Before I begin this rant I want to say I really enjoy the ME games a lot. However this is something that bothers me and I am wondering what others think. There are two main issues that stand out to me that need work:
1) Romance choices and subplot
I know that this has become a huge fan favourite game addition and I for one also enjoy it however this is what bothers me about it.
As Commander Shepard, you have a crew to command and a galaxy to save. Sure falling in love is fine and dandy but given the constraints of the game there is no advantge or disadvantage and ultimately no consequences to making any kind of romantic rendezvous. This is a subplot which goes no where and doesn't affect anything hardly. At the very least, this should definitely affect your crew who need to respect your leadership.
Also if the carry over from ME1 to ME 2 is any indication, these romantic escapades carry virtually no weight on anything in the story. There is no consequence to cheating pretty much, and no one in your crew gives a damn that the commander may or may not be "showing favouritism" to another crew member.
I love the fact that the choice exists to romance a character but it needs to and really should matter to the rest of the people you deal with regularly. As it stands it is completely superfluous to the plot and carries with it no weight to the story.
2) Renegade/Paragon status
I am not talking about the mechanics of the system itself but rather the consequences of going one way or the other.
I feel as though nobody in the game really cares one way or the other what kind of a person you are. Unless you are in a particular conversation where you can choose to say something Renegade or Paragon...nobody seems to care and your reputation is non-existent except for the fact that people know who Shepard is.
One of the worst additions to the game IMO was the scarring and renegade appearance thing. That being said, if you decided to leave it and are a renegade, your appearance would attract attention. If I was standing around and someone walked by looking like Renegade Shepard with red eyes and glowing cybernetic scars and packing as much heat as Shepard does, I would react appropriately.
As it stands, most character interactions treat you like you are some pesk who should be told to mind his own business unless you choose to say something Jerky. Those who notice you anyways.
3) Empty Galaxy
This is sort of a summation I guess of what I am getting at...so three things really.
The galaxy seems empty in that there is no reaction to Shepards presence as the greatest hero of the galaxy or the choices he makes beyond the present threat of the Reapers. Even beyond interactive conversations, no one on Omega, illium, the citadel, or anywhere for that matter seem to notice you or care that you are there. I mean everyone on Illium is talking about Samara and Thane being there like it is huge news. But a person like Shepard who has already saved the galaxy once, even if the council down played it to Geth, would be noticed and known/feared and definitely talked about. Another example, If you just saved Archangel, who is known all over Omega, and kicked the asses of every merc group on the station, you would be known if you returned to the station.
I am not a fan of the Fable game series but it does a really good job (over the top obviously) of the environment and the people around you reacting to your presence. I feel that this was lacking in ME and is what prevents the world from coming alive to me in a lot of respects. Even old choices that were supposed to have an effect were mostly acknowledged by messages at your private terminal.
Anyways....
I have droned on long enough. Love the game though but this bothered me.
Any thoughts?
ME2.... RPG where the choices don't matter?
Débuté par
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
, mars 04 2010 06:02
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#2
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:03
Onyx Jaguar
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Name one sequel that took into account the number of choices that ME 2 does.
While it does seem cheap it does also add to the universe even if it does so indirectly.
While it does seem cheap it does also add to the universe even if it does so indirectly.
Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 04 mars 2010 - 06:04 .
#3
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:05
DarthCaine
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I really don't like reapeting myself, but here are most of my thoughts:
http://social.biowar...5/index/1556413
It's a BioWare game, what did you expect? In no BioWare game your choices actually change anything big
http://social.biowar...5/index/1556413
It's a BioWare game, what did you expect? In no BioWare game your choices actually change anything big
Modifié par DarthCaine, 04 mars 2010 - 06:06 .
#4
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:05
lorderon99999
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I think all the big choices are going to make a diff in ME3
#5
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:06
DarthCaine
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Keep telling yourself that. People thought the same for ME2lorderon99999 wrote...
I think all the big choices are going to make a diff in ME3
And here I go repeating myself, please people read my comments here:
http://social.biowar...5/index/1556413
#6
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:07
Sphynx118
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Bioware do have a history of doing this. Hopefully they can change
#7
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:07
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
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Yeah...I guess I am lamenting that fact. They are great company, and story telling is top notch but in a game about choice the choices should change things big.DarthCaine wrote...
I really don't like reapeting myself, but here are most of my thoughts:
http://social.biowar...5/index/1556413
It's a BioWare game, what did you expect? In no BioWare game your choices actually change anything big
#8
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:09
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Why do you think that? They didn't change anything between ME1 and 2. They also didn't change anything throughout ME2 at all really. I think Darthcaine is right.lorderon99999 wrote...
I think all the big choices are going to make a diff in ME3
#9
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:15
ToshiStation38
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Darht Jayder wrote...
Why do you think that? They didn't change anything between ME1 and 2. They also didn't change anything throughout ME2 at all really. I think Darthcaine is right.lorderon99999 wrote...
I think all the big choices are going to make a diff in ME3
The only thing I expect is for the endings to be widely varied. I don't think your choices would change much other than the last few hours of the game maybe.
The reason to think this is because ME 3 is the last game, and therefore the endings can go anywhere since they don't need to be the starting point of a sequel.
#10
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:18
DarthCaine
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I guess there might there might one ending where the reapers win, but the rest will be like DAO's ending (a single scene that isn't very different and lots of stupid text that anyone can write where your choices will be reflected, sort of like ME2's emails)ToshiStation38 wrote...
Darht Jayder wrote...
Why do you think that? They didn't change anything between ME1 and 2. They also didn't change anything throughout ME2 at all really. I think Darthcaine is right.lorderon99999 wrote...
I think all the big choices are going to make a diff in ME3
The only thing I expect is for the endings to be widely varied. I don't think your choices would change much other than the last few hours of the game maybe.
The reason to think this is because ME 3 is the last game, and therefore the endings can go anywhere since they don't need to be the starting point of a sequel.
Modifié par DarthCaine, 04 mars 2010 - 06:19 .
#11
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:19
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I think it has to do with developing the game. If they base the sequel off of so many decisions made from the previous, then they would have to incorporate basically several games into one. Like killing Wrex for instance. If you killed him in ME1 or start off ME2 from scratch, Wrex is dead and is bloodbrother Wreave is the clan leader. Imagine making a half dozen or so similar changes in the game in ME3, but on a much larger scale. The development would take a lot longer and be more expensive and would cover like 3 or 4 dvd's. There would be so many different variations that it would cause Bioware headaches.
#12
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:20
DarthCaine
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JohnnyDollar wrote...
I think it has to do with developing the game. If they base the sequel off of so many decisions made from the previous, then they would have to incorporate basically several games into one. Like killing Wrex for instance. If you killed him in ME1 or start off ME2 from scratch, Wrex is dead and is bloodbrother Wreave is the clan leader. Imagine making a half dozen or so similar changes in the game in ME3, but on a much larger scale. The development would take a lot longer and be more expensive and would cover like 3 or 4 dvd's. There would be so many different variations that it would cause Bioware headaches.
DarthCaine wrote...
They didn't even bother to make multiple squad mates based on your choices (Morinth doesn't really count since people treat her like Samara)
Even Bugsidian made multiple squad mates based on your choices in KOTOR2.
Try playing The Witcher and see how the big choices are made earlier in the game and can completely change some chapters
(I expect Alpha Protocol to have lots of consequences since Bugsidian is really insisting on that and they said the game will be short like 20-25 hours with lots of multiple paths)
BTW, I don't like to say I told you so, but I just want to point out that people put too much trust into BioWare:
http://meforums.biow...forum=144.&sp=0
http://meforums.biow...forum=144.&sp=0
(read my comments)
There's 3 rules I've learned about BioWare:
1. They make great stories with lots of choices
2. Your choices have little or no consequences
3. They ALWAYS overhype their games and say stuff that isn't actually in the game (false advertising)
Remember how they said that the major choices in ME1 will greatly impact ME2?
Remember how they said Jade Empire will be a very long game?
For ME1 it was the worst.
They said that there'll there'll be a customizable MAKO, an interrupt system, destructible environment, that you could leave your armor covered with blood, that each world will be big as Morrowind and long as a KOTOR world and that you could change the appearance of your weapons and that you can play as a squad mate like in KOTOR (play as Wrex!)
( & )
BioWare has NEVER sticked to their promises
Modifié par DarthCaine, 04 mars 2010 - 06:21 .
#13
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:22
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Hey I would wait for that. It would make the game better...headaches or no. When you are roleplaying it is important to feel like the choices matter and that the world around you is alive.JohnnyDollar wrote...
I think it has to do with developing the game. If they base the sequel off of so many decisions made from the previous, then they would have to incorporate basically several games into one. Like killing Wrex for instance. If you killed him in ME1 or start off ME2 from scratch, Wrex is dead and is bloodbrother Wreave is the clan leader. Imagine making a half dozen or so similar changes in the game in ME3, but on a much larger scale. The development would take a lot longer and be more expensive and would cover like 3 or 4 dvd's. There would be so many different variations that it would cause Bioware headaches.
#14
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Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:23
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lorderon99999 wrote...
I think all the big choices are going to make a diff in ME3
I think so too. Especially when you run into those spots like Illium and talk to the Rachni queen again.
#15
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:24
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@DarthCaine
I understand where your coming from. I was thinking along the lines of bigger decisions made in the game that they can't incorporate into the sequel without headaches. Like saving or the killing council, destroying or keeping the Collector Base, killing or releasing the Rachni Queen, etc...
I understand where your coming from. I was thinking along the lines of bigger decisions made in the game that they can't incorporate into the sequel without headaches. Like saving or the killing council, destroying or keeping the Collector Base, killing or releasing the Rachni Queen, etc...
#16
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:30
ExtremeOne
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for ME 2 to really reflect a players choices from ME 1 it would have to be a very huge game much bigger than what it is. to truly show all the choices they did the right thing by making some main choices show up
#17
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Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:33
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Right, and I think that doing that just isn't feasible from their standpoint.ExtremeOne wrote...
for ME 2 to really reflect a players choices from ME 1 it would have to be a very huge game much bigger than what it is. to truly show all the choices they did the right thing by making some main choices show up
#18
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:33
DarthCaine
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The real problem isn't that the choices don't really matter, the problem is that BioWare lied when they said that your ME1 choices will greatly impact ME2
#19
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:36
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Yeah, they hyped up the marketing for it for sure.DarthCaine wrote...
The real problem isn't that the choices don't really matter, the problem is that BioWare lied when they said that your ME1 choices will greatly impact ME2
#20
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:37
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Fair enough but they could do more to give the illusion that they matter. ie, more reaction to Shepard's presence, more squad banter, more infighting among crew members, and LI's should definitely have mnore impact on the crew and how they react. Plus they shouldn't advertise how impactful your choices are if they really aren't.JohnnyDollar wrote...
Right, and I think that doing that just isn't feasible from their standpoint.ExtremeOne wrote...
for ME 2 to really reflect a players choices from ME 1 it would have to be a very huge game much bigger than what it is. to truly show all the choices they did the right thing by making some main choices show up
#21
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:39
cruc1al
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They did Dragon Age: Origins which had different origin stories, while the rest of the game was (according to what I've read, haven't played it) largely the same for all origins. I don't find it unimaginable that ME3 would pull off something similar, and the origin path for the ME3 story that you take would depend on the choices you made in ME2 and 1. For example, if you chose to keep the base and line up with TIM, you'll start ME3 working with TIM. If you destroyed the base and told him off, you'll start somewhere else, perhaps with the Alliance if there's a human council, or with the Council if you saved them.
Modifié par cruc1al, 04 mars 2010 - 06:39 .
#22
Guest_JohnnyDollar_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:42
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That would be great. I would love more squad banter and infighting. One of my favorite aspects of the game is fighting the Asari girls and listening to them trash talking and sqealing at me.Darht Jayder wrote..
Fair enough but they could do more to give the illusion that they matter. ie, more reaction to Shepard's presence, more squad banter, more infighting among crew members, and LI's should definitely have mnore impact on the crew and how they react. Plus they shouldn't advertise how impactful your choices are if they really aren't.
#23
Guest_Darht Jayder_*
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:42
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Lots of speculation about how ME3 could begin but that is not really what I am talking about. I am referring more to how a lot of choices outside of the main plot make no difference throughout the galaxy or affect the main plot really.cruc1al wrote...
They did Dragon Age: Origins which had different origin stories, while the rest of the game was (according to what I've read, haven't played it) largely the same for all origins. I don't find it unimaginable that ME3 would pull off something similar, and the origin path for the ME3 story that you take would depend on the choices you made in ME2 and 1. For example, if you chose to keep the base and line up with TIM, you'll start ME3 working with TIM. If you destroyed the base and told him off, you'll start somewhere else, perhaps with the Alliance if there's a human council, or with the Council if you saved them.
#24
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:44
Zulu_DFA
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Darht Jayder wrote...
1) Romance choices and subplot
2) Renegade/Paragon status
3) Empty Galaxy
Any thoughts?
Ah, yes... "BIG CHOICES"...
1. Romance choices are not a big deal actually. First, you don't get to "show favoritism" until the final mission. Secondly, it's 175 years from now. Do you think people will care who sleeps with whom? Especially whe half your team is aliens? (Yeah, I know you can romance aliens now, but it's a crappy fanservice.)
2. This is bigger. a couple off-mission comments on Shepard's actions would make mense, at least from Jacob and Miranda. As for the scars... They are there as the artistic decision. Like the crappy "outfits" for squadmates. IMO, someone in the artists' department of BioWare needs to experience a couple of renegade interrupts, but it was their decision and we have to suck it up. Or not play the game. Personally, I play renegade and heal the scars before docking at Citadel.
3. As for Omega, Aria explains it clearly that it's a sort of place where everyone minds their own business. Archangel is believed to be killed. As for Illium and Citadel, I'd say Shepard draws too much attention, beyound Bailey's station. Being basicaly a secret agent working for a rogue outfit, wouldn't he prefer to travel incognito?
Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 mars 2010 - 06:47 .
#25
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 06:45
SurfaceBeneath
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Darth, while I'm not going to argue with your post or anything, ambitious titles always promise more than they deliver... usually because they're really really really ambitious and that ambition always tends to get choked down by the realities of the limits of the medium. Promising a ton and failing to deliver on some of it is sure a hell of a lot better than promising nothing and delivering exactly what you say. While the Witcher is an excellent example of consequences done right in the game, I can't think of... well, any other games that do "real" consequences to your actions. Or at least consistent consequences.
Also, it's still too early to see what kind of consequences Bioware can feasibly come up with for ME3. Their tagline from the beginning was that your choices would matter in the Mass Effect trilogy, however their hands were more or less bound together in terms of what they could do for ME2 since they actually do have obligations to a sequel which necessarily constrains the scope of wider consequences. I do hope they actually do deliver in making a game with as much meaningful consequence as the Witcher... but I'm definitely not throwing my chips in on that bet. Call it just being optimistic.
Also, it's still too early to see what kind of consequences Bioware can feasibly come up with for ME3. Their tagline from the beginning was that your choices would matter in the Mass Effect trilogy, however their hands were more or less bound together in terms of what they could do for ME2 since they actually do have obligations to a sequel which necessarily constrains the scope of wider consequences. I do hope they actually do deliver in making a game with as much meaningful consequence as the Witcher... but I'm definitely not throwing my chips in on that bet. Call it just being optimistic.
Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 04 mars 2010 - 06:48 .
