145 réponses à ce sujet

[ZennExile]

Schneidend wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

And to be perfectly honest if ME2 is an RPG then so is Gear of War, Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield Company of Heroes, and every other shooter with a story mode.

None of the other games you mentioned have stats, skill points, or magical powers that can be customized. ME2 is an RPG. Unless I'm wrong, and so is every website and retailer out there.

All those games have stats assigned to every weapon and skill is measured in phsyical mastery rather than written on a paperdoll.  Magical powers are simply modified weapons....  And what exactly can you customize?  How powerful those magic weapons are?  How is that different from finding and  picking up a better gun?

[Talthanar]

Fallout 3 had some decent if - then effects. if you popped too many ghouls then you really had to argue your way into the ghoul city. if you nuked megaton you got a bit of a bad rep everywhere but one location.

[AmstradHero]

ZennExile wrote...
And to be perfectly honest if ME2 is an RPG then so is Gear of War, Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield Company of Heroes, and every other shooter with a story mode.

I try not to get outraged at people on the Internet, but this is just too much. This is the point where you officially became a troll spouting ridiculous and baseless garbage.

Not an RPG? Right.  So what about all that dialogue we get to pick? What about all the choices we get to make? What about the way that party members can die based on our decisions? What about... you know... actually, it's impossible to argue with a statement like yours because it's so far off-base that using logic to refute it simply isn't possible.

[DarthCaine]

ZennExile wrote...

And to be perfectly honest if ME2 is an RPG then so is Gear of War, Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield Company of Heroes, and every other shooter with a story mode.

Those games aren't RPGs !? OMG, nooooooo!

[Xandurpein]

The original RPG is PnP with a GM who has, at least in theory, limitless ability adapt the story to the players actions. Any CRPG needs to limit the players choices to avoid an explosion of possible outcomes that becomes unwieldy.



This means that everything becomes a trade off. You can have generic encounters dotted over a map and let the player discover them in any way they want, or they can have more elaborate plotted encounters, that may only work properly if the player encounters certain points in the correct order. Bioware have tended more and more towards more developed 'stories' and as a trade off less and less choice in which way to approach the encounters, over the years.



In Mass Effect 2 they have made another trade off. They opted for more possible squad mates, but as a trade off there is less interaction between the squad mates. Theoretically there is no limit to the number of squad mates they could add as DLC to Mass Effect, but adding a new party member as DLC to Dragon Age would be a huge work, including many voice actors. No doubt the sheer number of possible squad mates in ME2, including upcoming Kasumi, is because they wanted that some of them could die more 'randomly' than the plotted Ashley/Kaidan death.



If they had added the party banter, a la Dragon Age, they would have to limit the number possible squad mates a lot, and possibly find system for using more squad mates at the same time. It's all a trade off.

[Onyx Jaguar]

DarthCaine wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

And to be perfectly honest if ME2 is an RPG then so is Gear of War, Halo, Call of Duty, Battlefield Company of Heroes, and every other shooter with a story mode.

Those games aren't RPGs !? OMG, nooooooo!

I don't know how I will live with myself.  Here I've been going around explaining in great deal to everyone how Halo is an RPG.

I have no idea what I will do with my life now that my eyes have been opened...

[superimposed]

Talthanar wrote...

Fallout 3 had some decent if - then effects. if you popped too many ghouls then you really had to argue your way into the ghoul city. if you nuked megaton you got a bit of a bad rep everywhere but one location.

Three days and everything resets, though.

Fallout 3 was definitely a player-controlled Roleplay more than anything, whereas Mass Effect is a plot-driven RPG with 'stat building' elements. The stat-building element of an RPG is not necessary, but it was one way of shaping your character even further than merely character.

Mass Effect is an RPG because you are playing as a character and developing how that character reacts to situations. Every level could have been a massive shooting fest, but the moment you're able to choose the character's personality moment by moment rather than a pre-determined bit of dialogue, then you've got yourself an RPG.
A lot of people are mistaking 'zomg level-grind and ultimate weapons' as an RPG. No, nowhere in 'Role-playing Game' does the title suggest levelling up for eight hours and getting a sword so large no human, monster or god could wield without breaking both their arms is a key element.

[MutantSpleen]

Hopefully choices will matter but ultimately I don't think they will.



I also was a bit dismayed that the Hero of the Citadel was barely noticed by most people, even though things in the game said the Alliance used you on recruiting posters, there was a VI made of you yet most people who hadn't met you in ME1 had no clue who you were. Think about how much fanfare Hollywood celebrities get, they basically can't go anywhere. I can only imagine the field day the press would have if someone who saved the entire Citadel comes back from the dead. There should have been a mass of reporters in your face when you stepped onto the citadel. Not just the snarky sourpuss you met in the first game hanging out in the corner of some remote Ward dock. Heck you can't even meet Emily Wong again. Really that should have been a bit of a problem for Shepard that you should be recognized everywhere. Not just by people from ME1 who just all happened to be hanging out on the few planets you visited.

[Terraneaux]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Hopefully choices will matter but ultimately I don't think they will.

I also was a bit dismayed that the Hero of the Citadel was barely noticed by most people, even though things in the game said the Alliance used you on recruiting posters, there was a VI made of you yet most people who hadn't met you in ME1 had no clue who you were. Think about how much fanfare Hollywood celebrities get, they basically can't go anywhere. I can only imagine the field day the press would have if someone who saved the entire Citadel comes back from the dead. There should have been a mass of reporters in your face when you stepped onto the citadel. Not just the snarky sourpuss you met in the first game hanging out in the corner of some remote Ward dock. Heck you can't even meet Emily Wong again. Really that should have been a bit of a problem for Shepard that you should be recognized everywhere. Not just by people from ME1 who just all happened to be hanging out on the few planets you visited.

In general, ME2 doesn't let your character meet people who might be able to solve his/her problem.  Running into Emily Wong would beg the question of why you can't use her to 'blow this reaper story wide open' or something.

[redguppie]

1) Romance choices and subplot

I know that this has become a huge fan favourite game addition and I for one also enjoy it however this is what bothers me about it. 

As Commander Shepard, you have a crew to command and a galaxy to save.  Sure falling in love is fine and dandy but given the constraints of the game there is no advantge or disadvantage and ultimately no consequences to making any kind of romantic rendezvous.  This is a subplot which goes no where and doesn't affect anything hardly.  At the very least, this should definitely affect your crew who need to respect your leadership. 

First it hasn't affected anything yet,  Second our interactions with the clue are bare minimum and as the commander and a hero to these people I doubt they would bring it up to you in your face or allow it to affect their performance.  They are professionals, or at least they should be.  Second who in the game world besides those characters would care?  Wrex isn't going to give a damn whether you screwed a Human or an Asari. So why should it affect most actions?

Also if the carry over from ME1 to ME 2 is any indication, these romantic escapades carry virtually no weight on anything in the story.  There is no consequence to cheating pretty much, and no one in your crew gives a damn that the commander may or may not be "showing favouritism" to another crew member.

Once agian the answer is yet.  And with this one we have already been told there will be consequences.  That is why they call this a trilogy.  There is no indication of favoritism in your party but to the crew It probably looks like all your squad is gettting favoritism(seperate rooms and such)


I love the fact that the choice exists to romance a character but it needs to and really should matter to the rest of the people you deal with regularly.  As it stands it is completely superfluous to the plot and carries with it no weight to the story.

2) Renegade/Paragon status

I am not talking about the mechanics of the system itself but rather the consequences of going one way or the other. 

"I feel as though nobody in the game really cares one way or the other what kind of a person you are.  Unless you are in a particular conversation where you can choose to say something Renegade or Paragon...nobody seems to care and your reputation is non-existent except for the fact that people know who Shepard is." 

Your actions affect how people deal with you one on one.  But there responses are tailored more on how you treat them then how you treat the galaxy
One of the worst additions to the game IMO was the scarring and renegade appearance thing.  That being said, if you decided to leave it and are a renegade, your appearance would attract attention.  If I was standing around and someone walked by looking like Renegade Shepard with red eyes and glowing cybernetic scars and packing as much heat as Shepard does, I would react appropriately. 

As it stands, most character interactions treat you like you are some pesk who should be told to mind his own business unless you choose to say something Jerky.  Those who notice you anyways.

they're busy trying to prepare for the collectors.  I know one I am working I can't stand people hovering over me trying to strike up a conversation about personal topics.  They will always answer your work related topics it's only when you start getting personal they tell you they are busy

3) Empty Galaxy

This is sort of a summation I guess of what I am getting at...so three things really.

The galaxy seems empty in that there is no reaction to Shepards presence as the greatest hero of the galaxy or the choices he makes beyond the present threat of the Reapers.  Even beyond interactive conversations, no one on Omega, illium, the citadel, or anywhere for that matter seem to notice you or care that you are there.   I mean everyone on Illium is talking about Samara and Thane being there like it is huge news.  But a person like Shepard who has already saved the galaxy once, even if the council down played it to Geth, would be noticed and  known/feared and definitely talked about.  Another example, If you just saved Archangel, who is known all over Omega, and kicked the asses of every merc group on the station, you would be known if you returned to the station.

Most people think he's dead.  And even if he wasn't that doesn't mean the aerage person can recognize him on sight. 
Archangel was only known by his alias, not face and not real name,  it isn't to hard to believe that he can be incognito
all the mercs that saw you are dead, who are they going to tell?

I am not a fan of the Fable game series but it does a really good job (over the top obviously) of the environment and the people around you reacting to your presence.  I feel that this was lacking in ME and is what prevents the world from coming alive to me in a lot of respects.  Even old choices that were supposed to have an effect were mostly acknowledged by messages at your private terminal. 

If you view the galaxy as one world then yes i would agree.  but each world is an isolated place so your actions only effect what goes on in that singular world.  Truthfully why would the people on Illuim care what you did on Tuchunka?

[Sky Shadowing]

I feel many points are valid.
Obviously, making Mass Effect 2 a different game for each outcome of Mass Effect 1 is not feasible. You'd have to make two different games. Then for the two choices at the end of each of THOSE games, that makes Mass Effect 3 have to be 4 games.
Obviously this is not feasible. I thought the way they kept ME2 in line with the previous choices was pretty brilliant- politicians don't want to face their fears quite often, and Shepard's death and resurrection by Cerberus was a brilliant maneuver. The Alliance and Council hate Cerberus, and both basically want Shepard to go away, mainly because his death was pretty convenient.
For the fact that Shepard is not recognized, realize that everybody else thinks he's dead. And not everybody has a reason to talk to him. Do you approach every celebrity you see in the street and start talking to them?
I look at it this way- the trilogy is a tree. Mass Effect 1 is the roots and the base- it provides support and is where everything is drawn from. Mass Effect 2 is the trunk- provides a solid path to the endgame. Mass Effect 3 is the canopy, where everything comes together and provides a large bunch of different scenarios based on previous games.
It's still a tree in any case- it still does the same thing and is pretty much identical. But differences in the tree make differences.
If you think Bioware would make Mass Effect 3 unbeatable if you made the "wrong" choices in the previous 2 games, I'm sorry, but that's just terrible decisions. Hell, the fact that it's possible to "lose" Mass Effect 2 based on the choices in that game is amazing enough.
I did notice that there were a lot of choices in Mass Effect 2 that will probably come around to Mass Effect 3. Example, the Quarian and Geth. You basically help determine the paths of two separate species. That will determine the endgame in Mass Effect 3.
Love interests- I foresee the two love interests playing a major part. TBH, I think the consequences will result in nothing more than a cut scene- later followed by a possible mission where you're forced to make a choice between your two LIs.
Now, the endgame will be the same, but the way you get there, now that you've made your choices, will be different. Anything else is pretty much unfeasible and ridiculous to even ask. It'd be nice to have a trilogy where every single action could change the entirety of the next game, but it's not feasible. That's not asking for 3 games- it's asking for 7.

Modifié par Sky Shadowing, 05 mars 2010 - 10:03 .

[redguppie]

That's placing a lot of faith on ME3 that Bioware will do what they have never done before in any of their past games.  Plus, a few members of the crew constantly second guess your decisions....Miranda comes to mind, so I think some of these people would have something to say to about it.  These are all people who have no loyalty to you either until you've earned it so, until you have they would say something to Shepard.

They haven't shown that they can't deliver on it.  This isn't like any of thier past games so why try to compare to closely? 
Did they tell an excellent an engaging story with their previous games?
that's all you can truly answer from the past games. If you answered yes then it isn't realistic to expect them to drop the ball just because you can't figure out how they are going to solve any issues that occupy your mind.\\\\
Quite frankly I would be disappointed if I could guess the ending to a story half way through. 

As for the second guessing,  About a professional matter yes.  but in truth a privte matter wouldn't come upon thier radar as important unless you have a history of allowing your emotions to rule your actions.  And they have already got proof that you won't let personal feeling get in the way of the mission(Virmire). 

Who is busy to prepare against the collectors other than your crew?  Plus your crew is not the only people who see you.
talking to your crew about personal matters is when they say they are to busy. 

Everyone else judges you based on how you treat them.   Screw Zaeed overin his loyalty mission and his view of you changes.  everyone that you interact with on and off the ship deal with you based on your past with them, not on your past wth everyone.


This is sort of a summation I guess of what I am getting at...so three things really.

Most people think he's dead.  And even if he wasn't that doesn't mean the aerage person can recognize him on sight. 
Archangel was only known by his alias, not face and not real name,  it isn't to hard to believe that he can be incognito
all the mercs that saw you are dead, who are they going to tell?

If you view the galaxy as one world then yes i would agree.  but each world is an isolated place so your actions only effect what goes on in that singular world.  Truthfully why would the people on Illuim care what you did on Tuchunka?

People on illium may not care about Tuchanka, but word would travel.  You are flying around in a rebuilt Alliance vessel with a cerberus logo on it.  When you go to Omega, Even if the Mercs are dead and can't tell people what happened, people are going to know that they are all of a sudden gone.  Aria knows for sure and so would her people.  Second, the people you saved fro the plague would be talking.  You would be big news in the Terminus systems.  And either way it's not as if someone like Shepard is exactly inconspicuous packing as much heat as he does, with a heavily armed enterouge

Lets say you save a fishing village in France.  Once you are done you hop on a plane to the philippines to complete a job or purchase a product.  Would you expect everyone you talked to know who you are and what you did? 

NO, Why because nothing you did has any impact on them or community to a large enough degree to affect them.  Now tke that couple thousand miles and enlarge it exponentially and you get the distance rumors have to travel to get to others in space.  And that isn't even taking into account how things change with each retelling. 

As for news programs.  If it;s an intergalactic news group then unless you either wiped out that planet or saved an important planet(ie Illium) from destruction then anything you did would be religated to a scroll line or something similar.  Definately not enough to warrant widespread fame for a man considered by most to be dead.

THe majority people saved in the plague are going to believe Mordin saved them and you were just some merc he hired to do the dirty work.  He invented to cure, most everyone that was saved bar a few brought in by you were already at his clinic.  Why would they assume you were a major contributor when he has been visibly working on it for weeks?

Aria and her people dont appear to be the type to gossip.  And a bunch of people running around heavily armed doesn't seem to be to far from the norm in alot of these places.

Modifié par redguppie, 05 mars 2010 - 11:05 .

[Knoll Argonar]

I didn't. People talked quite a lot in ME2, and mini-side-missions rule.



Much more alive than almost any other game i've played. Maybe except Fable series, but fable lacks too much in comparacy.



And I agree with the tree analogy someone posted: really in ME1 you didn't do almost anything "important" for the galaxy, rather than kill/save the council-rachni. Almost all the missions took place in uncharted world or places no-one-cares-about.



In ME2, however, you touch a lot of deeper things that create quite a lot of cliff-hangers that seem obvious that will affect ME3 somehow, like the quarian, geth, krogan outcome or cerberus itself, etc.



ME3 couldn't have a better game to be the sequel of.

[ZennExile]

Sky Shadowing wrote...

I feel many points are valid.
Obviously, making Mass Effect 2 a different game for each outcome of Mass Effect 1 is not feasible. You'd have to make two different games. Then for the two choices at the end of each of THOSE games, that makes Mass Effect 3 have to be 4 games.

Actually all it would have required is branching story arcs and alternative version of existing levels + maybe the other 30 to 40 hours of gameplay we should have gotten for a 60$ RPG sequel using the same main characters mostly the same engine and a pre-existing Lore.

But instead of using this obvious, and what would have sold millions more copies of the game, route....  They chose to start from scratch by first creating a list of "classicly compelling" characters and then mutating their combined stories into a completely new game experience for the express purpose of, "Making sure no one who didn't play ME1 would get confused".   I mean what did you idiots expect?  A sequel...?

It's a completely shaved back, dumbed down, CHEAP MODE (see what I did there?) version of what this game was originally supposed to be.  They couldn't get enough money approved to make the game the right way so they brought in a whole new team and told them to make a fresh new game using the combat system the old team had previously created.

This game was scaled back to fit a budget that was unworthy of it's IP.  And the story is terrible because they used a bunch of character designers to write an epic space opera.  It probably woulda been ok had they used the first game at all to further the existing plot of the IP but they didn't so it's stupid and non-cohesive.

Unless they write ME3 using an over arching and many branching, absolutley non-linear, story, it;s not going to be worth buying.  ME2 already wasn't worth 60$.  If they follow suit ME3 will be a 30 minute cinematic with 2 combat scenes, a last chance, Dogma Style, "the world's gonna end, let's die scewin" type love scene.... and an extended "you can walk around those two fight scenes" play option.

[MassEffect762]

ZennExile wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...

I feel many points are valid.
Obviously, making Mass Effect 2 a different game for each outcome of Mass Effect 1 is not feasible. You'd have to make two different games. Then for the two choices at the end of each of THOSE games, that makes Mass Effect 3 have to be 4 games.

Actually all it would have required is branching story arcs and alternative version of existing levels + maybe the other 30 to 40 hours of gameplay we should have gotten for a 60$ RPG sequel using the same main characters mostly the same engine and a pre-existing Lore.

But instead of using this obvious, and what would have sold millions more copies of the game, route....  They chose to start from scratch by first creating a list of "classicly compelling" characters and then mutating their combined stories into a completely new game experience for the express purpose of, "Making sure no one who didn't play ME1 would get confused".   I mean what did you idiots expect?  A sequel...?

It's a completely shaved back, dumbed down, CHEAP MODE (see what I did there?) version of what this game was originally supposed to be.  They couldn't get enough money approved to make the game the right way so they brought in a whole new team and told them to make a fresh new game using the combat system the old team had previously created.

This game was scaled back to fit a budget that was unworthy of it's IP.  And the story is terrible because they used a bunch of character designers to write an epic space opera.  It probably woulda been ok had they used the first game at all to further the existing plot of the IP but they didn't so it's stupid and non-cohesive.

Unless they write ME3 using an over arching and many branching, absolutley non-linear, story, it;s not going to be worth buying.  ME2 already wasn't worth 60$.  If they follow suit ME3 will be a 30 minute cinematic with 2 combat scenes, a last chance, Dogma Style, "the world's gonna end, let's die scewin" type love scene.... and an extended "you can walk around those two fight scenes" play option.

I can understand your frustrations/dissappointment but it's out of our control really, budget trumps everything else.

[cepapoe]

ZennExile wrote...

Sky Shadowing wrote...

I feel many points are valid.
Obviously, making Mass Effect 2 a different game for each outcome of Mass Effect 1 is not feasible. You'd have to make two different games. Then for the two choices at the end of each of THOSE games, that makes Mass Effect 3 have to be 4 games.

Actually all it would have required is branching story arcs and alternative version of existing levels + maybe the other 30 to 40 hours of gameplay we should have gotten for a 60$ RPG sequel using the same main characters mostly the same engine and a pre-existing Lore.

But instead of using this obvious, and what would have sold millions more copies of the game, route....  They chose to start from scratch by first creating a list of "classicly compelling" characters and then mutating their combined stories into a completely new game experience for the express purpose of, "Making sure no one who didn't play ME1 would get confused".   I mean what did you idiots expect?  A sequel...?

It's a completely shaved back, dumbed down, CHEAP MODE (see what I did there?) version of what this game was originally supposed to be.  They couldn't get enough money approved to make the game the right way so they brought in a whole new team and told them to make a fresh new game using the combat system the old team had previously created.

This game was scaled back to fit a budget that was unworthy of it's IP.  And the story is terrible because they used a bunch of character designers to write an epic space opera.  It probably woulda been ok had they used the first game at all to further the existing plot of the IP but they didn't so it's stupid and non-cohesive.

Unless they write ME3 using an over arching and many branching, absolutley non-linear, story, it;s not going to be worth buying.  ME2 already wasn't worth 60$.  If they follow suit ME3 will be a 30 minute cinematic with 2 combat scenes, a last chance, Dogma Style, "the world's gonna end, let's die scewin" type love scene.... and an extended "you can walk around those two fight scenes" play option.

Hyperboles galor.

[Terraneaux]

MassEffect762 wrote...

I can understand your frustrations/dissappointment but it's out of our control really, budget trumps everything else.

Doesn't mean we can't be unhappy about it.

[Schneidend]

ZennExile wrote...

All those games have stats assigned to every weapon and skill is measured in phsyical mastery rather than written on a paperdoll.  Magical powers are simply modified weapons....  And what exactly can you customize?  How powerful those magic weapons are?  How is that different from finding and  picking up a better gun?

Skill in Mass Effect games are also measured in the ability to build to the strength of one's character. If manual dexterity were the sole determining factor of a player's skill, then there would be no classes or skill points, as such things allow a player to contribute to their success in the game without being able to accurately aim a weapon. There are some things about your character that won't improve no matter how dextrous one becomes, such as the base damage of weapons, the durability of the character itself (health/shields/heart containers), the damage inflicted by non-weapon abilities, etc.

If manual gameplay elements and RPGs were mutually exclusive, then the Star Ocean, Diablo, Witcher, Champions of Norrath, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, Phantasy Star Online, and World of Warcraft franchises must, like Mass Effect 1 & 2, not be RPGs. Hell, all MMORPG's would no longer be RPGs, and both of those notions are just patently untrue, because all the games I've just mentioned have an abundance of RPG elements in addition to the parts where you actually have to move your mouse, keyboard, or your controller with some dexteirty.

How is finding and picking up a better gun different from finding and picking up a better sword or magic staff, then?

How are magical powers "modified weapons" for shooters, but RPG elements when implemented in RPGs like the Baldur's Gate trilogy and KotOR? Why are Baldur's Gate and KotOR, then, still RPGs? They're obviously just using modified weapons and calling them "magic."

How much customization constitutes an RPG when customizing what your character looks like, what strengths/weaknesses their equipment focuses on, how their talents develop, and what your character says and does, is apparently not enough?

[AmstradHero]

ZennExile wrote...
Actually all it would have required is branching story arcs and alternative version of existing levels + maybe the other 30 to 40 hours of gameplay we should have gotten for a 60$ RPG sequel using the same main characters mostly the same engine and a pre-existing Lore.

*facepalm*  Your ignorance knows no bounds.

So, all they needed was to have separate scripting and dialogue for plots for each possible alternative and place them into slightly different versions of existing levels...   Sorry, what? That sounds like two entirely different games.

Creating and testing alternate content and the myriad of different possibilities based on user choices is not a simple and cheap process. A basic understanding of the game industry, or even having doing some game modding would have made this clear to you.

Please, if you're going to make a comment on an issue, make it an informed comment.

[nuclearday]

I honestly can't think of any other "big-budget" game developer making videogame RPGs, in which your choices carry more consequences than what you see in ME1/ME2.

Sure, it's Bioware's own fault - they served up some pretty big expectations for Mass Effect 2. A lot of which was probably pretty darn unrealistic, all things considered. Personally, I was rather pleasantly suprised with what all carried over from my previous game, and the extent to which it did. (Sure, a lot of that was in the form of non-interactive emails, but at the same time I wasn't even expecting them to have kept track of the majority of that stuff in the first place...)

And this is only the second act of a trilogy - I was always expecting the brunt of your consequences to be played out in the third and final act.

Personally, I only wish that they'd spent as much time allowing you to develop Shepard as a fully-fleshed character, as they do all of your companions.