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Dragon Age: Origins… and the death of the D&D classic?


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#1
Desalbert

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[This discusses my initial reaction to the Xbox 360 version of the game]


 My focus: Dragon Age: Origins is not the spiritual successor I had in mind. I understand it is not an AD&D game. However, does the fact that Bioware's first fantasy rpg (in years!) is not an AD&D title, but more-so like Mass Effect in approach mean that the clasic AD&D style is close to being dead and gone? What's more, is Dragon Age's style better in your opinion, than the AD&D approach?

My Rant:

Dragon Age: Origins was billed by the Bioware elite as “the spiritual successor to Baldur’s Gate”. As a medieval, fantasy-role-playing game – their first since that fabled classic and Neverwinter Nights—it seemed a reasonable statement. However, the very fact that it’s a fantasy-role-playing game is about the only thing similar between the two titles. For better or worse.

As a massive fan of Baldur’s Gate growing up, I expect hardcore D&D from Bioware. This time, they’ve chosen to flesh out their own world, known as Ferelden, whose chief enemies are not truly kobolds, Orcs and mind flayers, but Dark spawn.  This is commendable. There is, in point-of-fact, no reason for Bioware to limit themselves to the pre-generated world of the sword-coast, Balduran, and the Forgotten Realms… regardless of how awesome that might have been.

What is bizarre, however, is the new character creation and development systems, which are far more of a spiritual homage to Mass Effect than anything related to Baldur’s Gate. Indeed, in Dragon Age, expect to apply new skill points every level—your 10 constitution won’t be limited to that number throughout your quest, and as such, your bound-in-stone character sheet from the Baldur’s and Neverwinter series  has no place here. 
Secondly, when a party member is downed, they do not die and require resurrection as in Baldur’s gate, but simply rise and begin automatically healing when the enemies are dispatched like in Mass Effect and the KOTOR series. Once again, to me, this harms a lot of the difficulty of the game, and even takes some of the intensity of battle that was always so prevalent to Baldur’s straight out of the game.
 
What is more, if you’re a mage, forget about (1) having a grand spell book to memorize spells in,  (2) a limit of casts per day, or (3) even a long casting period in battle.  

(1)   
Instead, you have you have a bunch of different ‘talent tree’ sections to select spells from at levelling up, which are divided into categories, and which appear much more limited than the spells offered in Baldur’s Gate 2, or the Neverwinter series, especially when one allows the fact that in both games there are also spell-scrolls to pickup and learn from to increase an ever-brimming spell book.

(2)   
Related to (1) this also means that you can cast any given spell as many times a day as you like… In fact, you can cast it several times in each combat, and are, in fact, expected to. Allow me to liken this system to both Mass Effect’s ability and biotic-power experience, as well as that of world of Warcraft…which is to say: Your spells in Dragon Age are limited not by uses per day, but simply by a cool down (60 seconds, 30 seconds, what have you).  Now, for me, this is a huge issue, because Baldur’s gate promoted a much more intellectual approach to battles because spells had to be selected and used judiciously per day, instead of over-and-over again to dispatch of foe.

(3)   
The issue of a long casting time is a minor one, but call me a sucker for hearing my mage spout some kind of Latin while he charges up a massive and all-powerful lightning bolt to devastate my enemies. I do miss the waving of the hands, the spouting of “Sanctoo, Alleeyaa, Faaaairoh! *unleashed*, quite a bit. Instead now, with Dragon Age, I pump out single-target lightning bolts every 30 seconds, and to me, the epic nature of unleashing one is entirely lost. –as is it’s in game power.

All of this promoted a mage experience that was more like being a Consular, Sith force-user, or Biotic than an actual mage that would come from the ‘spiritual successor’ to Baldur’s Gate. Granted, this is more accessible and fast-paced, but it comes at the cost of a classic and more strategic feel. In fact, all of this caused me to start a Rogue before I got too far with my mage (I’m going to try him again soon, don’t worry).

That leads me to my final point: Close combat is where it’s at in Dragon Age: this game seems mostly designed with that in mind, and the spraying of blood best exemplifies where the developers intended the battle to most  often be won.

In the end, for me, Dragon Age is nothing like Baldur’s Gate. So far, it has been a fascinating game with a fantastic story, and an interesting approach, but it is in no way like those venerable classics…

…and it makes me worry that we’ve lost that demanding, hardcore, classic D&D style for good…

After all,If Bioware is moving away from it, then who in the world should be expected to stay?
 
Give me your thoughts on Dragon Age, and especially, how the PC version plays. Let me hear what you think about all this. Am I just stuck in the past, or have others felt this too?

Let me know.

Kindest regards,
-Des
 

Modifié par Desalbert, 07 novembre 2009 - 07:33 .


#2
Ralsar

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You wanted a D&D game. You bought a non-D&D game. You complain that it isn't a D&D game? Uhhhhh..... what?

#3
Desalbert

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I feared I might get such a response. What my argument though is, is that the game is in no way any kind of successor to that Baldur's Gate style...spiritual or otherwise. I understand it's not a D&D game...that much is clear. But does the fact that it isn't mean that maybe even Bioware is moving from that design for good?



That is my interest here. On your grounds, you are quite correct. But that is obvious.

#4
The_Madpaddy

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Yawn why do people want to play the same game as BG its not BG,i dont want to pay £40 for a game i played 8 or whaterver yrs ago,i want to play a game that is as good as BG and gives me as much fun not a clone,this is a good game its not perfect but give it 6 months and patches and the mod community and it will be amazing.The mods will give you all the things that is missing and more,but as it is its still great fun,and its good to be playing something different not a clone.

#5
kortheo

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I disagree. This game feels a LOT lot Baldur's Gate in many respect. I think the combat mechanics are just about the only thing that doesn't feel like it, and they still at least resemble the older games in some ways. When I'm in a dungeon and walking around, it looks pretty much what I would expect a 3d Baldur's Gate to look like.



Color me satisfied.

#6
Dregur

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"It's not D&D." is the only reasonable response I can think of. Battles are different, yes, but because you only have a pool of mana, you can only cast so many spells before your pool of mana dries up.

#7
Brentra

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Desalbert wrote...
What is more, if you’re a mage, forget about (1) having a grand spell
book to memorize spells in,  (2) a limit of casts per day, or (3) even
a long casting period in battle. 
 


 Pure AD&D was fine for tables and dices. When it comes to videogaming, however, it looks pretty much ridiculous. What exactly was so 'realistic', attractive or logical about having a mage to
take an eight-hour-long nap after casting a couple of pretty
low-profile spells? If my mage has a long-term memories and regenerating mana pool, I see it as progress, not as death of anything.

#8
Desalbert

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This is fair. It isn't D&D you're all right. And I'm getting the sense that this is okay with many people here. Good good! I simply wanted to generate discussion.

#9
The-Cyber-Dave

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1) Its not D&D.

2) Its gameplay is still very reminiscent of the old BG series. It is not the same, but there are a lot of similarities to the way the party is used and controled.

3) If it had been a D&D game, based on your complaints, you still would not have been happy. A new D&D game, licensed for use from WotC, would use 4e rules. 4e rules for D&D are about as close to the old BG series as Dragon Age is.

4) Its a great game. Who cares if it doesn't use the outdated, and in my personal opinion rather poor, mechanics of 2e or 3e D&D?

#10
Ildaron

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The combat actually makes me think more along the lines of 4e combat rather then the evil THAC0 days or even 3.5. Still I remember Baulder's Gate and even have it in a box somewhere. I believe this game follows along those lines, by the feel of the characters and interactions.

#11
gcanders

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Desalbert wrote...

I feared I might get such a response. What my argument though is, is that the game is in no way any kind of successor to that Baldur's Gate style...spiritual or otherwise. I understand it's not a D&D game...that much is clear. But does the fact that it isn't mean that maybe even Bioware is moving from that design for good?

That is my interest here. On your grounds, you are quite correct. But that is obvious.


Comparing this to Temple of Elemental Evil, I can say that it's the story that makes a better game over slight adjustments in mechanics. 

DnD mechanics are great for DnD.  They were great in Baldurs Gate and other video games, but I don't really notice a difference in the enjoyment of gameplay.

Given the choice of playing Temple of Elemental Evil with better graphics than Dragonage, I would still pick Dragonage.  I have yet to finish Temple.  Maybe this summer, if there isn't a sizeable expansion for Dragonage.

#12
thheNO

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I haven't played the game, but I'll miss the chanting spell sounds, the big spellbook and set atributes

#13
dburner

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It doesn't even come close. Dragon Age Disappointment. I'm going back to Baldur's Gate. Better graphics.

Ralsar wrote...

You wanted a D&D game. You bought a non-D&D game. You complain that it isn't a D&D game? Uhhhhh..... what?



#14
reddragon567

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There's no resting system. Meaning that the mechanic of "Spells Per Day" means that your mage would use up all his spells then be left with nothing later on. The only time you "sleep" is when you get to camp.

I would hate to go through a dungeon with limited spells per day and no way of resting.

#15
dburner

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I would strongly recommend *not* buying the game. Especially if you intend to use a console.

thheNO wrote...

I haven't played the game, but I'll miss the chanting spell sounds, the big spellbook and set atributes



#16
HemisH

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I agree completly with your comments in regards to this game vs a D&D game.

I still enjoy the game tho. What I'm wondering is why you thought it was a D&D game? Baldur's Gate was not that great just because of the set of rules they were using.

While your comments are true especially for the magic usage this is still similar to Baldur's Gate.

  • Turn based combat (sped-up and semi automatic) which you can pause.
  • Lots of strategy still with the positioning of your party members, potions, etc..
  • I'm not far in the game but it should be an interesting story telling format.
  • Interesting party members.
  • Lots of interractions between you and the party members
  • No rogues means you miss all the chests (oh god I weep with my first Warrior!)

I'm going to stop for now but even after agreeing with you with the D&D vs Dragon Age argument I have to disagree with Dragon Age not being a Baldur's Gate successor even tho I got Mass Effect vibes too.

I'm glad the game was made. Maybe it would have been better with D&D rules (at least 3.5)? I'm just glad this style didn't just die. I can compromise not having strict D&D like rules.

Cheers!

#17
Desalbert

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Really solid replies thus far, I appreciate all the opinions!



I agree, it is a great game! I fear some of you may get me wrong. It's a great game, no doubt.



Is it a game that spells doom for the D&D-bound videogame though? (I've seen some great responses to this already, keep it coming)! :)

#18
macayle

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i think i can answer one of your issues easily. Bioware no longer has the online rights to use D&D rule sets. Turbine does. I am also sure that since they produced BG I and II along with NWN that used D&D that if they produced a came with a very similar rule set they would have been tied up in court a bit agruing how this was not a D&D game.

#19
Gacatar

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This game was never meant to be another Infinity Engine with better graphics.
10 years passed, time to move on. Yeah, this is a completely new game. But, I can still feel the spirit of the old games in it.
How many other modern RPGs have such a party system where you control everyone, pausing, player-deployed traps and deep tactical elements in general? Almost everything released recently is just generic hack and slash.
Also, long conversations and lots of text, books you can read. Even the riddle room made a comeback.
Try accepting the new things a bit and have some fun. There are even improvements in some areas over the old games, like all the fighter and rogue combat skills. In BG2, you only had a single auto-attack for those classes. And maybe some HLAs or once per day spell-like abilities.

Modifié par Gacatar, 07 novembre 2009 - 07:40 .


#20
cephasjames

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You're stuck in the past. I frequent the Tomb Raider forums too where I hear the same complaint that you just made: "Its just not the same as when I was young." Nope. But that's not always a bad thing.



If you don't like DA then don't play it. I think that's the best advice I've heard on these boards lately.



Its not a game that is for everyone. Some people build up their expectations so high or have their own ideas of what it should be and it doesn't match up like they want. They get disappointed. That's life. So you can choose to play it for what it is and enjoy it, play it while pining for "better days" (which always seem better than they really were), or just not play it. I suggest the first. If you play it while hoping for a "better game" you simply won't enjoy it. And if you don't play it you'll miss out on what is a good game - though not what you were hoping for.

#21
Desalbert

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Also, I wonder if my expirience on 360 in being more action focused is hurting my ability to see the "baldur's gate" in this. After all, it's quite a difficult thing to place and position characters strategically on the xbox...



To that end, too, does the pc offer mouse-click character movement?

#22
Gacatar

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Oh, you're playing on 360.

Seriously, get it for the PC. It's almost a different game.

#23
cephasjames

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dburner wrote...

It doesn't even come close. Dragon Age Disappointment. I'm going back to Baldur's Gate. Better graphics.

Ralsar wrote...

You wanted a D&D game. You bought a non-D&D game. You complain that it isn't a D&D game? Uhhhhh..... what?

Bye.

#24
HemisH

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Desalbert wrote...

Really solid replies thus far, I appreciate all the opinions!

I agree, it is a great game! I fear some of you may get me wrong. It's a great game, no doubt.

Is it a game that spells doom for the D&D-bound videogame though? (I've seen some great responses to this already, keep it coming)! :)


I'm 28 and have been playing D&D with friends for 7-8 years now. We don't go hardcore by playing often but anyway... It made me discover these Baldur's Gate games and such.

We still use 3.5 and have no intentions to switch to 4.0. I think making a D&D game with the 4.0 rules would be close to dragon age. We read the 4.0 rules and everything and it didn't click at all. The way it seemed more action oriented...

So I don't mind seeing the D&D games dying instead of getting mindless action games using 4.0.

Mind you that all my thoughts about that opinion is for the RULES only. I wouldn't mind seeing more of the classic D&D worlds (settings) with 3.5 rules or homemade system like Dragon Age.

The worlds are always interesting to visit (especially Dragonlance which is sadly underrated).

#25
gcanders

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Desalbert wrote...

Also, I wonder if my expirience on 360 in being more action focused is hurting my ability to see the "baldur's gate" in this. After all, it's quite a difficult thing to place and position characters strategically on the xbox...

To that end, too, does the pc offer mouse-click character movement?


Yes, and spacebar pausing.