145 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadowrun1177]

Just cause you haven't seen an effect of all the choices you made say in ME1 in ME2 doesn't mean they wont. This is a trilogy meaning 3 games things could still come back to bite you in the rear.

[Madecologist]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

The only real difference is getting spectre status, which has little impact on the game except making one quest easier to finish and changes the final line of another quest by a little.

Can you spoil me a bit on both?
If you refer to "I'm spectre, start talking" line in the Thane's loyalty quest, it's not correct. I wasn't reinstated, and pulled the shortest interrogation ever nonetheless.

The Quarian Volus credit chit quest. Shepard will say "....a Spectre" instead of "...former Spectre" after the Paragon interrupt.

The second one is getting the two Asari to be cleared for flight (appear after Thane's loyalty, and the forged documents appear in Garrus' loyalty mission). You can claim you are a Spectre and it gets them removed from the watch list. She verifies it first though before letting them go.

[Zulu_DFA]

Schneidend wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
and in *my* ME universe aliens are not romanceable

Um, why, exactly? There are clearly interracial couples in the game. You're just setting non-canonical restrictions on yourself.

(Talimance - another un-sci-fi-ish crappy piece of fanservice)

Except that like every sci-fi story with friendly, cultured aliens has interracial coupling? Star Wars, Star Trek, Robotech/Macross, Stargate (any and all iterations), Andromeda, Alien Nation, etc.

OK, let's dance.

There is science fiction, and fantasy. Fantasy may take place in space. It doesn't make it science fiction. It's still fantasy. Fantasy in space. Science considers inter-species sexual relationsips as malicious deviations. All the franchises you brought up are full of BS and fanservice.

In ME1 the only species that was capable of interspecies sexual/romantic relationships were the Asari. And the Codex brought up a really nice explanation for that. It was a sort of compromise of sci-fi to fan-service, yet it was well-made, and I bought it. In Mass Effect 2 the canon was trashed in multiple ways (thermal clips, powered suits, planet descriptions) and the sci-fi element took major insults from gameplay element (mining gas giants for heavy metals, etc.). So don't talk to me about canon. I kind o feel entitle to my own canon now, and whenever I play ME2 I isolate any BS I don't like. You may call it restrictions if you like. I call it... I don't know how I call it, but it's a good thing. Double-think is a hell of an anesthetic.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 mars 2010 - 07:45 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Madecologist wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

The only real difference is getting spectre status, which has little impact on the game except making one quest easier to finish and changes the final line of another quest by a little.

Can you spoil me a bit on both?
If you refer to "I'm spectre, start talking" line in the Thane's loyalty quest, it's not correct. I wasn't reinstated, and pulled the shortest interrogation ever nonetheless.

The Quarian Volus credit chit quest. Shepard will say "....a Spectre" instead of "...former Spectre" after the Paragon interrupt.

The second one is getting the two Asari to be cleared for flight (appear after Thane's loyalty, and the forged documents appear in Garrus' loyalty mission). You can claim you are a Spectre and it gets them removed from the watch list. She verifies it first though before letting them go.

Thank you.

[tropicalwave]

There is a big difference between what Bioware wants and what they can do. They are limited by the same things we are, time, money and tech. Oh they are also limited by the fact that they have to make ME3. So spinter off too much in ME2 would make ME3 very difficult to wrangle. ON the other hand I am holding onto any hopes that there will be huge differences in ME3. The biggest reason for this is that if they do that it could alienate people who havne't played the first 2. EA would have a big issue with that. So there would ahve to be a whole 'You haven't played before so we need to have a part that gets you to choose somethings you know nothing about so you can have alternatives as if you played the other two games'. That would take a large amount of time from the team limitiing the rest of the game.



Also the more splintering they do the more programming they have to do. Take Wrex for example, you kill him in ME1 you get the same result on Tuchunka as if he lived but with a different NPC and slightly different dialogue. It they did what I wish they would have done then Tuchunka would be a whole different area whether or not Wrex lived or not. This splinters the story and requires a lot more programming. Then they would have to have two story lines going on. It would get difficult quickly.



Also they have a universe that someone has sold rights too so they have to be able to keep some story lines intact. Like there is still a council whether you saved them or not and there is a human on it. If you had four choices there then it would be impossible to write a story in the universe after that point. You'd have to pick one as cannon and that too would alienate people. It is a very, very rough road they are travelling on and I bet it is just as heated behind the scenes as it is in the forums.



I for one wish for multiple outcomes in the thrid game but I can assure you that if there is a possibilty for the Reapers to win that will not be cannon. Just like Shepard dying on the suicide mission is not cannon, otherwise those people couldn't play ME3 (or we'd not have an ME3). Choices are tough all around!

[Safoulan]

tropicalwave wrote...

There is a big difference between what Bioware wants and what they can do.

...

they have to be able to keep some story lines intact. Like there is still a council whether you saved them or not and there is a human on it. If you had four choices there then it would be impossible to write a story in the universe after that point. You'd have to pick one as cannon and that too would alienate people. It is a very, very rough road they are travelling on and I bet it is just as heated behind the scenes as it is in the forums.

Well said! 

Besides, many of the 'choices don't matter' complaints aren't about BioWare lying or Players who really expect 4 different stories from the Council Survival Question or 2 different Tuchankas from the Wrex Question.
(citizen DarthCain disagrees & he has a point, but he's not the majority, sorry Cain)

If BioWare had designed some of the encounters more around Player choice (TIM, Horizon, ME1 Recruiting) there would be more satisfaction for the Player even though the actual end result remains unchanged from what ME2 is currently.

The plot/script doesn't have to be force fed to get the same outcome. 
Ilium is of similar size to other ME1 environments, but for Ilium they spaced & designed it better to appear larger & more expansive. 

Modifié par Safoulan, 04 mars 2010 - 07:53 .

[AmstradHero]

tropicalwave: Nicely said.



Also FYI, BioWare didn't license the ME universe. It's all entirely BioWare's IP, just like Dragon Age.

[bbfan13]

I like how Bioware handles the renegade/paragon option because it allows me to have multiple games achieving the same goals but each feeling a bit different. Other games I've played allow you to play more as good/evil but you still never get to deviate from the main story in any way and that feels cheap. The Fable reference in the OP is a perfect example of that. I want to be able to join the boss at the end and destroy the city just once!



With that said, I have just complete my 4th ME2 game as an adept/insanity/NG+ and it is time to set this one down for a while. Can anyone recommend a game where your choices REALLY do matter to how the game works. I'm thinking of going out and buying a PS3 and Demon's Souls so I can play something hard. Any other recommendations would be appreciated. Already have PC and 360 so any system but Wii. I read that in Risen, you can join one of three factions. Anyone played it and does that have significant implications to the main story?



Thanks for you help.

[Safoulan]

bbfan13 wrote...

Can anyone recommend a game where your choices REALLY do matter to how the game works. I'm thinking of going out and buying a PS3 and Demon's Souls so I can play something hard. Any other recommendations would be appreciated. Already have PC and 360 so any system but Wii. I read that in Risen, you can join one of three factions. Anyone played it and does that have significant implications to the main story?

Thanks for you help.

A bit off topic but if you're going to get a PS3, Uncharted 2; Among Thieves is a blast!
It's not an RPG, you don't get to choose how the story goes, but it's design is so superb it might as well be a fully interactive action movie.
As for RPG's on the PC, can't go wrong with BioWares Baldur's Gate, good for a surprising number of playthroughs, more DnD than DoA. 

[Akeashar]

Personally, I was always expecting the big changes to be in ME3, when all our actions are taken to account in the end one way or another.

About the romances meaning something or not, theres no rules regarding fraternization in Cerberus. This isn't the Alliance Military, remember? I think Jacob is the one that points that out in one of his conversations. ME3 is meant to be where all the romances are tied up, and its always been that way. From what we were told by Bioware I knew to not expect much, if anything, from the ME1 LI in ME2. The payoff is meant to be in whether you were faithful or not when you got to the final act.

Jack at least gets rather... upset if you dump her for Tali, as I found out. Not enough to mess with her loyalty, but its still there nonetheless.

[bbfan13]

Safoulan wrote...

bbfan13 wrote...

Can anyone recommend a game where your choices REALLY do matter to how the game works. I'm thinking of going out and buying a PS3 and Demon's Souls so I can play something hard. Any other recommendations would be appreciated. Already have PC and 360 so any system but Wii. I read that in Risen, you can join one of three factions. Anyone played it and does that have significant implications to the main story?

Thanks for you help.

A bit off topic but if you're going to get a PS3, Uncharted 2; Among Thieves is a blast!
It's not an RPG, you don't get to choose how the story goes, but it's design is so superb it might as well be a fully interactive action movie.
As for RPG's on the PC, can't go wrong with BioWares Baldur's Gate, good for a surprising number of playthroughs, more DnD than DoA. 

I don't mean to be off topic.  The topic was about choices not mattering and I was looking for recommendations on games where choices do matter.  That is why I asked here.  If I get the PS3, I'll get Demon's Souls and Uncharted 2 at the same time.  It's probably  in a couple hours.  I do have to make an admission.  I'm a huge Bioware fan and have played everything except Jade Empire.  I popped in BG2 SoA on my old computer because I couldn't get it to go past the first screen on my new one.  That was my favorite game and I wanted to revisit it.  I stopped after about 5 hours.  Games really have progressed and while that will always be one of my top games, I need something a little more up to date. 

Thanks for the recommendations.

[The Governator]

I think the romance subplots do not carry weight in the main story for two reasons: A) diverting the story could be too large in scope for the code to accommodate without pushing the game to 3 or even 4 discs and because some people may not like romance at all in their games.

[The Governator]

Personally, I agree with the OP on one point. I would like my romantic choices to affect the story, but I understand there could be reasons why Bioware does not incorporate those decisions into the main storyline.

[Oawa]

In a recent interview with the head guys at Bioware, they refer to ME 2 as a "Cinematic Actioner with minor RP elements". Even the guys at Bioware aren't trying to pass the ME trilogy off as a "traditional" RPG.

[ExtremeOne]

Darht Jayder wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

for ME 2 to really reflect a players choices from ME 1 it would have to be a very huge game much bigger than what it is. to truly show all the choices they did the right thing by making some main choices show up

Right, and I think that doing that just isn't feasible from their standpoint.

Fair enough but they could do more to give the illusion that they matter.  ie, more reaction to Shepard's presence, more squad banter, more infighting among crew members, and LI's should definitely have mnore impact on the crew and how they react.  Plus they shouldn't advertise how impactful your choices are if they really aren't.

 

they did make a mistake in saying the choices from ME 1 would impact ME 2 but you have to give them credit for trying something that no other developer has ever done. as far as LI goes they should have had some effect on the game. 

[Sharn01]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

for ME 2 to really reflect a players choices from ME 1 it would have to be a very huge game much bigger than what it is. to truly show all the choices they did the right thing by making some main choices show up

Right, and I think that doing that just isn't feasible from their standpoint.

Fair enough but they could do more to give the illusion that they matter.  ie, more reaction to Shepard's presence, more squad banter, more infighting among crew members, and LI's should definitely have mnore impact on the crew and how they react.  Plus they shouldn't advertise how impactful your choices are if they really aren't.

 

they did make a mistake in saying the choices from ME 1 would impact ME 2 but you have to give them credit for trying something that no other developer has ever done. as far as LI goes they should have had some effect on the game. 

I am kind of stunned, this is the first time I have seen you acknowledge someone has a right to make a complaint and defended the game in an intelligent and civil manner.

[Schneidend]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

OK, let's dance.

There is science fiction, and fantasy. Fantasy may take place in space. It doesn't make it science fiction. It's still fantasy. Fantasy in space. Science considers inter-species sexual relationsips as malicious deviations. All the franchises you brought up are full of BS and fanservice.

In ME1 the only species that was capable of interspecies sexual/romantic relationships were the Asari. And the Codex brought up a really nice explanation for that. It was a sort of compromise of sci-fi to fan-service, yet it was well-made, and I bought it. In Mass Effect 2 the canon was trashed in multiple ways (thermal clips, powered suits, planet descriptions) and the sci-fi element took major insults from gameplay element (mining gas giants for heavy metals, etc.). So don't talk to me about canon. I kind o feel entitle to my own canon now, and whenever I play ME2 I isolate any BS I don't like. You may call it restrictions if you like. I call it... I don't know how I call it, but it's a good thing. Double-think is a hell of an anesthetic.

"Science" doesn't consider anything at all. It's not a person, but a thing, a concept. Malicious deviations? From what? Sounds like your objection is purely moral or religious, and not as factual as you would like others to believe.

Besides, what does science to do with the ability to find other people attractive and insert Tab A into Slot B? Nothing, aside from explaining why people find certain things appealing, I suppose. Why would romantic/sexual relationships with aliens need to be explained in any greater detail than "we find each other sexually attractive"?

[ZennExile]

Shadowrun1177 wrote...

Just cause you haven't seen an effect of all the choices you made say in ME1 in ME2 doesn't mean they wont. This is a trilogy meaning 3 games things could still come back to bite you in the rear.

Actually the same people who decided to avoid any and all story elements that might be confusing for people who never played ME2 are the very same people making ME3 so it's HIGHLY likely that all these "dire consequences" equate to little more than cameo appearences and bugged news stories.

[ZennExile]

And to be perfectly honest if ME2 is an RPG then so is Gear of War, Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield Company of Heroes, and every other shooter with a story mode.

[Computron2000]

For those who want decisions to really matter in a big big way, all the way from ME1, please go try and make a flowchart of it. Even if it was done for a PnP RPG, it would be humugous and this without having to write specifics on things such as actions taken, dialogue said, etc that are required for a visual/audio medium such as a CRPG.



Maybe in another 50 years this will change as programming becomes more self assembly (possibly similar to geth structures).



The major thing here that ME is pioneering is that this is the first time sequels actually take into consideration actions done in the previous installament. This is not done at all due to the above mentioned massive flowchart which sucks resources and budget like the Bermuda Triangle.



As the first of such a series type, it will not be highly polished (Wolvenstein/Doom I vs current shooters) but it will be the trendsetter if it becomes popular.

[Schneidend]

ZennExile wrote...

And to be perfectly honest if ME2 is an RPG then so is Gear of War, Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield Company of Heroes, and every other shooter with a story mode.

None of the other games you mentioned have stats, skill points, or magical powers that can be customized. ME2 is an RPG. Unless I'm wrong, and so is every website and retailer out there.