145 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmy]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

I think it has to do with developing the game. If they base the sequel off of so many decisions made from the previous, then they would have to incorporate basically several games into one. Like killing Wrex for instance. If you killed him in ME1 or start off ME2 from scratch, Wrex is dead and is bloodbrother Wreave is the clan leader. Imagine making a half dozen or so similar changes in the game in ME3, but on a much larger scale. The development would take a lot longer and be more expensive and would cover like 3 or 4 dvd's. There would be so many different variations that it would cause Bioware headaches.

This is simply the reality.  There is nothing Bioware would like to do more than make the game react and change with each and every choice and do the best they can.

I am always curious about that RPG series where all your choices make a huge difference everybody keeps comparing their games to.  What series is that exactly?  Oh right there never has been one.  I find it pretty hilarious ME2: RPG where the choices don't matter (which is simply a lie the choices do matter just not as much as you would like) as opposed to....what exactly?

[marshalleck]

Valmy wrote...

I am always curious about that RPG series where all your choices make a huge difference everybody keeps comparing their games to.  What series is that exactly?  Oh right there never has been one.  I find it pretty hilarious ME2: RPG where the choices don't matter (which is simply a lie the choices do matter just not as much as you would like) as opposed to....what exactly?

I've seen people compare ME to Final Fantasy unfavorably. Yes, really.

[Zulu_DFA]

Darht Jayder wrote...

nuclearday wrote...

I honestly can't think of any other "big-budget" game developer making videogame RPGs, in which your choices carry more consequences than what you see in ME1/ME2.

Sure, it's Bioware's own fault - they served up some pretty big expectations for Mass Effect 2. A lot of which was probably pretty darn unrealistic, all things considered. Personally, I was rather pleasantly suprised with what all carried over from my previous game, and the extent to which it did. (Sure, a lot of that was in the form of non-interactive emails, but at the same time I wasn't even expecting them to have kept track of the majority of that stuff in the first place...)

And this is only the second act of a trilogy - I was always expecting the brunt of your consequences to be played out in the third and final act.

Personally, I only wish that they'd spent as much time allowing you to develop Shepard as a fully-fleshed character, as they do all of your companions.

If you had low expectations then you may have been pleasantly surprised by how the choices carry through.  To me....they basically affected very little in ME2.  LI's from ME1 didn't matter in ME2, Who cares if you killed Wrex, they have a stand in on Tuchanka,  you killed or let live the Rachni queen...who cares.  Most other things were dealt with via email message.  To me dissapointing considering the Devs repeatedly pumped up the impact that those choices would have in ME2 and they don't.

Nuclearday is right. ME2 was should not have been even meant to carry the ME1 choices' impact. Even the Citadel should have been made unaccessible in ME2. But BioWare tried to compensate for unrealistic expectations of the fans by the over-the-top amount of "small" consequenses, and that was not good. Now there is a chance they'll adopt the same approach in ME3, and that will be a real disaster.

[KnotEngaged]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
I am always curious about that RPG series where all your choices make a huge difference everybody keeps comparing their games to.  What series is that exactly?  Oh right there never has been one.  I find it pretty hilarious ME2: RPG where the choices don't matter (which is simply a lie the choices do matter just not as much as you would like) as opposed to....what exactly?

This.

[marshalleck]

Darht Jayder wrote...

No.  It has always been in the works as a trilogy.  If Bioware never meant to carry any of the decisions forward than they should not have said that the choices made in ME1 would have great impact on ME2.  Why should the citadel have been unaccessible?  I don't see the connection here at all.

Because the galaxy is a huge place and we don't need to keep visiting the same old glorified shopping-mall-turned-diplomatic-wing of a space station. New game = new places, I've already spent some ~40 hours screwing around on the Citadel in ME1 and I don't feel the need for more of it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 11 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Nuclearday is right. ME2 was should not have been even meant to carry the ME1 choices' impact. Even the Citadel should have been made unaccessible in ME2. But BioWare tried to compensate for unrealistic expectations of the fans by the over-the-top amount of "small" consequenses, and that was not good. Now there is a chance they'll adopt the same approach in ME3, and that will be a real disaster.

No.  It has always been in the works as a trilogy.  If Bioware never meant to carry any of the decisions forward than they should not have said that the choices made in ME1 would have great impact on ME2.  Why should the citadel have been unaccessible?  I don't see the connection here at all.

Trilogy:

ME1=>ME2=>ME3 = WRONG

ME1 |
        | => ME3 = RIGHT
ME2 |

Citadel should have been unaccessible, so that nobody can whine about little impact of the Save/Abandon the Council decision, until the importance of that choice would become self-evident and the impact of it come due in the end of ME3.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 mars 2010 - 04:24 .

[kmcd5722]

KnotEngaged wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
I am always curious about that RPG series where all your choices make a huge difference everybody keeps comparing their games to.  What series is that exactly?  Oh right there never has been one.  I find it pretty hilarious ME2: RPG where the choices don't matter (which is simply a lie the choices do matter just not as much as you would like) as opposed to....what exactly?

This.

I'll just requote that.  I am trying to stay neutral to fanboyism as it relates to BioWare or other developers, but any other company is as guilty as BioWare in their promises.  Things get cut in development, because a) not enough time, not enough money, c) not enough interest, or d) it just doesn't fit the style of the game.  It would have been cool to customize the MAKO and things like that, but the fact remains, did it REALLY affect how you played the game?  It really shouldn't, as presumably the people on this site who post played ME1 and ME2 multiple times. Otherwise, if you really didn't care for the game, then you wouldn't be here.  

It makes sense ME1 to ME2 things wouldn't be so non-linear, as it would make ME3 nearly impossible to fit on 5+ discs.  With that being said, hopefully ME3 has multiple discs for the vast expanse of paths, side quests, planets, and such.
Last thing, just wait for ME3, then you can tear me apart.  Let's just see how things carry over there and then you can come back and annihilate me. 

[Master Smurf]

What couldve been done - Ashley/Kaiden couldve been a squad member, not if they are dead. Wrex is fine really.

Things should have been different on the Citadel if you save/sacrifice the council.

Squad members (Jack, Thane, Samara, Legion/Tali) should be able to leave your crew based on your actions.

You dont have to recruit all the dossiers - this impacts difficulty of mission

[Raphael diSanto]

The game has a plot. Bioware are telling a story here. You can't change that plot. You can't change the events. That would require too much open-ended programming.

It's an illusion of choice, but not even really that illusory, since BioWare already alluded to it. They've said - Shepard is a hero. He'll be doing heroic things.

All you get to choose is -HOW- he does those heroic things.

Take Thane's loyalty mission. The plot requires Shepard to extract the name of the assassination target.

Your choices are not "extract name or not extract name", or "extract name by talking to guy" or "find name via other as yet undetermined means"

The choices are "extract name via good/paragon methods" or "extract name via aggressive/renegade methods"

In both situations, the key elements of the plot are identical. You still get the name and you still get it from the same guy.

-THAT-, people, is the illusion of choice in a BioWare game. Not -what- you can do. But -how- you can choose to do it.

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 11 mars 2010 - 05:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

The game has a plot. Bioware are telling a story here. You can't change that plot. You can't change the events. That would require too much open-ended programming.

It's an illusion of choice, but not even really that illusory, since BioWare already alluded to it. They've said - Shepard is a hero. He'll be doing heroic things.

All you get to choose is -HOW- he does those heroic things.

Take Thane's loyalty mission. The plot requires Shepard to extract the name of the assassination target.

Your choices are not "extract name or not extract name", or "extract name by talking to guy" or "find name via other as yet undetermined means"

The choices are "extract name via good/paragon methods" or "extract name via aggressive/renegade methods"

In both situations, the key elements of the plot are identical. You still get the name and you still get it from the same guy.

-THAT-, people, is the illusion of choice in a BioWare game. Not -what- you can do. But -how- you can choose to do it.

This is all true, except that THE END of the story they can make really different, depending an each player's individual choices. It's not that difficult, as BioWare won't be required to deal with *our* consequences after the ME3 (details)...

But to many people it gives shivers that *their goody-two-shoes main* Shepard may have really f***ed up somewhere and it may come to really bite them in the arse. To my mind, this is the real problem, which BioWare/EA may not be willing to deal with.

[Raphael diSanto]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

The game has a plot. Bioware are telling a story here. You can't change that plot. You can't change the events. That would require too much open-ended programming.

It's an illusion of choice, but not even really that illusory, since BioWare already alluded to it. They've said - Shepard is a hero. He'll be doing heroic things.

All you get to choose is -HOW- he does those heroic things.

Take Thane's loyalty mission. The plot requires Shepard to extract the name of the assassination target.

Your choices are not "extract name or not extract name", or "extract name by talking to guy" or "find name via other as yet undetermined means"

The choices are "extract name via good/paragon methods" or "extract name via aggressive/renegade methods"

In both situations, the key elements of the plot are identical. You still get the name and you still get it from the same guy.

-THAT-, people, is the illusion of choice in a BioWare game. Not -what- you can do. But -how- you can choose to do it.

Yes...but that is not the point.  The point is once those choices are made.....they should have an effect somewhere beyond the here and now of those decisions and there should be consequences.  For example, when shepard brings Legion aboard and decides to activate him...no one says anything about it.  This is what I mean when I say the choices don't matter.  Everything that has happened would suggest that this should have major consequences especially among your crew.  So whether the story has a fixed out come there should be consequences along the way that affect those around you and who will be there supporting you or against  you at the end.

Oh, I agree. I also think that would require an unrealistic amount of extra dialogue to write, record, edit and include.

Would I like to see the effects of choices, especially in squad member dialogue? Absolutely.
Do I think it'll ever happen? Maybe. More and more in each new game.
Will it ever be as open-ended as real life? Never. There's always going to be some choice, some NPC who doesn't remark on something he or she really should do.

For now, I'm happy with what I get, and the limitations of present-day gaming technology. This isn't tabletop RPGs where a DM can react dynamically to every weird and wonderful thing his or her players can throw into the mix.

ME1 was good in this respect. Lacking, but good. DA:O was better. ME2 is better still. You can trace this sort of thing all the way through the history of BioWare's games.. And by and large, they get better at it each time, as the budgets grow, as the technology improves, etc etc.

I'm expecting ME3 to be even better. Not perfect. Far from it. But better than ME1 and ME2.

[Tempest]

Well, just going to say that the guy from Horizen said it the best, "Shepard? Wait I know that name. Sure I remember you. You're some type of big Alliance Hero."



Whether you like it or not, most of the game in ME2 is bast in the terminus system, aka back alley of the galaxy. Half of your time in ME1 was more or less in citadel space. 2 years have passed in ME2. With the citadel/council nearly perfecting the art of hiding evidence (Jacob tells you about some of his missions swept under the rug) its very easy to forget who did what to save everyone. Its a political thing and even the council was able to convince alot of people that Shepard was just talking crazy about Armageddon plots. So in short alot of what you did to prepare everyone was swept under the rug and only a handful of people with high security access know the truth. Omega, illium, tuchanka, etc. do you honestly believe these areas that are deep in terminus space care about what happens to the citadel? Heck one country in earth could hardly care about what happens to another as long as there are no direct effects.

Honestly, who in the world is going to believe a guy who has been dead for 2 years is walking among them? If you saw elvis or michael jackson in the mall today, would you think "Oh, he must still be alive." or "Wow that guy looks like a dead guy, crazy but meh"

[Tempest]

Now for choice. There is a difference between giving a choice and solving a problem. Lets talk about the interrogation segment. You have different methods or choices for the answer. You can say your a spectre, punch the guy in the face or come with some type of deal. Whether you like it or not, these ARE choices, just not very deep ones. Kind of like for women to choose what to dress for the day, one is not better than the other, but in the end come out with what makes them feel great to wear for the day. Not deep choice, but it is a choice.

If the interrogation process had not choice but a problem, you would not continue the interrogation/story until your paragon/renegade was high enough. Now you have no choice but to bring it high enough for you to activate the sequence.

ME2 has MANY choices, but not very many deep ones. As for your actions changing the galaxy. I doubt illium will care much of what you did in tuchanka unless it effects them directly. I doubt illium has put money on the planet tuchanka.