Every Choice has Consequences" thing.

Oh good, I thought I was the only one thinking along those lines. maybe I am not as out to lunch as I thought.

No, but it causes some cognative dissonence when you realize that Shepard's story is essentially already written, and all the free-will and decision making you exhibit is within the scope defined for you by the designers of the game. Wrap your head around that one.

[jklinders]

El Spork-o wrote...

jklinders wrote...

El Spork-o wrote...

I think one of the main themes in the ME universe is Free Will vs Predestination. With a heavy focus on the former being the better option. One of the game's main schticks is the whole 'Every Choice has Consequences" thing.

Oh good, I thought I was the only one thinking along those lines. maybe I am not as out to lunch as I thought.

No, but it causes some cognative dissonence when you realize that Shepard's story is essentially already written, and all the free-will and decision making you exhibit is within the scope defined for you by the designers of the game. Wrap your head around that one.

Happily, I am playing a game using someone else's created character set up in such a way as to provide the illusion of free will and control. So long as I am willing to suspend my disbelief(Bioware helps with excellent writing) I am happy to be willingly falsely fooled.

[Aetas Mutuo]

The term genocide is has been thrown around a lot in this thread. I believe that genocide is wrong, as do most people. But the traditional definition of genocide does not match what the reapers do roughly every 50 millennia. They wipe out or harvest an entire species which is even more radical than those that commit genocide. Genocide would be akin to killing those that do not agree with reapers or a certain ethnic group within a race/species. Removing the existence an entire species is more than just genocide.
 
The reapers kill or consume all sentient life. Thoroughly, systematically and in a nightmare fashion they find them all. Even the races that are not turned into reapers are no longer allowed to evolve, grow or engage in free thought. They are slaves to the reapers will. The reapers are powerful enough and advanced enough to coexist with other sentient species; they choose not to and act like apocalyptic space calamari. It is not about good or evil at that point, it is all about survival. I am sure that the current races will have to engage in some morally questionable actions if any of them are to survive.

[SuperZombieChow]

Tibilicus wrote...

Yer, all good guys like to commit genocide and wipe the Galaxy of advanced civilization every 50,000 years..

It's not a matter of not being able to comprehend their purpose, there can't possibly be a good end to justify their means.

Using this quote, because I like it as a springboard. Really though it's a response to the whole thread.

What about dark energy? We all assume it's going to be some anti-reaper weapon, but in reality it could be the reaper's motivation. Advanced races use some form of FTL travel and communication. This causes a build up of dark energy and advances the heat death of the universe. The original species that became the first reaper observed this and realized that, if allowed to progress unchecked, advanced species would end up destroying every chance for life in the galaxy.

So the reapers give the galaxy 50,000 year increments. In this time, any races in existence are allowed to enjoy their time in the sun. Make war, make peace, make settlements, whatever their heart desires. At the end of this time, the reapers convert any species with the genetic potential to be saved into one of them, an immortal monument to the species that once was, and wipe the slate clean so that NEW life can have their turn. Even those races who don't meet the genetic requirements to successfully be reaperized (assuming the genetic diversity requirement is a limitation of the tech and not an arbitrary "you must be THIS diverse to ride the reaper") continue on in a form that works on the lowest energy possible, facilitating the continuation of a cycle that keeps the galaxy in equilibrium. Once they are done, the reapers enter dark space and basically kill time for millenia, careful to ensure that they do not contribute to the dark energy buildup.

Kind of explains the "Human Reaper" at the end of the game (with a bit of stretching). The reaper "pilot" isn't there for some tactical reason, it's there as a kind of statue, showing what the race originally looked like. This form would be encased in the reaper tactical shell, and the species would enter a unified mind nivana-esque state transcending mortal comprehension (the ultimate reward in some real life religions).

This is all rampant speculation, of course, but it's the best motivation I can come up with that casts the reapers in a positive light.

EDIT: I don't care for the "Reapers saving us from another SCARIER race" alternative. If it's that simple the reapers would be better off arming us or warning us. In my opinion they have to be saving us from ourselves (or at least saving the galaxy from us) to seem sympathetic. If they are stopping us from being harvested by something else they are just covering their own giant, metallic backsides.

Modifié par SuperZombieChow, 04 mars 2010 - 05:33 .

[El Spork-o]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

Tibilicus wrote...

Yer, all good guys like to commit genocide and wipe the Galaxy of advanced civilization every 50,000 years..

It's not a matter of not being able to comprehend their purpose, there can't possibly be a good end to justify their means.

Using this quote, because I like it as a springboard. Really though it's a response to the whole thread.

What about dark energy? We all assume it's going to be some anti-reaper weapon, but in reality it could be the reaper's motivation. Advanced races use some form of FTL travel and communication. This causes a build up of dark energy and advances the heat death of the universe. The original species that became the first reaper observed this and realized that, if allowed to progress unchecked, advanced species would end up destroying every chance for life in the galaxy.

So the reapers give the galaxy 50,000 year increments. In this time, any races in existence are allowed to enjoy their time in the sun. Make war, make peace, make settlements, whatever their heart desires. At the end of this time, the reapers convert any species with the genetic potential to be saved into one of them, an immortal monument to the species that once was, and wipe the slate clean so that NEW life can have their turn.

Kind of explains the "Human Reaper" at the end of the game (with a bit of stretching). The reaper "pilot" isn't there for some tactical reason, it's there as a kind of statue, showing what the race originally looked like. This form would be encased in the reaper tactical shell, and the species would enter a unified mind nivana-esque state transcending mortal comprehension (the ultimate reward in some real life religions).

This is all rampant speculation, of course, but it's the best motivation I can come up with that casts the reapers in a positive light.

That's an interesting theory, but you forget that all FTL technology in the ME universe is currently based on Mass Effect fields.... which is what the Reapers wanted. They leave the Relays and the Citadel around so species will develope technology based on them. If the death of the universe was being caused by a particular form of tech, they probably wouldn't leave it lying around for the rest of us to play with/base our societies off of.

[jklinders]

SuperZombieChow wrote...

Tibilicus wrote...

Yer, all good guys like to commit genocide and wipe the Galaxy of advanced civilization every 50,000 years..

It's not a matter of not being able to comprehend their purpose, there can't possibly be a good end to justify their means.

Using this quote, because I like it as a springboard. Really though it's a response to the whole thread.

What about dark energy? We all assume it's going to be some anti-reaper weapon, but in reality it could be the reaper's motivation. Advanced races use some form of FTL travel and communication. This causes a build up of dark energy and advances the heat death of the universe. The original species that became the first reaper observed this and realized that, if allowed to progress unchecked, advanced species would end up destroying every chance for life in the galaxy.

So the reapers give the galaxy 50,000 year increments. In this time, any races in existence are allowed to enjoy their time in the sun. Make war, make peace, make settlements, whatever their heart desires. At the end of this time, the reapers convert any species with the genetic potential to be saved into one of them, an immortal monument to the species that once was, and wipe the slate clean so that NEW life can have their turn.

Kind of explains the "Human Reaper" at the end of the game (with a bit of stretching). The reaper "pilot" isn't there for some tactical reason, it's there as a kind of statue, showing what the race originally looked like. This form would be encased in the reaper tactical shell, and the species would enter a unified mind nivana-esque state transcending mortal comprehension (the ultimate reward in some real life religions).

This is all rampant speculation, of course, but it's the best motivation I can come up with that casts the reapers in a positive light.

makes about as much sense as the other well thought out theories I have seen.

Simply put I cannot excuse the practice as they are making decisions for other sentients in a very 'God like' way. history is fille dwith people who acted like that and it created greater evil in it's wake. Whether it was the assimilation of the First nations of North America or the setting up of colonies across Africa and Asia that have had negative imacts right up to this day. bottom line, just because you think you know better does not mean you do.

not knocking the idea behind their motivations. just the motivations themselves if that is what they are.

[Nolenthar]

I actually think Reapers needs other civilisation to become stronger and stronger. You've seen how they create new reapers ?

They're not good or bad guys, they just grow as a population each time they wipe a civilisation out.

[SuperZombieChow]

El Spork-o wrote...

That's an interesting theory, but you forget that all FTL technology in the ME universe is currently based on Mass Effect fields.... which is what the Reapers wanted. They leave the Relays and the Citadel around so species will develope technology based on them. If the death of the universe was being caused by a particular form of tech, they probably wouldn't leave it lying around for the rest of us to play with/base our societies off of.

Unless the assumption is that the act of moving faster then light itself causes the buildup; That it's some by-product of bypassing the laws of relativity. Or perhaps species evolve technologically along typical lines, and all roads lead to Mass Effect fields. If the young races are going to get it anyway, better to give it to them and not explain exactly how it works. That way it's not overproliferated and when the time comes to cull the young races the Reapers know exactly what they are up against.

not knocking the idea behind their motivations. just the motivations themselves if that is what they are.

Of course, it's a question of percieved greater good vs. right to self determination. To the Reapers, the rights of a single member of a species would be no more significant then we would consider the rights of a single cell in our body. Similarly if a single species (or group of species) has to die so that all species may continue to exist, then it's similar to capitol punishment. The reapers save who they can, and allow a record to exist (in the form of repurposed "slaves") of species they can't. It's hardly the moral high ground, particularly when you're the young species, but it's much more of a grey area then "We need you to reproduce and grow stronger" or "there's another scary species out there that would kill you worse and possibly hurt us."

Modifié par SuperZombieChow, 04 mars 2010 - 05:42 .

[The Governator]

Gabey5 wrote...

so you think..... they said we couldnt possible comprehend it

Which, by extension, means that you have it wrong too, bro.