90 réponses à ce sujet

[aleph-0]

I hadn't seen a thread covering this topic, and I'd like to start
discussion on some of the transhumanism / transhumanist themes
I've seen in ME2. Today's Cerberus Daily News was certainly an inspiration, but I've had these ideas in mind since finishing my first playthrough.

Briefly (perhaps to the point of oversimplicity), transhumanism is a school of thought based on the notion that humanity isn't a finished product. We're still developing, and we're at the point in our development where questions of the dangers and opportunities of our technological advancement take the forefront. Our ability to shape the world around (and including) us with technology presents greater risks and greater rewards than ever - as well as forcing us to examine the meaning and value of "being human" .


I was happy to see transhumanism get a shout-out in ME1 (the UNC:
Hostage mission, meeting Chairman Burns of the Alliance Parliamentary
Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies / the interactions with AIs), and
I'm glad to see more material for discussion was included in ME2. I had
my interest in transhumanist thought sparked by playing Deus Ex / Sid
Meier's Alpha Centauri almost ten years ago; it's exciting to see new
games come out with similarly thought-provoking material.


Anyway. Some of the things I saw in ME2 that caught my attention:

-
Probably most evident, Shepard being brought back from the dead.
Cerberus uses biotech / cybernetics to bring you back to life, just as
combat-ready as you ever were (and then some)


- In that vein, the researchable upgrades: It's easy to focus on
the [+10% Health],  [+10% Damage Protection], ooh new heavy weapon
parts of the research upgrades, but reading the descriptions is
definitely worthwhile. Not so much on the ones that upgrade armor or
weapons, but the ones that upgrade Shepard directly. Synthetic fibers
woven into the skin, medi-gel conduits, and enhanced muscle weave. It's
mentioned in the description text, but nobody really mentions it
(either to Shep directly, or overheard) in conversation - more on that
later, though.


- Mordin's conversation (if you agree with the implications) about
the Collectors being mostly "replaced by tech"; throughout the ME
trilogy there's been some considerable aversion to a union of organic
and synthetic "hardware" (for lack of a better term). What implications
do you suppose this will have for Shep, in light of the Lazarus Project
(and any of the upgrades you take, as mentioned above)?


- The right to self-determination: Legion's conversations on the
Normandy if you ask about the heretic geth, and most if not all
conversation on the Heretic Station mission examines this idea. Conversations in ME2 focus your attention on the notion of using tech you haven't developed yourself (and
presumably aren't prepared for). This has been a theme since ME1, with
the Sovereign reveal convo. In ME2 Legion seems to think the heretic
geth are completely missing the point by using someone else's tech.
Mordin has something of a similar conversation (albeit from a different
perspective) when you talk to him about the krogan being "uplifted" to
fight the rachni. Aside from lending weight to the "Blow up the Base"
side of the endgame debate, these conversations present in a more
general sense the idea that using tech we don't fully understand is
questionably safe / ethical, at absolute best.


- Miscellaneous other topics: Miranda's genetic engineering,
shackled vs. unshackled AI, choices on the Heretic Station mission, the
fact that the geth have directly stated that they're in the process of
working toward a Singularity (the Dyson sphere conversation) / today's
news story bringing ethical and legal questions of death in cryostasis
(not to mention uploading consciousness) into view


Definitely plenty to ponder. One thing that does bug me, though
(or, at the very least I'd like to see covered in ME3) is the question
of how Shep's handling all of this. Fully understanding that the
player-as-Shep mechanic pretty much requires it, it's amazing how
well-adjusted and able to roll with the punches our Shep can be, given
all of the above. Mind, I'm not saying there needs to be a lot said
about it, but I think it could bear being brought up in conversation
more. Thoughts?

[Terraneaux]

In general, I was given the understanding that the game was sidestepping a lot of those transhumanism issues to focus more on the space opera side of things. Transhumanism *is* the kind of thing that I like to see explored in media, but the way ME set up the bans on genetic engineering and AI research it seemed that the writers wanted to focus on humans rather than transhumans.

[glasgoo21]

If we consider that we only use a fraction of our humain minds, Biotics aren't far away, who knows, interesting topic you wrote

[aleph-0]

@Terraneaux

True; and I think ME1 covered "ordinary humans doing amazing things" pretty well.

For a universe where genetic engineering (ETA: specifically, the creation of sapient species) and AI research is banned, though, we certainly end up running into more examples of one or the other than might be expected. Shep's no longer an "ordinary" human though- text for the Widow sniper rifle even says "no ordinary human can fire this w/o shattering an arm", or some such. I hope that receives some attention in ME3.

Keeping in mind, of course, that Shep was never really "ordinary" - you're written as someone special by design - ME2 takes that a lot further, in context of technological alteration of a biological form. Interesting commentary, though, that genetic therapy (for most human governments' citizens, and for all Alliance personnel) is common enough to not warrant much more than casual mention, whereas we might consider that a transhuman technology from present perspective.

Modifié par aleph-0, 04 mars 2010 - 05:54 .

[aleph-0]

Today's news:



“Expert witnesses were introduced today in the Systems Alliance trial of Ford v. Huerta, starting with the petitioner's side. Dr. Samuel Wachhaus testified today that President Huerta was brain-dead for too long to make a full recovery. Questioned on Huerta's apparent cognitive health afterward, Wachhaus testified that the VI ran Huerta's artificial memory so successfully that it took over his brain functions so that "there was no Huerta anymore. This is not a person with a VI memory, it's a VI with a partially-organic operating system". The respondent's experts will begin testimony tomorrow.”



More in-universe material to discuss regarding the nature of personhood; I do hope we see more on this theme in ME3.

[GenericPlayer2]

What are transhumans? Are they aliens that have surgical operations so that they appear and function like humans?

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Transhumanism is the notion that at some point our technology will augment us so profoundly that we won't strictly be human anymore in the conventional sense - we will be some new type of thing.

Biotics are transhumans - the Eezo nodules in their bodies are a unique feature that fundamentally changes the nature of their existence.

[marshalleck]

Most humans in the game are transhumans by our modern standards. Gene therapy to eliminate congenital disease and improve health is fairly routine, as are sub-dermal computer implants for real-time language translation, machine interface, etc.

Some people freak out abou this subject and start invoking the ghost of certain unsavory early 20th century political movements and psuedo-scientific ideas like eugenics, which isn't what modern transhumanist principles are about.

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 mars 2010 - 02:08 .

[Cyberfrog81]

glasgoo21 wrote...
If we consider that we only use a fraction of our humain minds

A myth that just refuses to die. Biotics is cool, but highly implausible.

On earth at least. Who knows what crazy stuff is out there.

[Big I]

The Shepard specific upgrades always bugged me. How'd he get them? Did he go under the knife for each one?



I do wish there was more of a transhumanist flavor in ME2, especially for human characters. Still we've got Grunt, who is basically the krogan ideal as created by genetic engineering, and Legion and the Geth with their "superstructure" seeking to transcend their physical limitations.

[aleph-0]

More news on the trial today:



“Expert witness Dr. Lin Shiyin testified in the Systems Alliance trial of Ford v. Huerta today. He claimed that the former president made a full recovery from a temporarily brain-dead state. Stumbling a little when grilled on Huerta's timeline of cognition, Lin nevertheless made the case for Huerta being in full control once his motor functions ad memory were assigned synthetic analogues. "To believe that he is now a different person, a synthetic, is to draw a line where no line is needed", he argued. "A new man did not appear on the table when the first open-heart surgery was performed. His life was merely extended beyond what was thought possible at the time".”



Of course, now that a new Deus Ex 3 trailer is out, that's probably where all the h+ (transhumanist) discussion is heading. But I like the ME universe's treatment of it as something not directly tied into the main arc of the plot.



@marshalleck Interesting to note! And yet, in-universe, there's still a debate about h+ ideas. In real life, would humans from earlier eras consider us transhuman?



@LookingGlass93 Yeah, some of those seem like they would a) take a while to recover from, have some visible effect about which people would comment. But for the most part, crew, NPCs and Shep him/herself give the notion of being back from the dead and bio/cyberaugmented...well, less thought than I would.

[abstractwhiz]

glasgoo21 wrote...

If we consider that we only use a fraction of our humain minds, Biotics aren't far away, who knows, interesting topic you wrote

This is a total canard, but it's been repeated so many times that it probably wins the prize for most believed myth ever. Hell, I can't even understand how one could make measurements to back up such a statement. It probably started as a random quote, and was then repeated heavily by psychic frauds (and amplified by science-illiterate media) trying to justify their money-making rackets. <_<


I'm a bit disappointed (though not surprised) by the lack of massive augmentation. It's weird enough that humans are dealing with synthetic replacement of mental functions in the late 2100s - if the usual exponential curve of technology is anything to go by, they would probably have settled this question a century before ME2.

Even more weird is that none of the other species comment in those little news blurbs. I mean, the Citadel Council was formed 25 centuries ago. It's ridiculous that they aren't already their species equivalent of posthuman, let alone transhuman. This entire trial should be commonplace for them. The only thing even remotely interesting from a transhumanist perspective is the Jupiter Brain the geth are building - hopefully it'll play some role in ME3. 

On the other hand, this would totally make nonsense out of the entire trilogy, since the Reapers have been around for millions of years, and should therefore be utterly impossible to beat in any sort of engagement. If they were being realistic, then you could have the combined might of all the ME races tossed at the Reapers, only to be idly swept away with ridiculous ease. And then you'd find out that the thing that beat them wasn't even a Reaper army, but just some random toy that a baby Reaper made for fun.  

[Cpl_Facehugger]

abstractwhiz wrote...


Even more weird is that none of the other species comment in those little news blurbs. I mean, the Citadel Council was formed 25 centuries ago. It's ridiculous that they aren't already their species equivalent of posthuman, let alone transhuman. This entire trial should be commonplace for them. The only thing even remotely interesting from a transhumanist perspective is the Jupiter Brain the geth are building - hopefully it'll play some role in ME3.

[

It's implied that the council clamps down hard on any sort of transhuman (transalien?) research. AI of any sort is illegal, genetic engineering is heavily regulated so much so that medigel is technically illegal, AIs who develop are destroyed (you do this twice in ME1) on sight... I'm not sure why they'd restrict themselves like this. It's possibly some sort of racial memory/legend of the reapers. Heck, maybe the Citadel itself had a code of laws written in the council chamber ala Hammurabi's code, with the council just using those as the basis of their legal system.

Anyway, I think the geth in general are pretty interesting from a transhumanist perspective with how their society works. Mindstate uploads that link together to form a greater gestalt? Very interesting.

And in a way, the reapers are too. Though the reapers are obviously evil transhumans.  

On the other hand, this would totally make nonsense out of the entire trilogy, since the Reapers have been around for millions of years, and should therefore be utterly impossible to beat in any sort of engagement. If they were being realistic, then you could have the combined might of all the ME races tossed at the Reapers, only to be idly swept away with ridiculous ease. And then you'd find out that the thing that beat them wasn't even a Reaper army, but just some random toy that a baby Reaper made for fun.  

One of my pet theories is that this is exactly what will happen. Shepard will gather up the races of the galaxy including the geth, rachni, and revitalized krogan, and get slapped down with contemptuous ease in the end battle no matter what he does. It'll end with Harbinger saying "There have been thousands of councils and thousands of Shepards through the milennia. None have stopped us. You... Were no different. The cycle is unbroken. Now it is time for your salvation... Through your destruction."

Then the final scene would be Shepard stuck in a reaper pod being made into a smoothie.

It would be the most epic trolling of any fanbase ever, and an incredibly ballsy move on BW's part.  

Probably never happen though. 

Anyway, more seriously, you could posit a technological plateau scenario to make the reapers still beatable. Sure they've had millions and millions of years to develop, but if for whatever reason they can't develop, there is the opportunity to catch up. We also don't know what exactly they do in dark space, though it's implied they sleep. So, not like they're necessarily advancing for most of that time. 

[abstractwhiz]

 Hmmm, this brings up an interesting ME3 idea. It's basically a new spin on the ultimate outcome of that volus billionaire who apparently experienced a Prothean beacon. Maybe there is an insanely advanced posthuman race out there, but they don't really interact with the galaxy at large. (Maybe they spend their time in Infinite Fun Space like the Minds from Iain M Banks' Culture novels. ) These are the 'beings of light' mentioned in the codex entry about the aforementioned billionaire. ME3 can involve Shepard getting their attention, probably through some means involving lots of combat . Then they turn up and hang the Reapers out to dry.

Reasonable origin story: They were a civilization that arose in some backwater area of the galaxy without mass relays - maybe some accident wiped out the nearest one or something. They advanced, reached a technological singularity before expanding far enough to find the mass relays, and then transcended away to whatever superior realm of existence they inhabit. All this time, they've been blissfully unaware of the Reapers cleansing the galaxy every few millennia, and the Reapers have no idea they exist.

Alternatively, they might even predate the Reapers, which is a bit more in accord with the volus story.

[Zulu_DFA]

The question to be answered before beginning to ponder on "transhumanism", is: What is "human"? No consenus on that has been achieved.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 mars 2010 - 11:54 .

[madisk]

Terraneaux wrote...

In general, I was given the understanding that the game was sidestepping a lot of those transhumanism issues to focus more on the space opera side of things. Transhumanism *is* the kind of thing that I like to see explored in media, but the way ME set up the bans on genetic engineering and AI research it seemed that the writers wanted to focus on humans rather than transhumans.

I don't know, the whole 'reapers versus organics' seems to have it's own hidden transhuman side to it, it's just taken to the extremes.

[Ecael]

Anyway, more seriously, you could posit a technological plateau scenario to make the reapers still beatable. Sure they've had millions and  millions of years to develop, but if for whatever reason they can't
develop, there is the opportunity to catch up. We also don't know what  exactly they do in dark space, though it's implied they sleep. So, not  like they're necessarily advancing for most of that time.

I don't know, the whole 'reapers versus organics' seems to have it's own hidden transhuman side to it, it's just taken to the extremes.

One could argue that humans are reaching an evolutionary plateau (even now) because they are no longer adapting to the environment, but making the environment adapt to them. Sure, there may be beneficial mutations resulting from genetic drift, but societies are set up so that it doesn't provide much of an advantage over others in finding a mate.

That being said, whoever the Reapers are and where they came from, they may have long reached their evolutionary plateau as organics millions of years ago, and are perhaps starting to reach (or already reached) that technological pleateau as well. Thus, the reason for their interest in harvesting other species is to allow a galaxy to evolve without interference, and then travel in every 50,000 years to pillage civilizations for their phenotypic diversity and contrasting technology - technology that is really an extension of their phenotypes (and one humans mastered in a ridiculously short amount of time).

When they say that they are the salvation of other species, they may very well be complimenting these races on their advancements, and are suggesting that these races reaching that plateau as well. Saren noted that organic-synthetic hybrids are superior to anything else; perhaps the Reapers are attempting to use hybrids to bypass that evolutionary and technological plateau.

In the end, this can justify the ability of a primitive galaxy to be able to defeat the Reapers. The Reapers are not shocked that they will resist (even though they think they're doing what's best for the galaxy), but they are shocked that a simple organic such as your Shepard has been elevated to near-godhood, as if he/she completely ignored that plateau.

To them, the reason they're 'rushing' back to the galaxy is because they are running out of time before Shepard, in coexistence with the new Normandy, is becoming an organic-synthetic hybrid superior to any one Reaper. They use a organic-synthetic 'pilot' differing by race and an organic-synthetic shell to travel through the universe. Shepard is an organic-synthetic hybrid using a organic-synthetic Normandy (with AI and Reaper technology). What makes him different from Saren is that he is also resistant to their indoctrination attempts.

Shepard may very well be immortal in a sense ('Critical Mission Failure' just doesn't cut it), so they can't just wait around until he dies, and that scares them.

Modifié par Ecael, 13 mars 2010 - 01:08 .

[madisk]

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

And in a way, the reapers are too. Though the reapers are obviously evil transhumans.  

Or the reapers just transcend our conception of good and evil.

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

One of my pet theories is that this is exactly what will happen.
Shepard will gather up the races of the galaxy including the geth,
rachni, and revitalized krogan, and get slapped down with contemptuous
ease in the end battle no matter what he does. It'll end with Harbinger
saying "There have been thousands of councils and thousands of Shepards
through the milennia. None have stopped us. You... Were no different.
The cycle is unbroken. Now it is time for your salvation... Through
your destruction."

Then the final scene would be Shepard stuck in a reaper pod being made into a smoothie.

I thought that too after seeing the ending of ME2, but I'm convinced this won't be the case - Bioware wants to expand the franchise after the Shepard trilogy so killing off the entire universe would be a bad idea.

Furthermore, the game is full of proof that the reapers aren't capable of just effortlessly conquering the galaxy, that's why they have the whole elaborate Mass Relay - Citadel network set up, crippling space travel and FTL communications every time an extinction cycle begins. It's obvious that without this advantage they're not unbeatable. ME1 said that it took centuries for the reapers to extinguish all the Protheans before they retreated back trough the citadel relay, and this was easy for them because they were the only ones who could use the mass relays then. Without the citadel's master control over the network their advantage would be gone.

So far it seems that no matter how much the reapers have 'transcended', they're still not immortal or unbeatable. I have my own theories about what they really are, but I'm not going to get into speculating this thoroughly. The reapers might have been an actual species to transcend themselves, and they could be a controlling mechanism in a baby universe created in a lab or something to collect data or whatever. If we take both transhumanism and string theory into account, the possibilities of what they turn out to be are limitless.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The question to be answered before
beginning to ponder on "transhumanism", is: What is "human"? No
consenus on that has been achieved.

That's because no one brings it up for public debate. The general population is simply unaware of these ideas. I however think this question is up for every individual to decide for themselves, provided however that one thoroughly consider all viewpoints instead of hastily running into conclusions. It's not a simple question and it requires a lot of research and philosophical pondering to answer.

Modifié par madisk, 13 mars 2010 - 12:55 .

[Ecael]

madisk wrote...

Cpl_Facehugger wrote...

And in a way, the reapers are too. Though the reapers are obviously evil transhumans.

Or the reapers just transcend our conception of good and evil.

I agree. To continue on my previous post: the races of the galaxy are like unique farm crops. The Reapers let them grow, and then they collect the fruit of their labor. Instead of watering and providing sunlight for plants, the Reapers provide habitable worlds and useful technology for species. No one considers it 'evil' to let plants grow and then harvest them for their own advancement (unless there's a PETP that I'm not aware of). We say that plants cannot think or feel pain. The Reapers probably have the same mindset - these species are 'rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh' (like Sovereign said), incapable of feeling pain that is beyond an organic's response to stimuli.

Reaper (rē'pər) - noun - One that reaps, especially a machine for harvesting grain or pulse crops.

EDIT: On an additional note, I really hope we get conversations like Sovereign or Vigil in ME3 to clear all this up.

Modifié par Ecael, 13 mars 2010 - 01:05 .

[madisk]

Ecael wrote...

No one considers it 'evil' to let plants grow and then harvest them for their own advancement (unless there's a PETP that I'm not aware of). We say that plants cannot think or feel pain. .

On a side note, there are actually a group of people who think it's inhumane to eat any fruit before it falls from the tree or bush it's growing from. To pluck an apple from a tree is equal to murder for them.

Modifié par madisk, 13 mars 2010 - 12:56 .

[Ecael]

madisk wrote...

Ecael wrote...

No one considers it 'evil' to let plants grow and then harvest them for their own advancement (unless there's a PETP that I'm not aware of). We say that plants cannot think or feel pain. .

On a side note, there are actually a group of people who think it's inhumane to eat any fruit before it falls from the tree or bush it's growing from. To pluck an apple from a tree is equal to murder for them.

Ah yes, "Fruitarians"...

Following that logic, just because someone grew an apple tree doesn't mean they have every right to the fruit that it bears - other species make use of it as well. To deny them of food is murder by starvation (to put it in Mass Effect's context, that could be why the Reapers just liquefy their 'fruits' outright!). So, to that extent, the best way not to influence life at all is to not eat. Ever.

Also, I'm sure that's not a very healthy diet to follow. "Following this eating plan can cause your body to fall short on calcium, protein, iron, zinc, vitamin D, most B vitamins (especially B-12), and essential fatty acids. Not only could your height be affected, your bones may not reach their peak density, and vital nutrients for nervous system development may be missing in your diet. (Source - not the most reputable one, but still).

...We have dismissed this claim.

Modifié par Ecael, 13 mars 2010 - 01:06 .

[Multifarious Algorithm]

One theory I've heard about the Reapers is that they're trancendalist zealots. Believing they've reached the pinnacle of evolution, they needed to find another reason to justify their continued existence in the universe and found it in the notion that they would periodically elevate successful species to their level of existence.

The genetic goo process basically being justified by the notion that if they would make trillions -> infinite numbers of lives immortal and perfect, then it justifies almost any number of casualties of currently existent sapients.

[Suron]

personally I think we've hit a stagnant point in our evolution...we've advanced technology far enough that we aren't advancing as a species anymore and probably won't.

We evolve to overcome obstacles etc and this takes a long time...however our technology has made humanity lazy...as an overall our race is actually getting dumber....we're not evolving anymore due to machines and technology..we're stunting ourselves in that regard....average IQ's are dropping because we have made our lives too easy.

honestly unless there's a catastrophe that destroys our way of life that forces us to evolve..I just don't see humanity itself evolving farther then we have (on a human standpoint not technology standpoint.)

We honestly have it too easy...we've made life too easy for ourselves...and there is nothing driving our evolution anymore...sure we'll advance more technology wise...but on a whole we're going to get lazier and lazier while we let machines take over our lives more and more....

Modifié par Suron, 13 mars 2010 - 01:15 .

[Ecael]

Suron wrote...

We evolve to overcome obstacles etc and this takes a long time...however our technology has made humanity lazy...as an overall our race is actually getting dumber....we're not evolving anymore due to machines and technology..we're stunting ourselves in that regard....average IQ's are dropping because we have made our lives too easy.

Well, I would hope that average IQ is dropping not because of the way we live our lives, but because testing for someone's actual intelligence is difficult (and what is defined as intelligence varies widely). Even if someone is becoming 'less intelligent' as an individual, there's always someone else who will make up for the slack - thus, society as a whole becomes more intelligent. Looking at it that way, it's hard to define a human as 'I', but as 'we'.

WE ARE HUMAN. DIRECT INTERVENTION IS NECESSARY.

Technology has only increased our access to information and communication with others. We wouldn't be able to sit here and discuss philosophy with other people if that were not the case. I'm just glad I don't have to hunt for my own meals.

"An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander. Your species was offered everything geth aspired to - true unity, understanding, transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought."

Modifié par Ecael, 13 mars 2010 - 01:33 .